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      05-26-2011, 08:14 AM   #1
warzilla
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Sold Bad Tires from M3post Member

What would you guys do?

So I brought tires from a fellow member on M3Post. They were Michelin PS2 tires, 19s.

The member is an active member on the forum (I'm not going to name names - at this moment), and had a good etrader record - hence why I was willing to buy these tires for $1200.00 from him. He is located in Atlanta GA, while I was in NJ.

The tires were advertised as pretty new and a few thousand miles on them at best. No issues or defects mentioned in the ad.

The transaction and delivery went smooth.

I get the tires, and they look fine (not mounted on wheels). I bring them to my tire shop (the one I've been going to for years for all my cars), and they mount the tires on my OEM 19 inch rims. Once they mount the tires on my rims, but not yet on the car, my main contact there calls me up. He tells me there are big bubbles on both rear tires. I come by and take a look and yes, theres a huge bubble on each rear tire, both in the inner side of tires. The weird part is that the bubble is in the same exact spot, symmetrically on each tire. My guess, the tires were on a car previously and hit something hard to cause them to bubble at the same spot?

Anyways, I tell the member about the tires and its been an ongoing conversation for months.

First he blamed the tire shop for the bubbles saying they mounted it wrongly and it cause the bubbles on the tires. After talking to my tire guy and asking around, it seems that its a stretch (but would like to get people's view here on this). From what I can tell looking on forums and talking to people that I know who know tires, this is very hard to happen, especially on both tires, and to happening on the same spot.

Then he told me that the Michelin company has a 6-year warranty and will cover the tires for the bubbles as a defect. I went to two separate authorized dealers who looked at the tires, the manufacturing dot dates on the tires and told me that Michelin would not cover these tires for the bubbles (tires were made almost 2 years ago).

So now I have no choice but to buy a new set of tires and told the member that I would like some re-imbusement to help me buy a set of tires (I was planning to buy a set of Hankooks which cost $900.00 at Tire Rack).

Now some things about the member. He has to this point been very communicative and responsive. He feels bad about the situation and initially told me he would be willing to send some money back to me if I went the route of buying new tires (have it in a saved email).

The issue as of now, since I made it clear I am going the route of buying new tires he is crying financial destitute (he is in grad school he claims) and says he has no money to give me but maybe an auto part he has laying around that he has been trying to sell to other members on this forum and maybe send back $100.00 for the mounting costs. I felt it was insultive.

I initially just asked for $300.00 to settle this, and with me selling the front tires (which are fine), I figure I can somewhat cover the cost of the new tires - which is all I want to do now. I'm not a unreasonable guy, and been trying to be fair as possible but I feel we are now at the end of the conversation.

So what would you guys do? Anyone with thoughts/opinions/solutions?
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      05-26-2011, 08:19 AM   #2
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I would send them back to him and get all your money back. Bubbles don't magically appear.

If that wouldn't work, atleast get the two tires with bubbles sent back and get 600 dollars back.
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      05-26-2011, 08:39 AM   #3
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Eff-That. Send 'em back
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      05-26-2011, 08:39 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e92m3allday View Post
I would send them back to him and get all your money back. Bubbles don't magically appear.

If that wouldn't work, atleast get the two tires with bubbles sent back and get 600 dollars back.
Paying more for shipping without any guarantees that he'll get any money back doesn't sound like a good idea. The other way around would work though. Get your money first. Not to be a pain in the a$$, why pay $1200 for used Ps2 when you can get them close to $1400??
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      05-26-2011, 08:49 AM   #5
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Get your money back. That is poor service from the seller. Everyone always give excuses.
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      05-26-2011, 08:50 AM   #6
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Oye, this is why I sh*t my pants when I buy from small time sellers. Can easily get screwed and its an uphill battle to make things right.
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      05-26-2011, 08:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sameh View Post
Paying more for shipping without any guarantees that he'll get any money back doesn't sound like a good idea. The other way around would work though. Get your money first. Not to be a pain in the a$$, why pay $1200 for used Ps2 when you can get them close to $1400??
I couldn't get them for $1400.00, the best price I saw was about $1800.00 at Tire Rack (these are the 19s), but when you include shipping, it would be about 2k, so I thought I would save a few hundred bucks. Obviously it didn't work out that way.
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      05-26-2011, 08:54 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SehrSchnell View Post
This.

