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      03-22-2007, 07:46 AM   #1
T Bone
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Talking Technical Discussion of BMW M3 V8 Engine

There is another thread with pretty pictures, let's discuss this engine technically (as much as a messageboard can)....

Torque: 295 foot pounds peak. This is 77% of the BMW S85 V10. This means the V8 geometry cannot generate as much torque as the V10 per cylinder (this is expected....usually the higher number of cylinders, the more torque per cylinder due to geometry efficiencies)

Horsepower: Since horsepower is a derived or calculated number based on torque, for BMW to get above 400 hp, they needed to increase the redline to 8300 RPM. The spec appears to call out 420 PS or 414 HP

Engine Weight: The weight is 202 kg or 445 pounds. This is 84% of the weight of the S85 V10 engine. This is expected, you cannot expect a perfect 80% of the S85 weight by lopping off 2 cylinders. But also on a relative basis, this is 84 pounds less than the BMW V10, 33 pounds more than the N54 (BMW 335i) and 32 pounds less than the E46 M3 S54 engine....

How it falls together:

It is clear that BMW is going after weight aggressively and specifically, they are going after power to weight. Since the engine only pumps out 295 foot pounds of torque, this will allow BMW to use lighter drivetrain parts.

There was heated debate when the BMW V10 engine specs were released...people didn't think 383 foot pounds of torque was enough. As we have seen the M5 / M6 performance is awesome.

But horsepower is horsepower BUT the 2 critical things for the BMW M3 to really succeed is:

Weight: If BMW can keep this car under 3600 pounds, it is going to rock the RS4

Transmission: This engine is screaming for a close ratio 7 speed gearbox. If BMW launches the M3 with a manual 6 speed, it is going to hurt the perception of the new car. I would wait for a better transmission

Other thoughts???
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      03-22-2007, 07:57 AM   #2
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"Transmission: This engine is screaming for a close ratio 7 speed gearbox. If BMW launches the M3 with a manual 6 speed, it is going to hurt the perception of the new car. I would wait for a better transmission"

+1

More M POWER please!

All this weight saving comes to zero when you have your fat friends and a full tank of gas in the car!
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      03-22-2007, 08:05 AM   #3
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The manual tranny is more efficient, no matter how you want to look at it. More power will make it to the rear tires. As long as it isn't hamstrung like the M5 6-speed, than I don't think anyone who wants a true manual will be disappointed. I concede that the 'other tranny' will likely be faster around a road course. I'm in this for other reasons.

Good thread, btw.
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      03-22-2007, 08:21 AM   #4
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Torque Curve

Looks like the M3 V8 has a flatter torque curve than the M5 V10. This means the acceleration won't be as surgy as it is in the M5 / M6.....

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      03-22-2007, 08:23 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyB View Post
The manual tranny is more efficient, no matter how you want to look at it. More power will make it to the rear tires. As long as it isn't hamstrung like the M5 6-speed, than I don't think anyone who wants a true manual will be disappointed. I concede that the 'other tranny' will likely be faster around a road course. I'm in this for other reasons.

Good thread, btw.
It is not about how the tranny shifts but about 6 gears versus 7 gears. The new M3 engine isn't spitting out gobs of torque so to extract max benefit, you need more gears and take advantage of the revs.....

If M3 came out with a manual 7 speed, this would be good.....but alot of rowing.
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      03-22-2007, 08:26 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
It is not about how the tranny shifts but about 6 gears versus 7 gears. The new M3 engine isn't spitting out gobs of torque so to extract max benefit, you need more gears and take advantage of the revs.....

If M3 came out with a manual 7 speed, this would be good.....but alot of rowing.
I agree with that. I'm curious to see how they space the ratios in both trannys.
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      03-22-2007, 08:38 AM   #7
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Efficiency

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyB View Post
The manual tranny is more efficient, no matter how you want to look at it. More power will make it to the rear tires. As long as it isn't hamstrung like the M5 6-speed, than I don't think anyone who wants a true manual will be disappointed. I concede that the 'other tranny' will likely be faster around a road course. I'm in this for other reasons.

Good thread, btw.
SMG is a "manual" transmission, just controlled by a computer and pneumatics much faster and smarter than you! ZSG is a manual transmission as well. Efficiency of either is >> true automatic (which BMW would never offer in this car). I suspect efficiency of ZSG would be slightly less then SMG becuase of the basic design and having multiple gears engaged simultaneously (albeit then disengaged through 2nd clutch).
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      03-22-2007, 09:51 AM   #8
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Great thread T-Bone.

Edit: I misread your post. So the V8 comes in between the N54 and S54. I.e N54 < M V8 < S54.

