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      05-25-2011, 09:37 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
I don't think there has been any judgement on Obama's case. Weren't cases simply dismissed for lack of standing? Rather a cop-out in my opinion.

Orly Taitz was FINED $20,000 dollars for trying to do in court exactly what you are doing here. From Judge Clay's order:

"When a lawyer files complaints and motions without a reasonable basis for believing that they are supported by existing law or a modification or extension of existing law, that lawyer abuses her privilege to practice law. When a lawyer uses the courts as a platform for a political agenda disconnected from any legitimate legal cause of action, that lawyer abuses her privilege to practice law."

You have no legal basis in law, and you have not legal cause of action. Care to try Judge Clay for double or nothing? I dare you to take your BS to Judge Clay. How would a $40,000 dollar fine suit you?
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      05-25-2011, 09:40 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
The relationship between anti-Muslim prejudice and racism can be best illustrated by a commonly used anti-Muslim pejorative:

Sand N!gger.

The blending of the lines between anti-black/dark skinned racism and anti-Muslim prejudice is abundantly clear in this pejorative.

The majority of the 1.5 billion Muslims of the world are non-white, and the history of anti-Muslim imagery being dominated with oversized non-white ethnic features, and dark skinned images further blurs the lines between religious and racial prejudice.

Do you understand the connection between racism and religious prejudice by people who harbor BOTH racial AND religious prejudice when they use the pejorative "Sand N!gger"?
I wasn't aware of the connection. I haven't used the term myself, and have very rarely heard it used. My impression of the term would be referring to people of olive to dark skin from the region of the middle-east, but I really wouldn't know. It would be better to ask the people who are more familiar with the term.
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      05-25-2011, 09:43 PM   #113
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Oh really? What judge has examined the paper document? What forensic analysis has been done?
Judges don't run the country. The Executive branches of the gov't go on day after day running the country without any help from any judges.

The Executive branch of the State of Hawaii is the branch that day in, day out certifies that documents are correct and valid. They do this every day, all day long without the help of a single judge.

This is called the Separation of Powers. You might try reading about it sometime. It's in the constitution.

Why do you demand that a member of the Judicial branch do the work that the constitution reserves for the Executive branch? I thought you knew the constitution?


Analysis of the original document, and the certification of said document was done by members of the Executive branch of the State of Hawaii. Both by Republicans and Democrats. Proof of this has been provided to you many times. Upon what basis of proof do you reject this analysis?

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      05-25-2011, 09:49 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
I wasn't aware of the connection. I haven't used the term myself, and have very rarely heard it used. My impression of the term would be referring to people of olive to dark skin from the region of the middle-east, but I really wouldn't know. It would be better to ask the people who are more familiar with the term.
Now that you are aware, you can clearly see why I made the connection.


If you aren't aware of stuff like this, then maybe you should be extra careful about NOT allowing yourself to be dragged into "dog whistle" issues that play directly towards the prejudices of those people who hold those beliefs.
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      05-25-2011, 09:50 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by mikeinsf View Post
If Obama were white, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
We still would if everything else was exactly the same as it is today.


My side keeps saying that the president is this and that, hes a fraud and he is driving this country in to the ground, etc etc.

Your side would cont to say; prove it, you all are haters, etc etc just like today.


It has nothing to do with the color of his skin, but who he is and his past.
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      05-25-2011, 09:52 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
No, you have proof of scanning artifacts, not proof that the ORIGINAL CONTENT is any different than the CONTENT on the PDF.

You don't even understand the difference.

What CONTENT do you have proof is different than the original? The date? The location?


Here is how this would play out in court.

JUDGE: Mr. Obama, what proof do you have of your location of birth?

OBAMA: Here you go Judge, here are all the lawful documents:
1) Computer generated Certificate of Live Birth with raised seal.
2) Testimony of the Republican Gov. that it is true and valid.
3) Photocopy of the paper Certificate of Live Birth with state stamp
4) Letter from State of Hawaii validating it is a true copy.

JUDGE: These are all legally admissible and binding documents. You've met your burden 4 times over what any court would require. What do you have Mr. Birthtard?

DUMB-F**K BIRTHTARD: If you look here at this unofficial PDF scan, you can see that there are artifacts from the scanning process....