Also, he drives an M3 but doesn't have $300? This is why this country is in deep sh!t.
The sad truth. I would be pretty pissed at the whole situation.
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      05-26-2011, 08:55 AM   #9
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Would love to hear stories from anyone who had an issue buying an item from another member, getting a defective product and finding a good resolution. Anything productive like that would be helpful in my case.
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      05-26-2011, 09:58 AM   #10
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Unfortunately for you if the seller/scammer isn't man-enough to stand behind his word you are SOL. Any recourse available through PP?
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      05-26-2011, 10:29 AM   #11
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I'm the member that sold warzilla the tires. I wanted to let everyone know my side of the story before this gets out of hand.

1. I bought a set of ZCP 359M wheels with Michelins with less than 1500 miles on them. They were in perfect condition when I got them and I even made a thread about it. You might even notice in some of the photos that there were no bubbles on the tires. If there were any bubbles on them, I would've noticed as, being the perfectionist that I am, I gave them a full inspection. I couldn’t even drive on them without rubbing on my 335i so I took them off, went to the local Tires Plus, and got them dismounted with no issues.

2. I posted them up on M3Post for sale and advertised them as being in excellent condition with less than 1500 miles of wear. warzilla had contacted me about them. He was insistent on having me sign a bill of sale that he had drafted up before sending me any money. The bill of sale basically says that I am selling him these tires in the condition advertised and that they are sold “as-is”. I signed, scanned, and e-mailed him the bill of sale.

3. He sent me the money via PayPal and I shipped them out via FedEx after giving them a final inspection.

4. They arrived and he got them mounted. Then he sent me an e-mail with a couple of photos showing these giant bubbles on the sidewalls of not one, but two tires! I'm as meticulous as anyone you'll find and if both tires had had two giant bubbles, I would've noticed them when I was test-fitting them on my car! Also, the photos show a few scuffs near the bubbles, which I have circled in red:



5. I talked to Michelin who said they would cover manufacturing defects for 6 years. They said they would not cover bubbles if there were signs of physical damage. I guess warzilla then contacted a Michelin dealer directly to get them checked out and such. They said they can't warranty them for whatever reason.

6. I felt bad and offered to give warzilla some money and my Evosport pulley (worth $250+) as a sign of good faith and just to compensate him for the trouble.

7. Now he is claiming that I sold him defective tires and wants $300. He had threatened to talk about it on the forums, which is why he has made this thread I guess.

8. He also e-mailed me to say that he will get his tire shop to say, under oath, that the tires had bubbles before and after they were mounted on his wheels. If these guys will be as dishonest as to do that under oath, then I don’t even know… Why did they mount them in the first place if they actually did have bubbles? You will notice that this is a complete new twist to the story. He sent me photos after the tires were mounted. How do I know if he drove on them and hit a curb or something and then took them off and sent me those photos?

He also said the equivalent of "you have a lot of mods on your car so I know you can afford the $300" and that I could be a good guy and just pay him. Well, I have tried to help and work with him and this is how I’m rewarded.

The bottom line is, the tires went out with no damage. After they left my hands, it is no longer my responsibility as I don't know how they were handled by anyone else. The bill of sale also says that the tires are sold in "as is" condition. I advertised them as having no damage and they were sent out how I advertised them. Beyond that, if someone pokes a hole in them, sets them on fire, or tries to use them as a flotation device, how is that my responsibility?

I would not knowingly sell anything damaged and these tires were certainly not damaged leaving my hands. Look at my iTrader feedback and my posts. Many members will vouch for me on E90Post. I have been an upstanding member of this community. I have tried to work with warzilla and he makes this libelous thread about me?
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      05-26-2011, 10:50 AM   #12
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Well, I see Nivedh wanted to take this public with his name.

Please note I did not.

Also note as I said in the OP, that the Seller (who outed himself as Nivedh) was very communicative and responsive on all of this.

