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      05-25-2011, 01:29 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby_digital View Post
I think the question noone has answered yet, is if the DCT is worth 6+mph more in the 1/4 mph trap speeds, how did AKH with DCT trap 112mph NA, and the other guy with manual M3 trap 113mph with equal NA powered motors? and then the manual ESS s/c car trapped 117 mph (actually 2 ESS s/c'd M3's did that) and AKH trapped 124 mph?

and noone seems to bring up that DLJ was only trapping equally 123 and 125 mph on his setup before he decided to change things around. to get better mph, you have to add hp or drop weight.. and adding hp takes time, octane and boost. dropping weight only takes 30 minutes or so..
You need to read my initial post in this thread. I don't claim to have all the answers, but it's basic stuff really, conditions play a huge roll, just as they do on a dyno, but again we have an accepted CF for a Dynojet, I can't say we do for 1/4 mile times, too many variables.

At Mfest Vegas Speedway the DA was very high 4000', traction was non existent in 1st and 2nd, yet the car still hit 125MPH, at Famoso the DA was much lower 800' and I hit 129, makes perfect sense, there were no major changes, and certainly no change in psi. Famoso is a much faster track than Vegas, hence the trap difference, I would rank Vegas as one of the worst when the DA is positive and that track goes uphill. AS I did before, to put it into perspective a very fast C6 Z06 trapped 118 that same night in Vegas, in good air they trap 126-129, and to put that 125trap into perspective, here's what other cars trapped.

Stock E9X M3's, 13-15s @ 102-105MPH
NA E46 M3's, 14-15's @ 98MPH
E60 M5 13's @ 108-110MPH
C6 Z06 12's @ 117-118MPH
Stock E55 13-14's @ 103MPH
Modded E55 - 12's @ 113MPH
Highly Modded GTR on stock turbo's C16 race fuel 125MPH
2012 GTR 530HP LC, 11.4 @ 117-118MPH
HPF E46 M3 Turbo STage 2 Pump + Meth, 13's @ 122-123MPH
HPF E46 M3 Turbo Stage 2.5 Pump + Meth ,12's @ 127-128MPH
HPF E46 M3 Turbo Stage 2.5 Race + Meth, 12's @ 132mph
HPF Stage 2.75 Pump + Meth, 12's @ 129MPH
HPF Stage 2.75 Race fuel + Meth (800whp) 11.64 @ 136MPH
HPF Stage 4 Race Fuel + Meth (750whp) 11.00 @ 131MPH
996TT, K16's, ECU Flash, 13's @ 111mph


Make sense now?

Not to be harsh, but please, let's STOP equating different tracks MPH results. Also it's pretty commonly accepted that DCT is just faster than a 6MT in a straight line.
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      05-25-2011, 01:30 PM   #222
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NO,i appologize Sir and welcome to M3pot !!!!
thank you. this seems like the place to be
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      05-25-2011, 01:35 PM   #223
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thank you. this seems like the place to be
Oh yea it is and u walked in the best thread !!! haha
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      05-25-2011, 01:36 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
You need to read my post above. I don't claim to have all the answers, but it's basic stuff really, conditions play a huge roll, just as they do on a dyno.

At Mfest Vegas Speedway the DA was very high 4000', traction was non existent in 1st and 2nd, yet the car still hit 125MPH, at Famoso the DA was much lower 800' and I hit 129, makes perfect sense, there were no major changes, and certainly no change in psi. Famoso is a much faster track than Vegas, hence the trap difference, I would rank Vegas as one of the worst when the DA is positive and that track goes uphill. AS I did before, to put it into perspective a very fast C6 Z06 trapped 118 that same night in Vegas, in good air they trap 126-129, and to put that 125trap into perspective, here's what other cars trapped.

Stock E9X M3's, 13-15s @ 102-105MPH
NA E46 M3's, 14-15's @ 98MPH
E60 M5 13's @ 108-110MPH
C6 Z06 12's @ 117-118MPH
Stock E55 13-14's @ 103MPH
Modded E55 - 12's @ 113MPH
Highly Modded GTR on stock turbo's C16 race fuel 125MPH
2012 GTR 530HP LC, 11.4 @ 117-118MPH
HPF E46 M3 Turbo STage 2 Pump + Meth, 13's @ 122-123MPH
HPF E46 M3 Turbo Stage 2.5 Pump + Meth ,12's @ 127-128MPH
HPF E46 M3 Turbo Stage 2.5 Race + Meth, 12's @ 132mph
HPF Stage 2.75 Pump + Meth, 12's @ 129MPH
HPF Stage 2.75 Race fuel + Meth (800whp) 11.64 @ 136MPH
HPF Stage 4 Race Fuel + Meth (750whp) 11.00 @ 131MPH
996TT, K16's, ECU Flash, 13's @ 111mph


Make sense now?