JUDGE: Unofficial PDF scan? WTF are you talking about? That isn't admissible. Don't you understand the difference between an original document and a scan that was produced to be quickly put on the internet in the middle of a news cycle? Get the F*** out before I put you in jail.

DUMB-F**K BIRTHTARD: But I got this from some random person on the internet, isn't that the same as evidence that came directly from the State of Hawaii??

JUDGE: That does it. Bailiff, wack his pee-pee.

If you look at his Document that is on whitehouse.gov website, you would see it has no seal. And that there are two pages being merged very poorly. I pointed out the flaws very clearly. But you being difficult to accept the facts i clearly provided.
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      05-25-2011, 09:54 PM   #117
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ummm.. no. That's NOT the best way.

The best way is to go directly to the authoritative source of the document, and confirm that the CONTENTS of the digital PDF file match the CONTENTS of the original, regardless of the FORMAT of the PDF file.

That has already been done. The State of Hawaii has already validated the CONTENTS as accurate, regardless of format. They have done so multiple times, from both Republican and Democratic leadership. Both in writing and verbally. Both from the political side of the gov't, and from the professional side.

You have been provided with proof of all of this validation, yet choose to ignore it and choose a forensic examination that at the end WILL NEVER PROVE NOR DISPROVE THAT THE CONTENT IS NOT ACCURATE!!!!

Your methodology is faulty, and cannot ever lead to a logical conclusion on the accuracy of the CONTENTS of Obama's birth certificate.

Where did you get this information?
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      05-25-2011, 10:02 PM   #118
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Where did you get this information?
Oh my god. You seriously don't know about the letter of authentication? Or the multiple statements from multiple people in the Hawaii gov't?

You've just proven yourself clueless on the topic.

If I provide you these pieces of information, will you accept them? Will you admit that there is no point in doing forensic analysis of the documents if they have been authenticated by the State of Hawaii? This is a yes or no question.
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      05-25-2011, 10:04 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Orly Taitz was FINED $20,000 dollars for trying to do in court exactly what you are doing here. From Judge Clay's order:

"When a lawyer files complaints and motions without a reasonable basis for believing that they are supported by existing law or a modification or extension of existing law, that lawyer abuses her privilege to practice law. When a lawyer uses the courts as a platform for a political agenda disconnected from any legitimate legal cause of action, that lawyer abuses her privilege to practice law."

You have no legal basis in law, and you have not legal cause of action. Care to try Judge Clay for double or nothing? I dare you to take your BS to Judge Clay. How would a $40,000 dollar fine suit you?
I am not taking anything to court. I am advocating for Obama to surrender the document willingly to forensic analysis. This is what would be the right thing to do.

For the legal arguments, I never followed Obama's case the least bit closely. I followed McCain's much more closely as the courts were not willing to recognize the standing of the many plaintif's. It was an embarrassment that the Constitution could be so abused and thereby the people, and yet a judge wouldn't hear the case before irreparable harm was done.

I am an advocate for these cases to be tried in the court of public opinion. If they ever rise to the level of a judicial proceeding, then I will applaud. The best way to proceed is for congress to act to protect us from future abuse.
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      05-25-2011, 10:05 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by KGB7 View Post
If you look at his Document that is on whitehouse.gov website, you would see it has no seal. And that there are two pages being merged very poorly. I pointed out the flaws very clearly. But you being difficult to accept the facts i clearly provided.
I already provided you with a video that shows that the RAISED SEAL is visible when the computer generated copy of the Certificate of Live Birth is tilted at an angle. You have ignored that video.

If I provide it to you AGAIN, will you accept the computer generated Certificate of Live Birth to be a valid document that absolutely proves once and for all that Obama was born exactly where the document says he was born?

This is a yes or no question.
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      05-25-2011, 10:11 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by scottwww View Post
I am not taking anything to court. I am advocating for Obama to surrender the document willingly to forensic analysis. This is what would be the right thing to do.

.
Obama has already "surrendered" the document for forensic analysis, and it has been validated to prove he was born in Hawaii. The original document isn't even Obama's to surrender. It is the property of the State of Hawaii, and they have full custody of the document, so there is nothing Obama can do to surrender a document that is owned and in custody of the State of Hawaii.