We can go to all this he said/he said stuff and I'm happy to sort of retort to some of his misconceptions on the events that has transpired, but I would pretty much sum up the issue this way:

- Nivedh posted on this forum tires for sale, with 1500 miles and no issues
- I brought them from him and paid him $1200.00 via PayPal
- I got the tires shipped to my house, no issue and brought the wheels to the tire shop which mounted the tires. They called me immediately before putting them on my car, to tell me that there are bubbles on 2 tires. You can see in the pictures which Nivedh posted and can see that the tires aren't even on my car, but just mounted on the wheels
- In the course of the 1 1/2 months since we have talked on email (and I thank him for conversing with me during the time) Nivedh's position has been
a. Its the tire shop's fault
b. Go to a Michelin Dealer and get new tires under warranty
c. If you can't get resolution, I will get some money back to you for the purchasing of new tires

BTW- this is all documented in emails. Nivedh, please don't dispute this cause then I would be happy to show the emails where you cited these points.

I went thru every possible course, that Nivedh asked me to do, and to this point I have no choice but to get new tires for my car.

This week, I asked to finalize some money back for the tires. I settled on $300.00, which I thought was fair considering he took from me $1200.00 for defective tires and all I want is tires without bubbles. I'm willing to buy Hankooks cause they are cheaper then other tires.

He has cried poverty cause he's in grad school and has $43.00 dollars to give me plus a pulley he is selling on this forum. He later bumped up the offer of cash to $100.00 plus the pulley.

I told him that was insulting and just pay me $300.00 to settle this like two gentlemen. I personally am older then Nivedh (I think) and have a family and a job to deal with. The last thing I need to to deal with is a bad tire deal on M3Post.

So with all this said, Nivedh sold me bad tires. What he calmed on his ad did not end up with what I have in my hands. He doesn't want to have any responsibility with the sale afterward.

As the original purpose of this post, I'm asking anyone else on this forum if anyone has been in a similar situation and if there is a good solution where Nivedh and I can get this settled.

Thank you.
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      05-26-2011, 11:00 AM   #13
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You drafted a bill of sale supposedly and this document says that the tires are sold "as-is" so I don't see how he's in the wrong here. If he offered 100$ plus a pulley of unknown value, I would believe you'd come close to the $300 you want. He doesn't have to give you a dime based on the document you drew up.

With that said, it sucks something awful this happened to you, but look at the guys feedback. If he was out there selling bad tires or whatever, there'd be more than one person blowing him up out there.
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      05-26-2011, 11:11 AM   #14
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You drafted a bill of sale supposedly and this document says that the tires are sold "as-is" so I don't see how he's in the wrong here. If he offered 100$ plus a pulley of unknown value, I would believe you'd come close to the $300 you want. He doesn't have to give you a dime based on the document you drew up.

With that said, it sucks something awful this happened to you, but look at the guys feedback. If he was out there selling bad tires or whatever, there'd be more than one person blowing him up out there.
Actually the Bill has the following language:

----------------------------------

Set of 4 tires. Michelin Pilot Sport PS2 (2x 245/35/19, 2x 265/35/19) for a 2008 BMW M3 Coupe. Tires have less then 1500 miles of wear.

I, the undersigned Seller, do sell the above-scribed tires to the Buyer for the amount shown and certify that all of the information provided in this Bill of Sale is true and accurate to the best of the my knowledge.


I, the undersigned Buyer, acknowledge receipt of this Bill of Sale and understand understood that the above-stated tires are sold “as is” condition.


If tires are not in condition as stated by Seller, Seller will refund money to Buyer.

----------------------------------

So my point on the bill, there is a "as is" statement, but right behind it is a statement that the Seller agrees to refund the money if its not in the condition stated. Seller signed this Bill of Sale.

And again, I'm not asking for a full refund here. I'm not here to break the guy's back or anything. I just want tires without bubbles on them, and willing to settle this for $300.00 with him.

The pulley is useless to me. Why should I get an item and then have to sell it to get my asking price for resolution?

As for the Seller's record, yes its clean. Hence thats why I even went and spent 1200.00 on an item from a member I don't know. But I don't know how many of those items are tires, most of his recorded deals seem to be parts it seems.
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      05-26-2011, 11:17 AM   #15
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given both sides, I think the buyer needs to chalk this up as bad luck. How about settle for cash $150 and call it a day? He said she said...blah blah blah over $300....

