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      06-30-2011, 06:34 PM   #23
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I have not read all of the posts, and i may be putting my opinion where it doesnt belong. But the picture in the first post of the thread are of a BRAND NEW set of ps2's, you can tell by how smooth the tread is.

On another note I have a set of 265/35/19 ps2's that do not have the star. They have 5.7-6.0 of the 8.5/32 that the tires come with. I have not checked the date code on them, but they were bought from tire rack in april or may. I am considering selling them....
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      06-30-2011, 06:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the///Mthree View Post
I have not read all of the posts, and i may be putting my opinion where it doesnt belong. But the picture in the first post of the thread are of a BRAND NEW set of ps2's, you can tell by how smooth the tread is.

On another note I have a set of 265/35/19 ps2's that do not have the star. They have 5.7-6.0 of the 8.5/32 that the tires come with. I have not checked the date code on them, but they were bought from tire rack in april or may. I am considering selling them....
Actually, after looking - I agree. The tires in the first pic are not the same, or at least from the same time period. You can tell the tread is worn more on the pair Mike received - especially on the outside.
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      06-30-2011, 07:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironring Racing View Post
I can go through the math a third time for you on the tread depth, even Kitw is reserving comment because it's clearly visible in your own picture, but in the end, unfortunately, it looks like they got damaged in shipping. Or they're the only Michelin's in the entire world that are allergic to sunlight! lol, seriously!
I'm going to stop you right there. Beyonce is...



http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=30

"Because all tires are made of rubber, all tires will eventually exhibit some type of cracking condition, usually late in their life. However, this cracking can be accelerated by too much exposure to heat, vehicle exhaust, ozone and sunlight, as well as electric generators and motors (that have armature brushes)."

If you store them in your garage, in a place where they are next to any kind of electric motor, they will decompose much faster. As I've said, this has happened to me.

"The anti-aging chemicals used in the rubber compounds are more effective when the tire is "exercised" on a frequent basis. The repeated stretching of the rubber compound actually helps resist cracks forming. "

Like I said before, the tires are unsafe, and this is not UPS's fault. I can't say for sure if they were like this before you shipped them, but I never would have tried to sell tires that looked like that. I am going to take the high road and assume that if you'd seen cracks like that, you wouldn't have either.

Glad you guys came to a resolution, clearly sucks for both parties.

Also, lesson for the rest of M3 post... ask for and expect good quality pictures. I can take them with an iPhone, I just need enough light.

Wear bars are at 2/32s or 1.6mm. These mark the end of the usable life of a tire. On the PS2, this gives 5.1mm of useful life. at 2.5mm of tread above the wear bar, this is only 4.1mm of tread left. That's 59%. At 3mm of tread above the wear bar, that is 4.6mm or 68%. However, if you compare those with the useable life of the tire, which is over once you hit the wear bars and the tires are no longer street legal, you get 49% to 58%.

What can we all take away from this post? Buying or selling tires with less than 50% of their life probably aren't worth the risk and shipping cost unless you can inspect them in person. If I was expecting to see a tire with 70% left and I got one with 49% left, I can see how I'd be upset, cracks withstanding! (Again, not saying the OP did something wrong, just demonstrating how perspectives can be skewed!)

(this is yet another reason why the PSS is so much better, it comes at 10/32nds rather than 8.5/32nds) Probably why people say that the PSS and the CS3 are not as "sharp" feeling as the PS2... almost 18% more tread!

I sold a set of PS2s here with 8k miles on them. They had 7/32nds and 5/32nds of tread on them, or 5.6mm and 4mm of life left. 3 mm and 2.4 mm above the wear lines.




They look, at least to me, that I had a bunch more tread on my tires than you did on your's.

Anyway, sounds like you guys already worked this out, just wanted to make sure that anyone who comes across this in the future had good reference points, etc.
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      06-30-2011, 09:18 PM   #26
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Everyone, thank you so much for your input. I really appreciate all of the help this board has given me.

I purchased a tire depth gauge today to use on these tires. While the cracked tire has about 3mm tread depth (which is only 35% tread life), the non cracked tire has a little bit more tread at 4mm.