It has already been subject to forensic analysis when the State of Hawaii. This analysis has been validated and certified as true with the full force of Hawaii law. No third-party non-gov't official can do forensic analysis of the original document and have their analysis hold full force of law.

Will you accept the forensic analysis that holds the full force of law in Hawaii? That is a yes or no question. You guys are still at 100% failure at answering yes or no questions.
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      05-25-2011, 10:25 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Judges don't run the country. The Executive branches of the gov't go on day after day running the country without any help from any judges.

The Executive branch of the State of Hawaii is the branch that day in, day out certifies that documents are correct and valid. They do this every day, all day long without the help of a single judge.

This is called the Separation of Powers. You might try reading about it sometime. It's in the constitution.

Why do you demand that a member of the Judicial branch do the work that the constitution reserves for the Executive branch? I thought you knew the constitution?


Analysis of the original document, and the certification of said document was done by members of the Executive branch of the State of Hawaii. Both by Republicans and Democrats. Proof of this has been provided to you many times. Upon what basis of proof do you reject this analysis?
Wasn't it YOU that had brought the judge into the argument? link

I am advocating for voluntary public hearing of the argument. If a judge would hear the case, then it could deal with details in a way that public discussion cannot as effectively address. That would be a very welcome thing. But as you have indicated, for right or wrong, judicial proceedings go nowhere.

I am an advocate for the re-application of the U.S. Constitution to practically all things that it has been effectively removed. And I don't claim expertise in the Constitution. I have read it several times and studied it some. It defines a government that is far different that what we have today.

The electoral process needs reform in requiring more proof of meeting Constitutional guidelines in order to appear on the general election ballot. If the federal government cannot do this for whatever reason, then each state should have the right to determine what proof is required to appear on the ballot within their own state. I would like to see state legislation to require a specific level of proof. I would like to see a full public examination of all available evidence as to what constitutes "natural born Citizen" so that we can recognize it when we see it, and recognize when one falls short of the mark. This has not happened before. And the full definition of "natural born Citizen" apparently cannot be written as statute. You see, I am pushing for public awareness. Even though there isn't much legal precedent for the case, there is plenty of information to where a truer understanding of original intent can be reached.
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      05-25-2011, 10:25 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Oh my god. You seriously don't know about the letter of authentication? Or the multiple statements from multiple people in the Hawaii gov't?

You've just proven yourself clueless on the topic.

If I provide you these pieces of information, will you accept them? Will you admit that there is no point in doing forensic analysis of the documents if they have been authenticated by the State of Hawaii? This is a yes or no question.
Buddy, tone your attitude down. Thanks.

No i dont know about the letter about authentication from Hawaii. But what i want to see is a letter from the Congress here in Wash DC, where i live, signed by both parties.

Does that letter exist?


Can you explain why two pieces of paper being merged together to created a birth certificate? can you? Because you keep avoiding that subject over and over again!




Quote:
Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
I already provided you with a video that shows that the RAISED SEAL is visible when the computer generated copy of the Certificate of Live Birth is tilted at an angle. You have ignored that video.

If I provide it to you AGAIN, will you accept the computer generated Certificate of Live Birth to be a valid document that absolutely proves once and for all that Obama was born exactly where the document says he was born?

This is a yes or no question.
The video that you showed me, is from news station, i have yet to see same document posted on whitehouse.gov website.

If you show me a link to .gov website where that documented is located then i will reconsider my position.


I think in another thread, someone said you are British? Is that correct? If it is true, then why do you care so much about our ... problems? I dont see anyone here sticking their nose in to your backyard and tell you how to cut your grass.
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      05-25-2011, 10:27 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Now that you are aware, you can clearly see why I made the connection.


If you aren't aware of stuff like this, then maybe you should be extra careful about NOT allowing yourself to be dragged into "dog whistle" issues that play directly towards the prejudices of those people who hold those beliefs.
I will make whatever argument I like, and clarify where possible when requested.
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      05-25-2011, 10:28 PM   #125
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Obama has already "surrendered" the document for forensic analysis, and it has been validated to prove he was born in Hawaii. The original document isn't even Obama's to surrender. It is the property of the State of Hawaii, and they have full custody of the document, so there is nothing Obama can do to surrender a document that is owned and in custody of the State of Hawaii.

