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      06-18-2011, 05:18 PM   #23
m3keash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Halen View Post
Wtf- the SA at the closest dealer told me BMW doesnt work with Dinan anymore; install, etc.
Is he full of it then?
Not true according to my dealer. My SA, Sales Mgr, and mechanics all encourage it.
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      06-18-2011, 07:33 PM   #24
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Thanks- I'll ask around the regional forum for a better dealer to use then.
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      06-18-2011, 09:41 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB7 View Post
Dealer can chose to void the warranty before it contacts BMW.

Free maintenance has nothing to do with warranty at all.

I was just trying to have more reason backing trackrat. In a way, free maintenance actually does have something to do with our warranty. Given, we get replacement wearable items, such as brake pads and air filters, if we replace item such as those, we voided our warranty put forward by that act (even if they are to spec. or better) because they are provided free of charge, AND BMW's explicit statement in our warranty agreement.
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      06-19-2011, 04:02 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1sexyfd View Post
I was just trying to have more reason backing trackrat. In a way, free maintenance actually does have something to do with our warranty. Given, we get replacement wearable items, such as brake pads and air filters, if we replace item such as those, we voided our warranty put forward by that act (even if they are to spec. or better) because they are provided free of charge, AND BMW's explicit statement in our warranty agreement.

Thats utterly wrong, false and has nothing to do with any act of any country or planet.
No one, and i mean no car maker can void your warranty just because you change your own oil, air filter and brakes!

You get free maintenance on those parts, because its part of customer service, to make you feel like you getting something for free because you spent $70k on a car.

If you bought a $15k VW Jetta, you get 3 free oil changes. Many car makers give you free oil changes. Ten years ago, you would negotiate free oil changes with your dealer while you negotiate car price. Now you its just free to make the car buying experience more pleasant and easy to make you feel like you got more then what you payed for.
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      06-19-2011, 05:04 PM   #27
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I wasn't saying you couldn't change them with the OEM equipment. I was trying to state that for aftermarket parts. Given, those items are still free with our maintenance. We cannot replace our airfilter or brakes with anything but OEM equipment.
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      06-19-2011, 05:26 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1sexyfd View Post
I wasn't saying you couldn't change them with the OEM equipment. I was trying to state that for aftermarket parts. Given, those items are still free with our maintenance. We cannot replace our airfilter or brakes with anything but OEM equipment.

Yes you can!

Your local parts store sells brakes and air filters that are not OEM, you and I can buy those parts and install them, and BMW WILL NOT void our warranty. BMW will simply not give you warranty for the Air filter or the brakes that you bought, everything else will still be under warranty.
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      06-19-2011, 06:31 PM   #29
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“No warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer's using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the [Federal Trade] Commission if –

(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and

(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest. The Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit public comment on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal Register its disposition of any such application, including the reasons therefor.”


Under this federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on your motor vehicle, is prohibited from requiring you to use a particular brand of air filter, oil filter, or other service or maintenance item, unless such item is provided, free of charge, under your warranty or unless the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) waives this prohibition against the manufacturer.



No warrantor may condition the continued validity of a warranty on the use of only authorized repair service and/or authorized replacement parts for non-warranty service and maintenance. For example, provisions such as, "This warranty is void if service is performed by anyone other than an authorized 'ABC' dealer and all replacement parts must be genuine 'ABC' parts," and the like, are prohibited where the service or parts are not covered by the warranty. These provisions violate the Act in two ways. First, they violate the section 102(c) ban against tying arrangements. Second, such provisions are deceptive under section 110 of the Act, because a warrantor cannot, as a matter of law, avoid liability under a written warranty where a defect is unrelated to the use by a consumer of "unauthorized" articles or service. This does not preclude a warrantor from expressly excluding liability for defects or damage caused by such "unauthorized" articles or service; nor does it preclude the warrantor from denying liability where the warrantor can demonstrate that the defect or damage was so caused.”
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      06-19-2011, 07:03 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
^^^^ Catless DPs are an obvious alteration because they have no CATs. In addition to violating your warranty they also violate EPA regs. The vehicle's engineered specifications means the exact design specifications of how the vehicle was produced and delivered by BMW.