I am posting the pictures below. Regardless of whether UPS cracked the tires or not (which I personally do not believe so), there is no where near 70% tread on these tires as advertised. At some points on the outer edge there is 4mm. But when tread depth is advertised, it's MINIMUM tread depth. Even at the outer portion of the tire, there still isn't 70% tread left as advertised. The last picture below measures the second tire, which is visually in much better condition that the cracked one (not to mention more tread everywhere). The plastic bag surrounding the cracked one was ripped off during transit, however, it doesn't appear to me that this would have caused the tire to incur any damage during its trip.

I think Josh will step up to the plate given this information and refund my money accordingly. Josh, please contact me when you see this - I left you a VM. I will update the thread as I hear back from Josh.

I want to make a final note that I don't believe that he intentionally misrepresented these tires. Seems like a good guy other than a major slip up on the phone which he apologized for. However, if I was selling them, I certainly wouldn't have let them go out the door to another BMW enthusiast.

I hope everyone benefits by learning a little bit about tire tread, depth, condition, and measurement from reading this thread. I will report back once I receive a full refund from Josh.
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      06-30-2011, 09:54 PM   #27
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Clearly not 70% tread remaining. Hopefully the two of you can work this out.
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      07-01-2011, 01:35 AM   #28
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Yes, refunded his paypal payment.

The past pic you posted at least looks like the rubber I shipped. It's a moot point, as I'll see when the tires get back here, but what was the extent of the cracking then?
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      07-01-2011, 02:30 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironring Racing View Post
Yes, refunded his paypal payment.

The past pic you posted at least looks like the rubber I shipped. It's a moot point, as I'll see when the tires get back here, but what was the extent of the cracking then?
I received the refund. Thank you for being a legitimate person.

As far as the cracking, the tires were taped up in the plastic again, I couldn't tell. I think only that one tire was cracked on that one spot. I'm actually lucky it was delivered with that side up or I probably wouldn't have noticed.

As far as I know it's only the tire that come out of the plastic that was beat up, the other one looked much better (the last pic I posted).

Thanks again for refunding the payment and please let us know what the outcome is with UPS if you do decide to file a claim.

Mike
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      07-01-2011, 03:12 AM   #30
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^ OP congrats on being a good person. Thanks!
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      07-01-2011, 03:01 PM   #31
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I've always been a legitimate person, lol.

It's all over and done now, but just so I'm (we're) clear.

When they arrived, Mike only actually looked at ONE tire, the one that had the packing bag shredded/ripped off (there goes the white gloves theory), was the ONLY tire you actually looked at when you first complained. So again, where the bag had been ripped off by UPS there were the cracks you took a picture of above, which were the only cracks in the tires.

Kitw, does that sound like they were improperly stored, surrounded by ozone, sunlight, blasted by acidic kitten breath? No, it doesn't. Sounds like, just like I said from the beginning, that UPS damaged one corner by crushing it.

Singletrack, are you serious, glad to see you could butt out, that lasted for what, 104 minutes? And as Mike has finally posted, (after actually looking at the second tire for the FIRST time yesterday) it was clean, it was stored in a clean dry basement. The cracked tire was torn, dirtied, and crushed by UPS. I'm sure the irony of your ignorance comment is lost on you, but you go on putting the lotion in the basket and lubing up those road rubbers, give me a shout when you find zip lock bags that big.

So Mike, after you admitted you hadn't even so much as looked at the other tire, AFTER stating "these" were beat to shit (which without the UPS damage was in fact wrong), "they" were in worse condition than what's currently on your car (which we discovered that without the UPS damage was in fact wrong), that after catching you first lying about talking to "tire experts", then when you did actually talk to someone??? having to correct your "tire expert", who was wrong, on the simple math of tread depth, and not mentioning anywhere that the cracked tire came out of the UPS truck beat to shit, even moreso DEFENDING UPS and, even worse, telling their/your UPS "hand delivered" story AFTER you'd seen the damage to the tire and tire bag?!?

It's pretty obvious, again in your own picture, that the tread block on the outside has well over 2.5mm above the wear bar. I've never had a set of tires wear out in the middle, I always check and judge life left by the outer blocks, especially on cars running this much camber. If it's lower tread in the middle, the original owner had too much pressure in the tire. If you put the correct pressure in, you'll wear out the outer edge, so that's the depth I quoted, I measured, and I sent you several pictures of. Again, I know you think you know what you're talking about because you bought a car... but just as I wouldn't attempt to correct you on module programming, it's been an exercise in frustration having to constantly correct you on this.