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      05-26-2011, 11:36 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by warzilla View Post
So my point on the bill, there is a "as is" statement, but right behind it is a statement that the Seller agrees to refund the money if its not in the condition stated. Seller signed this Bill of Sale.

As for the Seller's record, yes its clean. Hence thats why I even went and spent 1200.00 on an item from a member I don't know. But I don't know how many of those items are tires, most of his recorded deals seem to be parts it seems.
I sent them to you in the condition I stated. When the tires were in my possession, they had no damage whatsoever - no bubbles. That's a fact.

The thing that bothers me the most was that you did not say anything about if there was any damage before you got them mounted but then all of a sudden, you say in your last e-mail that you can get your tire shop technicians to be your witnesses to say that the tires had bubbles before they were mounted on the wheels. In a previous e-mail, you mentioned that bubbles won't show up until you mount and inflate the tires.

Disregarding the conflicting information, not to mention potential dishonesty, if the tires indeed had bubbles before mounting on the wheels:

1. Why didn't you tell me? I would've taken them back. I signed your bill of sale, which I treated as a legal document, saying that the tires were in excellent condition.
2. Why did the tire shop even mount them if they had bubbles before mounting?

There is no documentation that the tires had any damage the moment you received them. How do I know what happened once the tires were mounted?
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      05-26-2011, 11:44 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NiVeDh View Post
I sent them to you in the condition I stated. When the tires were in my possession, they had no damage whatsoever - no bubbles. That's a fact.

The thing that bothers me the most was that you did not say anything about if there was any damage before you got them mounted but then all of a sudden, you say in your last e-mail that you can get your tire shop technicians to be your witnesses to say that the tires had bubbles before they were mounted on the wheels. In a previous e-mail, you mentioned that bubbles won't show up until you mount and inflate the tires.

Disregarding the conflicting information, not to mention potential dishonesty, if the tires indeed had bubbles before mounting on the wheels:

1. Why didn't you tell me? I would've taken them back. I signed your bill of sale, which I treated as a legal document, saying that the tires were in excellent condition.
2. Why did the tire shop even mount them if they had bubbles before mounting?

There is no documentation that the tires had any damage the moment you received them. How do I know what happened once the tires were mounted?
Nivedh. I don't want to get into a he said/he said deal. All I want is a resolution. But if this part is hanging you up, what I wrote was a mistake -

no the tire shop did not see bubbles on the tires before they were mounted but right when they mounted the tires on my wheels. They called me and showed it to me before they even placed it on my car. Obviously they can't see bubbles on tires before they are mounted and inflated onto wheels (or so I've been told).

The only reason I told you that they would be an witness that there was bubbles on the tires when they mounted them on my wheels is that you previously accused me of driving them on my car and causing the bubbles. What I was trying to answer back in that reply was: no - there was bubbles on the tires, mounted on my wheels BEFORE the shop placed the whole wheels/tires on my car. The photos that you cite shows the tires right after they were mounted on the wheels but not on the car.

But again Nivedh, can't we just get this settled like adults? I know you are good guy.

I don't want $100.00 and a pulley. If you can come to another settlement with me, I'll be fine. Like, maybe:

Give me $100.00 and the sale of the pulley or another part you are selling on this forum?

Again, I just want this settled and not get into semantics of what he said/he said.
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      05-26-2011, 11:51 AM   #18
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For future reference the best way to avoid an issue like this is for the seller to take detailed pictures of item before it is shipped. That way there will be no dispute over the condition that they left in. I have been on the receiving end of a similar situation but had no proof that that was the way the item left. My advice is to bite the bullet on this one and ask for dated pictures next time to ensure the condition is as described.
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      05-26-2011, 11:56 AM   #19
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Hi Warren.
I am very sorry that the transaction has not been as smooth as expected thus far. I know Nivedh personally and I can assure you he's the nicest and pickiest fellow E9x enthusiast I have ever known. He is also brutally honest.

Nivedh is the "go-to" guy for us locals when we need a good deal on a specific part and he does an impressive amount of transactions to be a private. This is his passion and he thoroughly enjoys trying new components/upgrades and selling the ones he doesn't need, it is truly his main hobby.

What saddens me about this whole situation is that there doesn't seem to be an apparently simple solution.