In regards to your comment on buying "any exhaust system" for $1,000 this is incorrect. You can buy any OE spec replacement exhaust system designed to be a direct replacement service part of the same engineered specification, i.e. not an alteration, (Mod) of the original design specifications of the vehicle. Any component designed to alter, i.e. change the engineered specifications, which a high flow DP system is, constitutes an "alteration" as the component is not designed to be an exact OE spec replacement service part. That term "alteration" was added to the Conditional Contract new vehicle warranty terms and conditions to differential between OE spec service parts and Mods, aka "alterations".

A proper OE spec replacement service part is not an alteration and is covered by the MM Act. A dealer does not need to "test" a vehicle's "alteration" to determine if it is an alteration. If the component is not a genuine BMW specific part for the application or an OE spec replacement service part for the specific application, then it constitutes an "alteration". This is typically easy to confirm visually. If there is any question it would be the vehicle owner's obligation to prove the component is an OE spec replacement service part and not an "alteration".



Here is where the issue is as to why you dont understand the warranty.


A dealer, cannot force EPA laws or any laws, a dealer can only follow laws. So if i asked a dealer to remove catalytic converter, they would not do it. But if they saw that you dont have catalytic converters while they were doing an oil change, the dealer would not call EPA or State Police to report you.

If you took a jack hammer and started taking weight off of engine, then that would void your warranty under you so called "vehicle's engineered specs" and under a bunch of whole other things.

Now an Engine is the same in US as it is in Europe. The difference between US car and European car is ... emissions. US cars have to have Catalityc converters or no one can sell cars in US.

The engine was not designed around catalytic converters. The catalytic converters were designed to work with specific engine.
Thus removing them cannot void your warranty as they were never part of the original design.


The only circumstance under which the vehicle manufacturer can void the warranties is if an aftermarket part is responsible for the warranty claim.


Clean Air Act Warranty Provisions (42 U.S.C. S 7541 (C) (3) (B))

The federal Clean Air Act requires vehicle makers to provide two emissions-related warranties -- a production warranty and a performance warranty. The production warranty requires the vehicle maker to warrant that the vehicle is designed, built and equipped so that it conforms with emissions requirements at the time of sale. The performance warranty requires the vehicle maker to warrant that the vehicle will comply with applicable emissions requirements as tested under state vehicle emissions inspection programs for the warranty periods specified in the law (for model year 1995 and later vehicles, the warranty is 2 years/24,000 miles for all emissions-related parts and 8 years/80,000 miles for the catalytic converter, electronic emissions control unit and on-board diagnostic device). The performance warranty is conditioned on the vehicle being properly maintained and operated.

Like the Magnuson-Moss Act, vehicle manufacturers may not refuse warranty repairs under the Clean Air Acts performance and defect warranties merely because aftermarket parts have been installed on the vehicle. The only circumstance under which the vehicle manufacturer can void the emissions warranties is if an aftermarket part is responsible for (causes) the warranty claim.
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      06-19-2011, 07:43 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB7 View Post
Like the Magnuson-Moss Act, vehicle manufacturers may not refuse warranty repairs under the Clean Air Acts performance and defect warranties merely because aftermarket parts have been installed on the vehicle. The only circumstance under which the vehicle manufacturer can void the emissions warranties is if an aftermarket part is responsible for (causes) the warranty claim.
Even a 'racing' filter (like K&N) can be considered an alteration from stock, so the burden of proof would be on YOU. And good luck winning an argument with the manufacturer in front of a jury which most likely doesn't know anything technical about cars. And by the way, the majority of claim denials I've read have been derived from a bad installation, not the parts themselves. So you have TWO things to worry about every time you change something on the car.

Tinkering with an expensive car with complex electronics during warranty is a very stupid move IMO, but to each his own. At least poeple doing that should understand the risks.
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      06-19-2011, 07:59 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Even a 'racing' filter (like K&N) can be considered an alteration from stock, so the burden of proof would be on YOU. And good luck winning an argument with the manufacturer in front of a jury which most likely doesn't know anything technical about cars. And by the way, the majority of claim denials I've read have been derived from a bad installation, not the parts themselves. So you have TWO things to worry about every time you change something on the car.