If owning something made you an expert in it, you wouldn't have a job with SAP or module programming. Glad you got a cheap education out of this, thanks for sucking days of my time for a UPS problem, posting on here and making it a forum discussion, not giving all the information, in fact lying several times, and generally wasting my time with what should have been a simple UPS claim a week ago.

So yes, after all that, I gave Mike a full refund, including shipping. Now I've got a fucked up set of tires on the way back, and a whole lot of anger I'm going to have to take out in the ring next week.

Kitw and Single, thanks for sticking your noses in, adding nothing, and only making the situation worse. I'm sure both of you haven't learned your lesson.

Mike, keep it off the forum next time. Seriously, PM, call, and give more than 120 minutes for a response.

In the end, this was clearly a UPS problem, and because of your careless post, your misinformation and withholding important details for days, you've wasted everyone's time.
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      07-01-2011, 03:17 PM   #32
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Buyer Beware!

I just got into a long argument over the phone.. somehow we on the forums are "retards" according to Josh, and the people who work at tire shops dont know how to measure tires properly.

I have given him the benefit of the doubt MULTIPLE times, and instead of apologizing and admitting that he made a mistake in measuring the tires, he is gung-ho that he did nothing wrong and that the tires were measured correctly. He is also certain that UPS caused this damage when all of the evidence is to the contrary. I never claimed to be a tire expert, but I can use a tire gauge to measure tires properly. It's not rocket science. And the tread wear on my current tires has nothing to do with this. You have a habit of sidestepping the situation at hand and incorporating unrelated factors.

All I have to say is that the pictures say 1,000 words, and that he seems stuck on trying to pawn this off on UPS. He told me that the inside of the tire shouldn't be measured, but only the part that is supposed to hit the ground on a car that runs negative camber. He has raised concerns that I am incapable of using a ruler, and that the tire gauge was not necessary. He states that only the outside of the tires should have been measured, and they are at 4mm as advertised. Josh, 70% of 8.5/32nd's is .1859375" or 4.72mm. So even at the OUTER, LEAST worn part of the tire, they still were not as advertised. This is a moot point anyway because there were parts that were 3mm. Man up and learn to take responsibility. The correct way to measure tires is with a TIRE depth gauge, NOT a ruler.

I have withheld all of these statements previously to give him the benefit of the doubt, but at this point after the phone call I received and more disparaging remarks, this should be put out there. In the conversation yesterday he asked me if I was blowing the UPS guy. To his defense, he did apologize for making that statement in a subsequent phone call. However, that is completely unprofessional and unwarranted.

Here is the voicemail he left me for everyone to hear. You can hear his non-chalant demeneour and attitude regarding this transaction. Seems as if this is being pawned off on UPS.

http://exservers.com/tires.WAV

Everyone is wrong except him for selling tires advertised with 70% tread, which arrived cracked with ~35% on some areas. Did UPS wear out the tread too in the week that they had them? Maybe the UPS truck driver installed the tires on his truck and made deliveries on them, and then took them off to deliver to me? Comical..

Once again, I've tried to play nice Josh, but your attitude has pushed me over the edge. That is why this post is here. Part of being a grown-up is accepting responsiblity when you make a mistake. You seem to resort to personal attacks instead of looking at the FACTS of the situation. In thousands of internet dealings with fellow BMW enthusiasts, I have not been met with this much difficulty before. At the end of the day, he did refund my money, and that's what matters. It's comical to me that we are the people that wasted everyones time - he didn't waste any time by sending completely misrepresented tires that were advertised to have 70% left. It's everyone elses fault according to his previous post..

Good luck everyone. And please take this situation as an example to excercise caution when buying used tires online.
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      07-01-2011, 04:28 PM   #33
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Talk about sidestepping. No mention of the multiple lies, misinformation and lack of information.

Funny how the only part of the tire that was cracked was the part that came off the UPS truck with the packing destroyed, but since you only actually looked at one tire, how could you know. Didn't stop your from posting that both tires were cracked.

Lie.

