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      06-15-2011, 06:52 PM   #1
Ironring Racing
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FS: Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 Rear M3 tires 265/35 ZR19 Non Runflats

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Sold!

Bought M3 rims and tires, just parting out rear rubber. 70% tread left. No cuts, holes, plugs, patches or anything. Good to go, dismounted and ready to ship.

$400 + Shipping (Paypal)

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      06-15-2011, 10:36 PM   #2
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Pmed .. pending transaction..
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      06-15-2011, 10:57 PM   #3
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Let me know if it falls through.
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      06-17-2011, 11:18 PM   #4
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sold to me. thanks
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      06-29-2011, 08:20 PM   #5
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Josh,

Received the tires today. I sent you an email and left you a VM.

They are in TERRIBLE condition. Even the UPS guy called me on the phone before delivery and asked me if I was sure I wanted them.

They are dryrotted and cracked up the middle, and are barely above the wear bars. Looks nothing like the picture in your OP.

Please contact me to resolve this.
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      06-29-2011, 10:00 PM   #6
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ouch that looks bad
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      06-29-2011, 10:06 PM   #7
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Sheesh. Hard to ask $400 for a pair of those with a straight face.
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      06-29-2011, 10:51 PM   #8
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I'm not really sure what to say at this point until I talk to the seller, I havent been able to reach him yet.

These are in worse condition than the tires I was replacing! According to the production number on the tires, they are over three years old..

I have no reason to believe that Josh (the OP) is not a legitimate seller, so I hope he contacts me back ASAP to resolve this matter. The tires will be on the way back to him via UPS tomorrow as I refused the shipment. I paid him $500 including shipping... I don't think they are worth anything remotely close to that.. Not to mention the $50 unexpected customs clearing charge and brokerage fee I would have to cover. Not going to cut it..

Anyone else have 265/35/19 98Y PS2?

A couple more pics of the tires:
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      06-29-2011, 11:34 PM   #9
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DANG! Sorry Mike, that sucks. those tires are hosed. 3 year old tires by themselves aren't too bad, but those look like they were stored in direct sunlight or something. They don't even look like the same tires.
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      06-30-2011, 12:45 AM   #10
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Mike, just got home.

I think your problem is with UPS, not me, there weren't any crack when I sent them!

In your VM you said they didn't have any tread, left. Obviously they do. Did you measure them? As I provided 5 different pictures to you, including the depth measurement with the ruler, plus the Tirerack depth tech details, I'm not sure what you're missing, or were expecting. These are summer tires, not winter radials!

As I e-mailed you, original depth is 8.5/32", or 6.7mm. These are between 4.5-5mm, or 70%. Here's the pic again. The tread wear bars are 2/32", or just under 2mm, meaning there's 2.5-3mm of tread above the tread wear bars. Put another way, the tread bars are flush with the tread at 24% tread remaining, these have 70% as advertised. The difference is only 2.5-3mm, or just over 3/32". I know it doesn't appear like much, but that's what max performance summers are. I'm not sure how else I can explain it!

Like it or not, that's 70% tread depth on PS2's. They don't come with 1/2" of tread depth, they're max summer tires.

Again, you can see in the pics I sent, they're were no cracks, so I'd take it up with UPS. With Canada Post being on strike, I know they're way overloaded, and I wouldn't put it past them to have thrown them on the bottom and squished them.

As for the date, yeah, 3 years is about right. I bought the M3 rims and tires from this forum late 2009, and they were off his 09 M3. That's a 2 year old car now, so 3 years on the tire manufacturer date is about right. As Kitw says, there's nothing wrong with 3yr tires. Again, you bought used tires!?! And btw, the guy I bought them from advertised them as 70% as well, I checked (math and measurement picture is above) and 70% is correct.

They're the same tires in the picture, in fact, unless UPS got them completely dirty, you should still be able to see the area where I cleaned them to take the pictures I e-mailed you, attached again below (you can obviously see the water still drying off). I didn't take a toothbrush to them (they're tires after all!), but they certainly weren't that dusty when sent off. But what do you want, it's international shipping?