Not to be harsh, but please, let's STOP equating different tracks MPH results. Also it's pretty commonly accepted that DCT is just faster than a 6MT in a straight line.
ok, so i guess il stay.

the part of this post i would like to see answered is this. you are correct, you are across the country, so let take your times out of it. even the 123 mph runs that are on par for a 500hp 3500lb car


so we have lets say 2 cars, one dct, 1 manual. equal weight, equal power, equal DA, as the tracks are in the same state, same elevation.

NA both cars trap a measly (by comparison) 112 and 113 mph. where is the DCT efficiency that some are claiming?

now , both cars get supercharged, both cars lay down the same hp in SAE dyno jet dynos

but now all of a sudden the DCT car has a HUGE (6+ MPH advantage)

well, if thats what your saying, then im glad i chose DCT for more than just the ease of commutng through traffic

but i think there is more to it than just DCT

oh, and DA does have an effect, but not as large as its being made out to be. maybe the 0-4k that you went through, but we are not usuing yours since again, you are across the country, so that is why we will take the 2, 3 actually cars that are local to eachother..
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      05-25-2011, 02:02 PM   #225
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AA id love to see some detailed information on the HKS charger, we must remember 1 psi on the vortech may be very different to 1 psi on the hks unit, its all about flow.........

id love to get a comparison on the 2 units, the vortech unit is just HUGGEE, capable of 25psi and 750+ hp.........

the hks unit seems to be a tq monster...... AA can you post some detailed specs and maybe even some pics of the unit please....

if someone could chime in about what FLOW actually means for the mere mortals amongst us, and the differences that can happen between 2 different blowers pushing 7-8psi.
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      05-25-2011, 02:08 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby_digital View Post
ok, so i guess il stay.

the part of this post i would like to see answered is this. you are correct, you are across the country, so let take your times out of it. even the 123 mph runs that are on par for a 500hp 3500lb car
Why take my times out of it? I'm a DCT running around 7psi, it's more of a accurate comparison to other DCT cars, especially since there are no DCT times in your area, lol. But still it's not an exact science comparing traps from different tracks, so I get your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby_digital View Post
so we have lets say 2 cars, one dct, 1 manual. equal weight, equal power, equal DA, as the tracks are in the same state, same elevation. NA both cars trap a measly (by comparison) 112 and 113 mph. where is the DCT efficiency that some are claiming?
I"m not sure if both of those cars ran the same day? Here's what I found as I posted earlier.

"At a private event at Famoso last year, all the N/A 6MT M3's were trapping in the 108-112 range, I trapped 114-116, even with less power." It's not a claim it's a fact, the DCT car for the most part will be faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby_digital View Post
now , both cars get supercharged, both cars lay down the same hp in SAE dyno jet dynos
but now all of a sudden the DCT car has a HUGE (6+ MPH advantage)
Yes, even NA I found that too be true, even if I made LESS whp, and FWIW some cars regardless of the kit just don't perform as well, I think that is also widely accepted across all platforms. FWIW my Supercharged Gintani DCT, was much faster vs. 6MT cars with the exact same Gintani setup, even if they made more WHP.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby_digital View Post
well, if thats what your saying, then im glad i chose DCT for more than just the ease of commutng through traffic
You made the right choice if you want to go faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby_digital View Post
but i think there is more to it than just DCT

oh, and DA does have an effect, but not as large as its being made out to be. maybe the 0-4k that you went through, but we are not usuing yours since again, you are across the country, so that is why we will take the 2, 3 actually cars that are local to eachother..
There could be more than just the DCT, driver, traction, etc. plenty of variables espeically with 6MT. Go ahead and take whatever cars you want to compare nothing wrong with that, but you and others are comparing 6MT to DCT, I think it's fruitless to do so.
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ESS VT3-750 - 60-130MPH 6.44s - 10.81 @ 135.13 MPH 690Whp/463Wtq@13.5 psi

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      05-25-2011, 02:16 PM   #227
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Originally Posted by Beedub View Post
AA id love to see some detailed information on the HKS charger, we must remember 1 psi on the vortech may be very different to 1 psi on the hks unit, its all about flow.........

id love to get a comparison on the 2 units, the vortech unit is just HUGGEE, capable of 25psi and 750+ hp.........