Said you talked to the "tire experts". Then admitted you hadn't.

Lie.

Then when you did, the info he gave you was wrong. Then you admitted he didn't actually know and had to call someone else, who gave him the wrong info, that he passed onto you. That's what you call and expert?

Lie.

In your last measurement pic we can see the tire that wasn't damaged is clean, looks just like the OP picture, as it should. But you said the TERRIBLE appearance wasn't from UPS (how could you know only having looked at one of them).

Lie.

You measured the center rib of the tire, conveniently don't mention of the measurement on the grove to the left (or right for that matter), that has 4.5mm. You can easily see it in the picture.

Again, if you're running the right tire pressures, it's the shoulder that's going to wear out first, so that's the tread depth I quoted, measured, pictured, posted. What's the point of quoting the part of the tire that isn't going to wear out (if you're running the right pressure).

And you said you'd ONLY send me pics of all angles of the tires to prove the rest of the tires were no cracked, so I could file the UPS claim. Again, another threat to withhold info. I fully refunded, and you didn't send anything.

Several lies Mike.

He e-mails me a menacing picture of my home from metadata he pulled from the iPhone tire pictures I sent him (before the sale btw, the same pictures that are posted above and are of the same tires he took pictures of, so he saw in several pic EXACTLY what he was buying).

Now he's not just lying, he's trying mob style intimidation.

This is the kind of guy I'm dealing with.

The kind of guy that lies, records private phone calls and posts them online, sends picture of my home where my family sleeps.

So yes, threatening my home, you got a full refund, I'm tired of your lies and threats. No wonder I'm mad, and no wonder I'm wondering why you're defending UPS so vigilantly.

"he asked me if I was blowing the UPS guy." Btw, I said I wondered if the UPS guy was blowing you, but your Freudian slip gives us all the insight we need.

And you still defend UPS? Wow, comes out of the truck with the packaging shredded and that's the only part of the tire damaged, but you still don't get it.

When they arrived if you'd shared that info, do you think we'd be yelling at each other?

You know, I don't think I need to TELL everyone who they should do business with, they can figure that out for themselves.
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      07-01-2011, 04:57 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironring Racing View Post
Talk about sidestepping. No mention of the multiple lies, misinformation and lack of information.

Funny how the only part of the tire that was cracked was the part that came off the UPS truck with the packing destroyed, but since you only actually looked at one tire, how could you know. Didn't stop your from posting that both tires were cracked.

Lie.

Said you talked to the "tire experts". Then admitted you hadn't.

Lie.

Then when you did, the info he gave you was wrong. Then you admitted he didn't actually know and had to call someone else, who gave him the wrong info, that he passed onto you. That's what you call and expert?

Lie.

In your last measurement pic we can see the tire that wasn't damaged is clean, looks just like the OP picture, as it should. But you said the TERRIBLE appearance wasn't from UPS (how could you know only having looked at one of them).

Lie.

You measured the center rib of the tire, conveniently don't mention of the measurement on the grove to the left (or right for that matter), that has 4.5mm. You can easily see it in the picture.

Again, if you're running the right tire pressures, it's the shoulder that's going to wear out first, so that's the tread depth I quoted, measured, pictured, posted. What's the point of quoting the part of the tire that isn't going to wear out (if you're running the right pressure).

And you said you'd ONLY send me pics of all angles of the tires to prove the rest of the tires were no cracked, so I could file the UPS claim. Again, another threat to withhold info. I fully refunded, and you didn't send anything.

Several lies Mike.

He e-mails me a menacing picture of my home from metadata he pulled from the iPhone tire pictures I sent him (before the sale btw, the same pictures that are posted above and are of the same tires he took pictures of, so he saw in several pic EXACTLY what he was buying).

Now he's not just lying, he's trying mob style intimidation.

This is the kind of guy I'm dealing with.

The kind of guy that lies, records private phone calls and posts them online, sends picture of my home where my family sleeps.

So yes, threatening my home, you got a full refund, I'm tired of your lies and threats. No wonder I'm mad, and no wonder I'm wondering why you're defending UPS so vigilantly.

"he asked me if I was blowing the UPS guy." Btw, I said I wondered if the UPS guy was blowing you, but your Freudian slip gives us all the insight we need.