I've never used them, they don't fit my car. They were taken off the rims and that's it.

They're used tires, not new?!? With the pictures, measurements, more pictures, tech details of the tread depth, etc, there's nothing else I could do to make it clear what you bought (at the $183 it actually cost me to ship them, the selling price was $320, almost 70% off the price of new ($850+shipping from Tirerack), btw).
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      06-30-2011, 12:56 AM   #11
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I guess you can debate the tread until mike measures it, but those cracks do not look good at all. Looks like the tires were not stored properly. I wouldn't run those on my car.
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      06-30-2011, 02:15 AM   #12
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The picture's are pretty clear, you can see in all of them, even his pics, that's +4.5mm tread, 2.5mm above the wear bars. Put another way, that's just over the thickness of a single quarter (1.5-2mm). Hell, have a look, you can see it in his own picture. The certainly weren't that dusty when I shipped them though.

I'm not sure what Mike was expecting, maybe this is his first time buying used tires, but in one of his original messages to me asking about the tires he thought 70% tread would be 9/32"! lol, that's more tread than brand new?!? I just don't think he understands how little tread is on these tires from stock.

Again, you can see in his own picture that there's 2.5mm above wear blocks. You can see from mine that there's +4.5mm total depth. And his VM to me said they were worn unevenly. Of course, that's the rear camber on the M3; again, USED TIRES! But as you can see from his own pic and my pics, it's a difference of what, 0.5mm left side to right. That's about right for rear tire wear.

From the time of his VM to his post on here, he gave me a whopping 2 hrs to get back, before posting. Thanks Mike.

They look totally dusty, which wasn't the case when I sent them. But the cracks certainly weren't there. You requested, and I put, $300 of shipping insurance on there, I'd be talking to your friend at UPS.

Mike, don't know if you were expecting brand new tires for $320 + shipping, but you got exactly what was advertised, pictured, measured, described, etc. If the tires that are on your car now have more tread block, then who the heck told you they needed to be replaced???

The cracks are from shipping, and you've got all kinds of pics to make the claim. I'm assuming they can't be used like that, but I know I've seen guys with cracks in the sidewalls of their tires and apparently it's fine. So might be worth calling a tire shop to check, but I probably wouldn't run them like that, if they were squished that bad who knows what else might have been damaged in the tire. I'd just do the UPS claim and think about whether you want to buy used again or not in the future. 70% off for only 30% of the tread gone is a good value, and now you know what 70% tread looks like. I know, not much, but that's the nature of this performance tire tread depth, it's not much.
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      06-30-2011, 03:04 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironring Racing View Post
The picture's are pretty clear, you can see in all of them, even his pics, that's +4.5mm tread, 2.5mm above the wear bars. Put another way, that's just over the thickness of a single quarter (1.5-2mm). Hell, have a look, you can see it in his own picture. The certainly weren't that dusty when I shipped them though.

I'm not sure what Mike was expecting, maybe this is his first time buying used tires, but in one of his original messages to me asking about the tires he thought 70% tread would be 9/32"! lol, that's more tread than brand new?!? I just don't think he understands how little tread is on these tires from stock.

Again, you can see in his own picture that there's 2.5mm above wear blocks. You can see from mine that there's +4.5mm total depth. And his VM to me said they were worn unevenly. Of course, that's the rear camber on the M3; again, USED TIRES! But as you can see from his own pic and my pics, it's a difference of what, 0.5mm left side to right. That's about right for rear tire wear.

From the time of his VM to his post on here, he gave me a whopping 2 hrs to get back, before posting. Thanks Mike.

They look totally dusty, which wasn't the case when I sent them. But the cracks certainly weren't there. You requested, and I put, $300 of shipping insurance on there, I'd be talking to your friend at UPS.

Mike, don't know if you were expecting brand new tires for $320 + shipping, but you got exactly what was advertised, pictured, measured, described, etc. If the tires that are on your car now have more tread block, then who the heck told you they needed to be replaced???