Tinkering with an expensive car with complex electronics during warranty is a very stupid move IMO, but to each his own. At least poeple doing that should understand the risks.

Under federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on your motor vehicle, is prohibited from requiring you to use a particular brand of air filter, oil filter, or other service or maintenance item, unless such item is provided, free of charge, under your warranty or unless the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) waives this prohibition against the manufacturer.

This is applies to K&N filters.
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      06-19-2011, 08:48 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Even a 'racing' filter (like K&N) can be considered an alteration from stock, so the burden of proof would be on YOU.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB7 View Post
Under federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on your motor vehicle, is prohibited from requiring you to use a particular brand of air filter, oil filter, or other service or maintenance item, unless such item is provided, free of charge, under your warranty or unless the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) waives this prohibition against the manufacturer.

This is applies to K&N filters.
Because BMW provides free maintenance and, therefore, the air filter is provided free of charge, would this then suggest that the Federal Statutes you reference are not applicable, as noted in the quote? If that's the case, BMW could require you to use a certain filter, etc.

For sake of clarity, I'm no lawyer
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      06-19-2011, 09:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Because BMW provides free maintenance and, therefore, the air filter is provided free of charge, would this then suggest that the Federal Statutes you reference are not applicable, as noted in the quote? If that's the case, BMW could require you to use a certain filter, etc.

For sake of clarity, I'm no lawyer

What you thinking, is that because you get free maintenance then the dealer will deny you warranty. Because thats exactly how the FTC law sound like.

What it says is; If the dealer gave you a free filter, then dealer can deny you warranty if they wish to, because they are the once providing you with that part, because its FREE. FREE is the key word. If you paid money for it, then they cant deny you warranty, because there was an exchange of money and good/s with your dealer.
But, dealer is not going to deny you warranty when they have provided you with their own part even if its free.



The dealer cant deny you warranty because you bought a filter made by Mr Magoo.


Once again.
Free maintenance is there to make your life easier and to make you feel special that car maker has done something nice for you. Its an incentive to buy their vehicle.
Not every car maker gives you free maintenance, some give you a coupon book with $5 or $20 off that you can use towards oil changes and filter changes. Some give you nothing at all.
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      06-19-2011, 10:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schnell325 View Post
Thank god my warranty is done next May 5th..............
I never understood this whole concept of waiting until warranty is expired before modding.

If you wait until it expires and slap a supercharger on and blow the engine up = you pay for a new engine.

If you buy a new car and slap a supercharger on immediately and blow the engine up = you pay for a new engine.

In either case, you pay for a new engine. The only difference in waiting is, you're slapping a supercharger onto a car with 50K+ miles and you don't get to enjoy a really fast car for the first 50K miles of it's life.
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      06-19-2011, 11:06 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Dan Halen
Wtf- the SA at the closest dealer told me BMW doesnt work with Dinan anymore; install, etc.
Is he full of it then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m3keash View Post
Not true according to my dealer. My SA, Sales Mgr, and mechanics all encourage it.
You have a cool SA and Sales Mgr. While what you say may be true at your dealership, the reality is, Dinan NEVER had ANY relationship with BMW (the car company) and, while some BMW dealers like yours are reasonable and lenient when it comes to warranty on cars equipped with Dinan products, BMW (the car company) NEVER warranted or supported Dinan products.

Here's the link to Dinan's warranty. Dinan provides the warranty on breakdowns and failures caused by Dinan's mods, not BMW. If a Dinan mod leads to damage to your car, the BMW dealer may do the repair, but they will submit their request for payment to Dinan, not BMW... because BMW (car company BMW) absolutely won't cover you if your engine blows because you were running Dinan's performance software.

Note, Dinan states that the car must be brought to an authorized Dinan dealer not any BMW dealer. Yes, I know many BMW dealers are also authorized Dinan dealers. But, if you happen to go to a BMW dealer who isn't a Dinan dealer, I guarantee you BMW will not be paying for the repairs to your car there if they determine that the Dinan mods caused the malfunction.