And you still defend UPS? Wow, comes out of the truck with the packaging shredded and that's the only part of the tire damaged, but you still don't get it.

When they arrived if you'd shared that info, do you think we'd be yelling at each other?

You know, I don't think I need to TELL everyone who they should do business with, they can figure that out for themselves.
You clearly have some issues that need to be ironed out.. If you keep visually estimating what is or isn't on the tires, I'm sure we could argue all day.

I have no idea why you think I'm threatening you or your family. At no point did I say anything about them, nor would I ever resort to such measures. As I explained to you, I was trying to look up the EXIF metadata from the original picture you posted to determine when it was taken. It didn't have any such data in the file. Looking into the second set of pictures you posted, the metadata had GPS coordinates. I was curious where the tires may have been stored, so I googled it. A picture of that location appeared. I didn't know if it was your house or not. It was simply the location where the pictures were taken. There happened to be a blue e90 in the driveway. I was simply asking if it was yours. It's not related to this at all other than being the spot where you took pictures of the wet tires.

I never said you had to refund me. Although you and everyone else knows I was due one for the junk that arrived on my door step. I simply asked you to refund me and said that I would handle it with American Express/Paypal if you decided not to. Let's stop spinning everything around... Again you try to shift responsibility from yourself by posting pointless banter about me employing mafia style intimidation

The only reason why the voicemail was posted is because you really rubbed me the wrong way when you called me AFTER the refund and AFTER you knew the tires has 3MM at some points and AFTER you knew they were en-route back to Canada and were extremely angry and full of personal insults. I told you to keep it professional and you continued. I then I told you right before I hung up that I would be posting this online so people know who they are dealing with and that's exactly what I did. I never recorded our conversation, it was a voicemail you left on a system that automatically sends a .WAV file to my email so I can check it on the go .

I never lied to you and went above and beyond the call of duty.

I'm sure people will figure out not to do business with you after reading this thread. You could of kept it professional, instead you threw a tantrum.

I really don't have anything against you since I received the refund. I hope you advertise things more accurately if you decide to sell more items on the forums.

Take care.
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      07-01-2011, 05:44 PM   #35
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What a meltdown.

Most people measure the thread in multiple places. If they measure in one, then it is typically assumed to be the LOWEST point.

I still say, as someone else pointed out, that the first picture posted is not the same tires at the time of shipping.
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      07-01-2011, 07:25 PM   #36
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Tires don't simply crack on their own. I wish I could make you understand this, the tires you sold were simply unsafe. I want to believe you didn't intentionally put another member's well-being at risk, but your callous and frankly annoying attitude is pretty trying.

The evidence is clear and your delusions don't change that.
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      07-01-2011, 10:50 PM   #37
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The simple fact is, we agree, 3 year old tires don't crack on their own. If they were in a hostile environment, as you mistakenly thought, why would there only be the single area cracked as Mike's picture shows. There weren't any other cracks, anywhere, on either tire. I'm not talking about them cracking because stuff was stacked on them, I'm talking about the stuff tilting over and folding that part of the tire in half, like an omelet, or bread, and the cracks showing up right where you'd expect them, only on one part of the tire, in the middle where it was pinched.

Look at his last picture, tell me what looks wrong with that rubber, the one that wasn't damaged in shipping?

According to your comments, all the environmental factors you described would produce cracks in both tires, at least on one side (sunlight), if not everywhere (ozone). Please, elaborate? And just so we're clear, your experience with performance tires would be...
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      07-02-2011, 12:18 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironring Racing View Post
According to your comments, all the environmental factors you described would produce cracks in both tires, at least on one side (sunlight), if not everywhere (ozone). Please, elaborate? And just so we're clear, your experience with performance tires would be...
Cracks do not form as a result of mishandling.

Credentials? I sold tires as part of the shop I ran. I've run over 100 track days, and have tested and used just about every type of performance tire on the market.

Again, there are photos of different sections of the affected tire. It's toast. Not to mention, you are now avoiding the fact that the tires had much less tread than you specified. Anyway, I'm done. Glad you dealt with it, good for you.
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      07-02-2011, 10:00 AM   #39
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"Cracks do not form as a result of mishandling."