The cracks are from shipping, and you've got all kinds of pics to make the claim. I'm assuming they can't be used like that, but I know I've seen guys with cracks in the sidewalls of their tires and apparently it's fine. So might be worth calling a tire shop to check, but I probably wouldn't run them like that, if they were squished that bad who knows what else might have been damaged in the tire. I'd just do the UPS claim and think about whether you want to buy used again or not in the future. 70% off for only 30% of the tread gone is a good value, and now you know what 70% tread looks like. I know, not much, but that's the nature of this performance tire tread depth, it's not much.
Thank you for your response. I have a number of things to say, but first I am going to buy a tire gauge and measure the tires. I also sent pictures to two tire specialists and am waiting for a response from both. I do not think those were damaged by UPS. In fact, the driver told me that these didn't even go on conveyors, that they were transported only by hand. I don't think there is any way in hell UPS cracked them. They look old, dryrotted, and in terrible shape. This is much more about the condition of the tires than the tread depth. These tires were obviously neglected beyond reason and do not reflect what is in your original post.

I am booked solid with clients tomorrow until 5 or 6PM, will respond when I get back. If i take possession of the tires, they won't send them back to you without me paying for return shipping. Based on the measurement I take and what the two tire experts say, they may or may not be going back to you. I will let you know whether the shipment was refused or accepted. I have an inclination they are going back to you, but I'll reserve that until I perform due dilligence.
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      06-30-2011, 03:47 AM   #14
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Ok, let me be clear.

I am not saying the tread depth is one way or another.

But, these tires are not safe to put on a car, and they are junk. 3 year old tires should NOT look like that unless you store them incorrectly, like next to a source of ozone... I only know this because I've done it and had a tire shop refuse to mount tires because they were cracked despite being not that old.

Tires won't crack from having stuff stacked on them. It's not a pressure thing, it's an age thing. No matter what, they are junk. Not assigning blame, I'm just saying for safety's sake, the only place safe to use these are in the garbage. (well, recycling

I've shipped tires and I've had them smashed pretty good and haven't ever had cracking issues from it. These tires look like they were either stored uncovered for a long time or left out in the sun for a long time... or stored next to something they shouldn't.
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      06-30-2011, 04:10 AM   #15
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kitw, you are absolutely correct.

The condition of these tires could not have been caused by UPS's handling in the week it was with them. This looks like long term deterioration and wear over a period of months, caused by incorrect storage or other factors as you mentioned.
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      06-30-2011, 10:34 AM   #16
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Sure, what makes more sense, that somehow, spontaneously, tires that are only 3 years out of the factory mold, tires that ARE DESIGNED TO LIVE THEIR LIVES OUTSIDE SITTING ON YOUR RIMS!!! have dry-rotted?

OR

Just maybe, that UPS, who had them for a week, who would be on the hook for the damage, maybe didn't gingerly transport them, "by hand", all the way from Alberta, Canada to California? Seriously!?!

The math is the math. You can clearly see, in your own picture, that there is the correct tread amount.

3 year old tires don't dry-rot. Hell, look at the ancient rubber strapped onto beaters around the country that's not dry rotted. These aren't pastries, they're design to live outside!!! Sitting on the front lawn for 3 years they should be just fine, because that's the same environment they live on your car, and they simply sat in my basement for 18 months. So from a guy who didn't have a clue what the correct tread depth was (still doesn't), now your a materials expert on rubber composites? No tire, under any conditions, should crack after 3 years. Kitw, sunlight, really, did the tires on your car crack after 3 years? No, they're designed to live outside, and these have been inside for the last 18 months! I'm sorry, do you cover up your wheels everytime you park so they don't get sunlight on them? They're not vampires, they're tires!

Tires are design to see the worst conditions for years-ON YOUR CAR! Don't take a bunch of shipping dust as signs they were unearthed by Indiana Jones. From what you've told me, you've had a quick look at them once when the UPS guy brought them by, and that's it. Even then, your pictures clearly show the advertised tread depth.