So right there, dropping the V8 straight into a 335i body would give you a 3600lb car. Of course, that's not at all what they are going to do. But - just how much below that they can come in remains to be seen. I don't think we are looking at a sub-3500lb car.
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      03-22-2007, 09:55 AM   #9
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when you read the diagram you see a redline at 8400 rpm. The text in pressrelese says 83000 rpm. Which is correct, 8300 rpm or 8400 rpm?
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      03-22-2007, 11:08 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Just_me View Post
when you read the diagram you see a redline at 8400 rpm. The text in pressrelese says 83000 rpm. Which is correct, 8300 rpm or 8400 rpm?
8400, my German isn't so good in the mornings....peak power is at 8300.....
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      03-22-2007, 01:59 PM   #11
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Torque Curve

After looking at the torque curve a bit more, damn that thing is flat..... BMW has achieved something that is nearly impossible.... an atmospheric engine with a torque curve like a turbo motor....

It is getting more impressive every minute....
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      03-22-2007, 07:20 PM   #12
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Intake Pipe Fuel Injection

Can anyone share technical aspect of intake pipe fuel injection on the new V8?
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      03-22-2007, 07:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mii View Post
Can anyone share technical aspect of intake pipe fuel injection on the new V8?
No, but surely its here somewhere:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm...gine-in-detail

If you can dodge all the marketing-ese.
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      03-22-2007, 08:02 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mii View Post
Can anyone share technical aspect of intake pipe fuel injection on the new V8?

I believe you are asking about the 8 individual butterflies throttle bodies.....If you are....

BMW M engines (except the E36 USA spec M3) uses individual throttle bodies for each cylinder. With this engine, BMW is stating that to have the absolute best throttle response, it is critical the distance between the butterfly and intake is minimal.

This means you cannot have a mass air flow sensor to meter the air, instead it uses the butterfly position, throttle position, idle adjust etc to infer the air volume etc....

Just a fancy way to preserve responsiveness of the M engines....

Was this what you were asking?
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      03-22-2007, 08:22 PM   #15
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Although BMW has given a lot of effort in weight reduction, i'm still a little disappointed about the torque...the whole thrill of taking off from a standstill is the feeling of being thrown back into your seat and feeling the rush and adrenaline; if the 335i offers 300 lb-ft of torque, i expect more from the M3; however, having said that, I believe in the end the overall package will surely favor the new M3 (taking into consideration the suspension, chassis and handling)
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      03-22-2007, 08:30 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus03 View Post
Although BMW has given a lot of effort in weight reduction, i'm still a little disappointed about the torque...the whole thrill of taking off from a standstill is the feeling of being thrown back into your seat and feeling the rush and adrenaline; if the 335i offers 300 lb-ft of torque, i expect more from the M3; however, having said that, I believe in the end the overall package will surely favor the new M3 (taking into consideration the suspension, chassis and handling)
Torque = Weight
Weight = bad

It is all about the torque curve and not the absolute number. This engine delivers the flatest torque curve I have ever seen for an atmospheric engine. You will be push back into your seat and it will keep you there.
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      03-22-2007, 08:58 PM   #17
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i sure hope you're right t-bone! :rocks:
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      03-22-2007, 09:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
BMW M engines (except the E36 USA spec M3) uses individual throttle bodies for each cylinder. With this engine, BMW is stating that to have the absolute best throttle response, it is critical the distance between the butterfly and intake is minimal.

This means you cannot have a mass air flow sensor to meter the air, instead it uses the butterfly position, throttle position, idle adjust etc to infer the air volume etc....

Just a fancy way to preserve responsiveness of the M engines....
Right on T Bone
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      03-22-2007, 09:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
SMG is a "manual" transmission, just controlled by a computer and pneumatics much faster and smarter than you! ZSG is a manual transmission as well. Efficiency of either is >> true automatic (which BMW would never offer in this car). I suspect efficiency of ZSG would be slightly less then SMG becuase of the basic design and having multiple gears engaged simultaneously (albeit then disengaged through 2nd clutch).

Swamp is correct, the SMG is just as efficient in transferring power to the rear wheels as a manual, since it is a computer controlled manual transmission. Therefore, no reduction in performance.
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      03-23-2007, 03:27 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
It is not about how the tranny shifts but about 6 gears versus 7 gears. The new M3 engine isn't spitting out gobs of torque so to extract max benefit, you need more gears and take advantage of the revs.....

If M3 came out with a manual 7 speed, this would be good.....but alot of rowing.
7-Speed Manual is definitely possible, but is any car manufacturer ever going to produce something like that? I believe 6 gears is the optimal number of gears in a manual transmission.
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      03-23-2007, 03:52 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90330iS View Post
7-Speed Manual is definitely possible, but is any car manufacturer ever going to produce something like that? I believe 6 gears is the optimal number of gears in a manual transmission.
How will they be able to arrange the pattern for the gear box? Surely the traditional 'H' pattern is limited to six forward gears and reverse?
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      03-23-2007, 04:14 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mofomat View Post
How will they be able to arrange the pattern for the gear box? Surely the traditional 'H' pattern is limited to six forward gears and reverse?
Actually, the traditional H pattern was limited to just four gears (three plus reverse). That's why it was called the H pattern. As time went on, they added more. Don't see why you couldn't do seven or eight or however many you want.
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