the hks unit seems to be a tq monster...... AA can you post some detailed specs and maybe even some pics of the unit please....

if someone could chime in about what FLOW actually means for the mere mortals amongst us, and the differences that can happen between 2 different blowers pushing 7-8psi.

well, going by tha data im trying to dig up right now, ath the 7psi that people have shown, the hp per psi is equal. now which one will run out of their efficieny range at higher boost, i dont know yet. but currently hp/psi is equal @ 7psi
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      05-25-2011, 02:22 PM   #228
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Why take my times out of it? I'm a DCT running around 7psi, it's more of a accurate comparison to other DCT cars. Especially since there are no DCT times in your area, lol. But still it's not an exact science comparing traps from different tracks, so I get your point.

yes, taking your car out of it since we arent using your expected 123 and 125 mph traps- i dont know you or anything about you, but something has to change to go from 123 to 127 and its not DA

I"m not sure if both of those cars ran the same day? Here's what I found as I posted earlier.

"At a private event at Famoso last year, all the N/A 6MT M3's were trapping in the 108-112 range, I trapped 114-116, even with less power." It's not a claim it's a fact, the DCT car for the most part will be faster.

again, across the country and im just getting started at looking into this, so for now, since im here and these 3 cars are here, we can stick with them

Yes, even NA I found that too be true, even if I made LESS whp, and FWIW some cars regardless of the kit just don't perform as well, I think that is also widely accepted across all platforms. FWIW my Supercharged Gintani DCT, was much faster vs. 6MT cars with the exact same Gintani setup, even if they made more WHP.

then how did same powered cars, only difference is transmission and maybe a few hundred DA correction equate to equal mph?

You made the right choice if you want to go faster.



There could be more than just the DCT, driver, traction, etc. plenty of variables espeically with 6MT. Go ahead and take whatever cars you want to compare noting wrong with that, but you and others are comparing 6MT to DCT, I think it's fruitless to do so.

not if they are all local, all similar powered on SAE corected #'s only difference being transmission. even 60's are pretty close, everything on the jersey cars is adding up. i do see that the one car was bouncing off the limiter, so there is room left on the table there. and i would say that that car could be taken out of the equation, except for 2 things. 1. is that he is the car that also has a before mph slip, and 2. another cr, same setup, also had similarly disspaointing (respectivly) results. locally
response in bold
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      05-25-2011, 02:45 PM   #229
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Quote:
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response in bold
Let's just say we don't see eye to eye on how DA can drastically affect a cars performance, and how well the DCT performs vs. the 6MT, fair enough you did come around on a few points at least.
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      05-25-2011, 03:16 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSJ5 View Post
Let's just say we don't see eye to eye on how DA can drastically affect a cars performance, and how well the DCT performs vs. the 6MT, fair enough you did come around on a few points at least.
well, lets look at DA for FI motors then, well heck, lets just take a look at correction for all 3 types listed by dragtimes.
using this data here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by akh23456 View Post
A little food for thought.

S65 Dynos compared to 1/4 mile MPH's

What gives? The ESS cars are putting out equal, and sometimes MORE power, yet the AA kit is throwing around the numbers where it matters most. Is DCT really the cause for 5+ more MPH? I think we all know thats not the case..


ESS VT600-Manual

Dyno:

Slip:


ESS VT-600 Manual
Dyno
Slip



AA Stg2 w/meth DCT
Dyno
Slip


here is the first run posted. track and time available this is the correction for a NEGATIVE DA



now the other Manual M3- time is not known so i picked the absloute worst time of the day, about 453pm



the DCT AA M3- time also unknown, so used worst DA time, about 3:23 pm


and there you have a swing of about 2500'
and about 1mph variance from actual time, be it FI or NA
if i had your slips, the 123 and 127 mph runs, i will gladly take a look at the variations as well
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      05-25-2011, 03:24 PM   #231
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thats a cool program where is that from? or how do i learn to use it?
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      05-25-2011, 03:31 PM   #232
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its a tool on dragtimes.com

gorgeous car BTW, i saw it in the corner at that meet and was coming over when you were revving it, but you had it off by the time i got there, and the crowd was too big for me to ask you to do it again.
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      05-25-2011, 03:38 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by bobby_digital View Post
its a tool on dragtimes.com

gorgeous car BTW, i saw it in the corner at that meet and was coming over when you were revving it, but you had it off by the time i got there, and the crowd was too big for me to ask you to do it again.
thats sick i never knew that. thanks a lot appreciate it. I would have gave her a few more revs if you asked.
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      05-25-2011, 04:24 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby_digital View Post
well, lets look at DA for FI motors then, well heck, lets just take a look at correction for all 3 types listed by dragtimes.
using this data here:

here is the first run posted. track and time available this is the correction for a NEGATIVE DA

now the other Manual M3- time is not known so i picked the absloute worst time of the day, about 453pm


the DCT AA M3- time also unknown, so used worst DA time, about 3:23 pm


and there you have a swing of about 2500'
and about 1mph variance from actual time, be it FI or NA
if i had your slips, the 123 and 127 mph runs, i will gladly take a look at the variations as well
Still comparing DCT to 6MT cars?