Explain to me what conditions you could possibly put tires in for 3 years for that to happen? Outside... no. Inside... no. In the rain... no. In the sun... no. THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO LIVE ON YOUR CAR, and they lived on the original owners car for at most a year, then in my basement.

But you're right, it's much more believable that 3 year old tires did what no 3 year old tire should do in any conditions... or that UPS saw they were tires and stuck them on the bottom of a pile.

I'm sorry you had some image of brand new rubber showing up at your door, with more tread than they leave the factory with, pristine and shiny, but Mike, you bought used tires. I can go through the math a third time for you on the tread depth, even Kitw is reserving comment because it's clearly visible in your own picture, but in the end, unfortunately, it looks like they got damaged in shipping. Or they're the only Michelin's in the entire world that are allergic to sunlight! lol, seriously!
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      06-30-2011, 11:07 AM   #17
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Depends where they were stored in the basement and if they were clean before stored. They also need to be stored in the proper bags.

Ups would have had to douce these in something nasty to do that much damage that quickly.

I agree that the "hand delivered" comment sounds absurd.

Also, your tires will dry rot right on the car if you don't take care of them. They need to be washed at a reasonable interval. If you actually have tires that last 3 years on the car, then it is a good idea to use some kind of uv protectant on them.
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      06-30-2011, 12:22 PM   #18
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How many 5 or even 10 year old tires are rolling around on civics, etc, that have never been touched, much less had UV protectant applied, and aren't cracked.

Are you really suggesting there's ANYWHERE in a basement that's going to be harder on tires than they life they're designed to live on your car? "Need to be stored in the proper bags."

They shouldn't be cracked, period. They weren't cracked, or that dirty for that matter, when I sent them.

If PS2's cracked after 3 years, in any conditions, there'd be a bunch of outraged people.

Let me be clear, I wouldn't be happy if that's what showed up at my door either! I'm not saying you don't have a right to be angry. But seriously, "Hand Delivered" tires that the same UPS guy said weren't even worth picking up. Do you think maybe he made that call because he knew they were damaged?

Mike, you still haven't answered, are they cracked all the way around, or just on one side. Both tires, or just one? In your pictures the one tire doesn't have any cracks, you only show the single pic of cracks.

This has taken way too much of my time for $320. But again, here's a brightened up, zoomed in (iPhone pic, so only so much res) of the pictures I sent you if the tire, showing the wear bars on the CLEAN tires; side by side with your pic. It's the same level of rubber above the bars, about 2.5mm.
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      06-30-2011, 04:53 PM   #19
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And here, side by side my pic and yours showing the same tread.
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      06-30-2011, 05:28 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironring Racing View Post
How many 5 or even 10 year old tires are rolling around on civics, etc, that have never been touched, much less had UV protectant applied, and aren't cracked.

Are you really suggesting there's ANYWHERE in a basement that's going to be harder on tires than they life they're designed to live on your car?
Absolutely - depends on the basement and how they were stored.

It is a best practice to store tires clean and in dry bags in a reasonable environment. It does effect how they age.

Quote:
"Need to be stored in the proper bags."
Ignorance is cool!
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      06-30-2011, 05:48 PM   #21
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I spoke to Josh at length today about the transaction.

We are currently ironing out the details.

I will post back on the thread later with the final resolution.

I want to reiterate that I do not think that Josh has done anything intentionally malicious here. Seems like a good guy. I think he understands my shock when these tires arrived.

Will report back later once I see the tires for the last and final time.
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      06-30-2011, 06:13 PM   #22
Singletrack
4th down; 4th quarter? Renegade.
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Drives: 09 SSII E92 M3; 12 AW X5d
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Pittsburgh, PA

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip View Post
I spoke to Josh at length today about the transaction.

We are currently ironing out the details.

I will post back on the thread later with the final resolution.

I want to reiterate that I do not think that Josh has done anything intentionally malicious here. Seems like a good guy. I think he understands my shock when these tires arrived.

Will report back later once I see the tires for the last and final time.
Glad you are working it out. I will kindly butt out now : )
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