With that foolish comment you just lost all credibility. No form of mishandling can crack a 3yr old tire, lol. The other photo's of that tire simply show it's dirty, from shipping. The other tire, once he finally looked at it, shows the condition they were in when shipped. Same condition as when I took the photos above. Notice you didn't answer how any of your environmental factors would have resulted in one small area of one tire cracking, because they wouldn't, obviously.

For tread depth, we'll see when I get them back and measure the side blocks. Again.
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      07-02-2011, 03:07 PM   #40
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Ironring racing, your for sale picture is of a NEW SET of PS2's and your bitching that this whole mishap isnt in any way your fault. You mis-advertaised what you had.

Mike just came along and thought he was getting a good product from you(who either knew what he was trying to pull or are really just that stupid.

You should quit your bitching, your just making yourself look stupider.

P.S. tires do dry rot thats what happens when they sit around, whether its for a year or 10 it can happen.
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      07-02-2011, 04:16 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironring Racing View Post
"Cracks do not form as a result of mishandling."

With that foolish comment you just lost all credibility. No form of mishandling can crack a 3yr old tire, lol. The other photo's of that tire simply show it's dirty, from shipping. The other tire, once he finally looked at it, shows the condition they were in when shipped. Same condition as when I took the photos above. Notice you didn't answer how any of your environmental factors would have resulted in one small area of one tire cracking, because they wouldn't, obviously.

For tread depth, we'll see when I get them back and measure the side blocks. Again.
Actually, just so everyone else on M3post doesn't get distracted by your misinformation, let me clear the air.

More than likely the entire tire has dry rotted, since it hadn't been used in some time. UPS may have dropped something on one side of the tire, exacerbating the cracks in it, but in order for the tire to crack in the first place, it was already shot.

The moral of the story is : Store your tires properly and don't try to pass off unsafe, low tread depth tires that had no place being anywhere near a BMW on another M3post member. These tires could have easily come apart on the freeway, and you, as a seller who represented the tires as useable, be responsible.
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      07-02-2011, 04:54 PM   #42
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wow...
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      07-02-2011, 09:32 PM   #43
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Another guy nobody invited with an opinion on something he's never seen in person.

Well, good for me that Mike already confirmed that the OP pictures are of the original tires. He had complained (what's new) about a metal bit stuck in the tread (again, used tires, duh), not a puncture, just something in the tread.

Well, what do you know, there it is in the OP pic. Left tire, about half way down on the right tread.

Proving both that the OP pics aren't of new tires (but thanks for the input), and that they are the same tires that Mike received. And before anyone jumps up with the great idea that they were driven in between, A) they don't fit my car, and B) really, someone's going to pay to mount up rubber, to take it off a few thousand miles later, just to sell it for $320? Didn't think so.

Really, if you'd pull your head out, look at Mike's last pic, and the OP pic, it's the same tread.

Nice when the facts back you up in the face of lies.

Kitw, as a Professional Engineer, I have to at least agree with your last comment. It is possible the condition of the rubber was such that an impact/crush/fold would result in cracked rubber. That would explain why nowhere else on the tires are cracked. It's certainly a possibility, one that any seller wouldn't know unless he crushes the tires before he sends them. I guess that's the risk of used rubber (for all of us). Just a reminder, they were bought from an M3 post member, who also advertised them as 70%.

Now given they were used for only a year, and stored in my basement for 18 months (gas furnace, gas water heater, nothing that should hurt the rubber), I give it a very low likelyhood, but it would still have required them to be abused in transit. When I get them back (they're useless anyway), I can try to fold the other side of the tire and see what happens.

That's about the best info I've seen someone else add, thank you. Still think it's a low probability, but we'll see.

And seriously Mike, cut your fingernails, that's gross.
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      07-03-2011, 01:28 AM   #44
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stored in my basement for 18 months (gas furnace, gas water heater, nothing that should hurt the rubber),
Uh, case closed.

from http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=30

"The anti-aging chemicals used in the rubber compounds are more effective when the tire is "exercised" on a frequent basis. The repeated stretching of the rubber compound actually helps resist cracks forming. The tires used on vehicles that are driven infrequently, or accumulate low annual mileage are more likely to experience cracking because long periods of parking or storage interrupt "working" the rubber."
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