But, don't take my word for it. Here's the disclaimer direct from Dinan's own website:

The installation of Dinan Performance Products and systems may affect the vehicle manufacturer’s new car limited warranty. The vehicle manufacturer’s new car limited warranty may not apply to modifications to a vehicle or the installation of any performance accessories or components attached to the vehicle which substantially alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications or which result in damage to other original vehicle manufacturer’s components.

FWIW, I agree with you that many BMW dealers still sell and support Dinan products... but a local BMW dealer being lenient on warranty work for a customer who bought some Dinan products from them is far different than BMW the car company supporting Dinan products.

For an example of BMW supporting an aftermarket manufacturer check out the relationship BMW has with Alpina.
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      06-19-2011, 11:39 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Wow, not even close... Let me help ya AGAIN.

To start with EPA requirements mandate that no required emissions device be altered, tampered with or removed subject to a fine. Check with the EPA if you still don't understand. Catless DPs are definitely in violation of EPA regs.

All vehicles have engineered design specifications. This includes physical dimensions, material composition and typically performance standards. If you change these "engineered specifications" from the OE car makers specs you have altered the vehicle's engineered specifications. This is the very definition of "alteration".

A car maker is NOT voiding the Conditional new vehicle warranty based on the Clean Air Act nor the MM Act, they are voiding the specific portion of your new vehicle warranty that is impacted by the warranty alteration clause - which is an enforceable clause clearly stated in your new vehicle warranty, just like abuse and proper maintenance requirements.

I find it amazing that so many people have such a diffcult time understanding their new vehicle warranty when it's in clear English. It's worth reiterating again that no car manufacturer can be forced to warranty a vehicle where the vehicle's engineered specifications have been altered to a form in which it was never sold. Why would anyone even expect a car maker to warranty a Modded vehicle? The whole point of Modding is the "alter" the vehicle's engineered specifications, which is prohibited in the new vehicle warranty terms and conditions? DUH !


EPA has nothing to do with your vehicle warranty!
EPA does not enforce your warranty.
FTC enforces and it clearly written above; that all car makers have to provide warranty for all emission parts that a car maker has installed.
EPA enforces emission laws only!

What EPA can do and will do, is not pass your vehicle when you take your emission test if you remove your catalytic converter. Nothing more, nothing less.

Catalytic converter actually hinder the function and performance of an engine. This is why Europe has no Catalytic converters, they use other means to meet emission laws. But the engine design is still the same here in US and in Europe.
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      06-19-2011, 11:45 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlterZgo View Post


But, don't take my word for it. Here's the disclaimer direct from Dinan's own website:

The installation of Dinan Performance Products and systems may affect the vehicle manufacturer’s new car limited warranty. The vehicle manufacturer’s new car limited warranty may not apply to modifications to a vehicle or the installation of any performance accessories or components attached to the vehicle which substantially alter the original engineering and/or operating specifications or which result in damage to other original vehicle manufacturer’s components.

.
The key word here is "may" affect your warranty. It doesnt mean 100% for a fact that the dealer will void your warranty.
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      06-20-2011, 12:57 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
I see you're still technically confused... I didn't state that the EPA had anything to do with the new vehicle owner's warranty provided by the car maker. I said it was illegal to remove the CATs, which it is as noted by the EPA documents below. In addition, as previoulsy stated, the EPA fines you for any alteration or removal of Federally mandated emissions controls.

What I explained to you in the prior posts, just as in this post is technically correct and your beliefs on the BMW new vehicle warranty are incorrect and unsupported.

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resour...hsysrepair.pdf

"... the void left where the vehicle owner removed the converter is considered by the Agency to be part of the act of tampering. It is a violation of section 203 (a) (3) (A) for an owner to remove a converter from his own vehicle. Section 203(a)(3)(A) clearly prohibits all individuals from removing or rendering inoperative any emission control device or element of design. If a repair facility completes, assists, or participates -in this act of tampering begun by someone else, it has also acted in violation of section 203(a)(3)(A) of the Act and by installing a defeat device has violated section 203(a)(3)(B)."

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resour...lty-policy.pdf

It's very clear that if your new vehicle warranty is important to you then you should not alter the vehicle's engineered specifications. If you don't care about the new vehicle warranty then Mod to your hearts content.

This ain't rocket science folks. Read your new vehicle warranty terms and conditions.