These are the hard facts I am working with:
  • 4 Tires paid for
  • 4 Tires shipped
  • 4 Tires received as described (prior to mounting)
  • Rear tires displayed bubbles upon install
  • Bill of sale used

Knowing Nivedh's ethics I would like to give you (Warren) and your shop the benefit of the doubt and look into possible damage during shipping. YES, it's very possible to damage the wall of a tire if it's pinched by a pallet or a poorly parked forklift during overnight storage in the warehouse. Since the tires have no pressure (not mounted), you can see how that would very easily cause sidewall damage (a theory which would be supported by the marks next to the bubbles as seen in your pics).

The problem - Warren - is that it appears you're starting to contradict yourself. How many days have passed by from the time you received the tires to the time you got them mounted? Did you notice any damage upon delivery? If you dismount the tires now, can you spot anything unusual on the surface where the bubbles appear while mounted? Are you seriously stating that you "can get the shop to say under oath that the bubbles were there prior to mounting" even though I understand you stated that the tires looked fine before being mounted (no bubbles)?

YES, I understand that bubbles can appear AFTER you mount them and inflate them, but I am looking at your apparent approach here... tires looked fine but you "can get" the shop to confirm that the bubbles were there before mounting? Based on this attitude alone I would be discouraged to give you and the shop the benefit of the doubt, wouldn't you say?

Warren, I don't know you personally. If I knew you instead of Nivedh (and assuming you and your shop weren't trying to be smart), I would probably have more compassion for your side of the story.

There seem to be way too many variables in play here, so a peaceful solution can be difficult, but I trust you will come to a mutual agreement and remain in good terms.

-Walter
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      05-26-2011, 12:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlChengis View Post
The problem - Warren - is that it appears you're starting to contradict yourself. [...] Based on this attitude alone I would be discouraged to give you and the shop the benefit of the doubt, wouldn't you say?
Warren, I just read and acknowledge your reply in which you tried to address this.

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      05-26-2011, 12:09 PM   #21
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Sorry to intrude, but I assume this is kinda what your tires looked like when you received them:



There is no way you or a shop wouldn't notice that kind of damage and bubbles. And absolutely no way a shop could mount those tires and still not have seen it until finished.

The seller is a good guy and to me it seems he's tried his best to resolve this situation.

You also say that your shop can vouch under oath for those bubbles being there before mounting the tires? That's interesting... either they knew that the bubbles were there and then they should have called you immediately and not mounted the tires. Or they didn't know and then what you are saying is that your tire shop is willing to lie under oath... in which case I wouldn't trust their word for anything anymore

Sorry to bust in like this...
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      05-26-2011, 12:17 PM   #22
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iTrader: (-1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brey335i View Post
Sorry to intrude, but I assume this is kinda what your tires looked like when you received them:

There is no way you or a shop wouldn't notice that kind of damage and bubbles. And absolutely no way a shop could mount those tires and still not have seen it until finished.

The seller is a good guy and to me it seems he's tried his best to resolve this situation.

You also say that your shop can vouch under oath for those bubbles being there before mounting the tires? That's interesting... either they knew that the bubbles were there and then they should have called you immediately and not mounted the tires. Or they didn't know and then what you are saying is that your tire shop is willing to lie under oath... in which case I wouldn't trust their word for anything anymore

Sorry to bust in like this...
A lot of detectives here who seem to be hinging on specific words.

I think I responded to the 'seen bubbles before mounting' point. Please read that post before bringing that up again. Its nice semantics but not focusing on the main issue.

Again, Seller is a nice guy. Seller sells lots of parts on this forum and has lots of positive recommendations. All in agreement. He does seem like a nice guy.

But the point is, he sold me tires with bubbles on them.

Now if you want to tell me that the shop (a professional place that does tire mounting for a living) messed up both tires in mounting of these tires, then lied to me, and showed them to me after they damaged them, then please say so directly.

But I don't believe that is the case.

I talked to them, and another tire shop and other enthusiasts who know tire mounting and they all find it very hard for that to happen during a mounting (especially on two tires? In the exact same spot on the tire?).

Bottom line: I just want to get this resolved.

Last edited by warzilla; 05-26-2011 at 12:30 PM.
warzilla is offline   United_States
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