Stop trying to speculate that there was some significant change between my car's 125 trap and 129 trap, there wasn't, let it go. It is quite evident that you didn't just pop up in this thread out of curiosity. I believe you have a history of doubting ESS cars?

http://s114.photobucket.com/home/steven09999

Hi Steven, aka Lost Marine. Excellent run in your 335I BTW!

Regardless, this is why you need to take actual 1/4 mile runs as more solid empirical evidence or data of what the cars trap in different DA's / different tracks etc. Using a corrected slip is a joke, wouldn't you think?

Although there is nothing wrong with using the dragtimes tool to see what the possible outcome might be, I've done plenty to know that the dragtimes calculator is not the end all be all to facts (although a nice tool) that is simply a guesstimate. Seeing a 4MPH difference in traps between Vegas and Famoso is quite normal, especially when you put things into proper perspective and what a slew of other cars did as well.
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      05-25-2011, 04:31 PM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobby_digital View Post
well, going by tha data im trying to dig up right now, ath the 7psi that people have shown, the hp per psi is equal. now which one will run out of their efficieny range at higher boost, i dont know yet. but currently hp/psi is equal @ 7psi


thats got to be wrong surely otherwise both kits would show the same power.... i can however tell you the v3si is at its best uptop for sure :-)
the 7-9psi we run on this is No-where the near the potential of what the v3si can do.......
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      05-25-2011, 04:51 PM   #236
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thats sick i never knew that. thanks a lot appreciate it. I would have gave her a few more revs if you asked.
Sure u didnt roll together cause from what hes posting he seems to kmow hell of alot for someone who just got an M3,welcome on board LM
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      05-25-2011, 05:04 PM   #237
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Sure u didnt roll together cause from what hes posting he seems to kmow hell of alot for someone who just got an M3,welcome on board LM
if its Lm than . Welcome to the board bro.
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      05-25-2011, 06:19 PM   #238
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AA id love to see some detailed information on the HKS charger, we must remember 1 psi on the vortech may be very different to 1 psi on the hks unit, its all about flow.........

HKS GTS8550:
100,000 rpm
24 psi
925 CFM (~620hp)
12 lbs
60,000 mile oil change intervals
1 year warranty
$3250 MSRP


Vortech V3 Si:
52,000 rpm
22 psi
1150 CFM (~775hp)
18 lbs
2,500 mile oil change (break-in), 7,500 mile intervals thereafter
1 year warranty
$2400 MSRP

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      05-25-2011, 07:03 PM   #239
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Originally Posted by spdu4ea View Post
HKS GTS8550:
100,000 rpm
24 psi
925 CFM (~620hp)
12 lbs
60,000 mile oil change intervals
1 year warranty
$3250 MSRP


Vortech V3 Si:
52,000 rpm
22 psi
1150 CFM (~775hp)
18 lbs
2,500 mile oil change (break-in), 7,500 mile intervals thereafter
1 year warranty
$2400 MSRP
I thought vortech extended there warranty or may b im wrong
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      05-25-2011, 07:29 PM   #240
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Quote:
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I thought vortech extended there warranty or may b im wrong
Could have, I'm just going from Vortech's website... (http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...008543v3.0.pdf). HKS's website says 1 year in one place, and 2 years in another -- so I just went with 1 year to be safe.

Either way, both ESS and AA offer longer warranties as part of their kits (2 years ESS, 3 years AA)
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      05-25-2011, 07:52 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdu4ea View Post
Could have, I'm just going from Vortech's website... (http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...008543v3.0.pdf). HKS's website says 1 year in one place, and 2 years in another -- so I just went with 1 year to be safe.

Either way, both ESS and AA offer longer warranties as part of their kits (2 years ESS, 3 years AA)
Cool,thanx for the info Sir !
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      05-25-2011, 08:48 PM   #242
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So Bobby is lostmarine ? Welcome aboard Steve .

Last edited by m33; 05-25-2011 at 09:13 PM.
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