You have repeated exactly what i have already said in fewer words. Thanks.


Once again to sum things up.
You will not lose your warranty if you or your local shop (not your dealer or any car dealer) removes catalytic converters and installs straight pipe/s.
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      06-20-2011, 02:10 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Your understanding of the subject is incorrect - STILL.

I did NOT agree with you as your statements are incorrect. If you actually read the EPA documents you will see it is illegal to remove the CATs and that they can fine you.

If you read the new vehicle owner's warranty, you will see that alerations to the vehicle's engineered specifications, void the relevant specific section of the warranty impacted by the alteration. Removal of the CATS is an alteration and does violate the new vehicle warranty terms and conditions.

So to summurize you would lose on BOTH counts if you remove the CATS.

The terms and conditions of the warranty are quite clear. Mis-quoting me does not change reality, nor the warranty terms and conditions, nor the EPA regs and fines.

If by chance English is a second language for you then you should have someone with the proper technical expertise that speaks your native language, explain the new vehicle warranty to you or you should contact BMW for clarification because your technical understanding is incorrect.
Please provide me with recorded data where it clearly states that removing cats and replacing them with straight pipe damages your engine. Or, provide us with data where it clearly states that having no cats on any car damages any engine.

Thanks.

p.s.

The topic is about warranty, not emission laws.


P.P.S

I'm holding my breath for you to provide me with data that i have asked for above.
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      06-20-2011, 08:40 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
Quote from the BMW warranty as posted previously by 1sexyfd:

“Damage which results from negligence,
improper operation of the vehicle, wear and
tear or deterioration due to driving habits or
conditions, improper repair, environmental
influences, flood, accident or fire damage, road
salt corrosion, alteration, installation of
non-genuine BMW accessories, or use of
improper, poor quality or contaminated fuel”

What part of the warranty clause "alteration" do you NOT understand? The warranty states that "alterations" can void the warranty. Removal of the CATS is an alteration of the vehicle's engineered specifications - as I've explained to you over and over.

It's unclear if you are really this technically illiterate or you're just pretending to be? Being in denial does not change your new vehicle warranty terms and conditions. You should contact BMW and have them explain these to you.

Im still holding my breath.
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      06-20-2011, 11:56 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrackRat View Post
He's in denial. He thinks if he keeps posting meritless comments, his new vehicle warranty will change to allow "alterations".

Perhaps he should join the folks below?

http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

Since you are so great at insulting people i will repeat my self very slowly so you can understand with that awesome brain of yours.


There are no catalytic converters in Germany on cars
There are no catalytic converters in Germany on cars.
There are no catalytic converters in Germany on cars.

German Engines are designed with out Catalytic Converters.
German Engines are designed with out Catalytic Converters.
German Engines are designed with out Catalytic Converters.

Installing Catalytic converters "alters" the original design of the vehicle.
Installing Catalytic converters "alters" the original design of the vehicle.
Installing Catalytic converters "alters" the original design of the vehicle.


If you understand this, jump on your left foot and blink three times.
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      06-20-2011, 12:37 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KGB7 View Post
Since you are so great at insulting people i will repeat my self very slowly so you can understand with that awesome brain of yours.


There are no catalytic converters in Germany on cars
There are no catalytic converters in Germany on cars.
There are no catalytic converters in Germany on cars.

German Engines are designed with out Catalytic Converters.
German Engines are designed with out Catalytic Converters.
German Engines are designed with out Catalytic Converters.

Installing Catalytic converters "alters" the original design of the vehicle.
Installing Catalytic converters "alters" the original design of the vehicle.
Installing Catalytic converters "alters" the original design of the vehicle.


If you understand this, jump on your left foot and blink three times.
well... whether you're right or wrong, you better hope you don't end up in the USA with an engine problem and a modified exhaust. Or you better have a really good lawyer and a deep wallet if you wish to fight BMW and prove your point.
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      06-20-2011, 12:48 PM   #44
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Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Siberian Prison

Posts: 824
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
well... whether you're right or wrong, you better hope you don't end up in the USA with an engine problem and a modified exhaust. Or you better have a really good lawyer and a deep wallet if you wish to fight BMW and prove your point.
I have lived in USA for over 20 years.
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