It has already been subject to forensic analysis when the State of Hawaii. This analysis has been validated and certified as true with the full force of Hawaii law. No third-party non-gov't official can do forensic analysis of the original document and have their analysis hold full force of law.

Will you accept the forensic analysis that holds the full force of law in Hawaii? That is a yes or no question. You guys are still at 100% failure at answering yes or no questions.

Do you know what money and Govt influence can buy you? Pretty much anything. And with enough money, you or I can buy Hawaii.

As i said before, and i will say it again. I want to see same examination done here in Wash DC by a 3rd independent party.


Am i asking for too much? No i am not.
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      05-25-2011, 10:38 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by 11Series View Post
Obama has already "surrendered" the document for forensic analysis, and it has been validated to prove he was born in Hawaii. The original document isn't even Obama's to surrender. It is the property of the State of Hawaii, and they have full custody of the document, so there is nothing Obama can do to surrender a document that is owned and in custody of the State of Hawaii.

It has already been subject to forensic analysis when the State of Hawaii. This analysis has been validated and certified as true with the full force of Hawaii law. No third-party non-gov't official can do forensic analysis of the original document and have their analysis hold full force of law.

Will you accept the forensic analysis that holds the full force of law in Hawaii? That is a yes or no question. You guys are still at 100% failure at answering yes or no questions.
It must be that I don't know the definition of forensic analysis if what Hawaii officials did was it. I have not accepted it. You asked another yes/no question earlier in this thread as if everyone ignore it. At least two of us did not hesitate to answer it for you. I don't see where you can come off as if we on the the opposing side are being difficult.

And for analysis, for it to hold full force of law would be great, for it to be satisfying for the public would be far better. I am pushing fora satisfactory and full hearing of the case from all perspectives. It is of less value regarding force of law when the law does not provide guidance and people are denied standing in court.

EDIT: When I say hearing here, I am not referring to a judicial hearing. I am referring to public discussion, perhaps to include popular media sources as well as internet blogs and forums. This would be the hearing of all interested parties. That would be a far, far better thing than a discussion led by the Harvard Law educated.

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      05-25-2011, 11:06 PM   #127
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It must be that I don't know the definition of forensic analysis if what Hawaii officials did was it. I have not accepted it. .
+1

To me, Hawaii is nothing more then a land for tourists. I highly doubt they have the knowledge or equipment to properly do anything other then make fruity drinks and cook a pig over open fire.

Nothing against Hawaii, but they aren't equipped to deal with this kind of situation on such a large scale in any capacity. I could be wrong, but i doubt it.
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      05-25-2011, 11:14 PM   #128
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Thanks for confirming that you guys will never accept anything from the ONLY sources that matter. The ones that hold full force of law.
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      05-25-2011, 11:30 PM   #129
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Thanks for confirming that you guys will never accept anything from the ONLY sources that matter. The ones that hold full force of law.

Why cant you answer any of my question? Or do anything i have requested from you?
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      05-26-2011, 08:01 AM   #130
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You birthers still trying to beat this dead horse? Wow, you guys really are fuckin' retarded.

With all of the evidence out there, you guys still are trying to hold your own court over this non-issue. As said prior, there have multiple judges that have reviewed this information, dem leaders, gop leaders, the hospital, a newspaper article from 50 years ago. Yet, you guys are still saying "look at ze pixxuls, they r phorged".

The depth of your want to discredit our current president is unreal. You guys really want Biden as President that bad?
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      05-26-2011, 08:24 AM   #131
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Why cant you answer any of my question? Or do anything i have requested from you?
I've asked you the same thing 3 times now.

Based on the way this debate is not progressing, due to a lack of rational responsiveness from your side, I would strongly suggest that our side says "Mission Accomplished" and resigns from this thread.

This entire topic is preposterous. Both of Obama's parents were in Hawaii when he was born, and there's no indication that Barack was ever in Kenya, so why is this even an issue? Think of any other presidential candidate who had his birth certificate publicly examined, and then rationalize why this president, and only this president, should have a forensic analysis done on his birth certificate. Just think to yourself, because I personally don't need to hear your answer, or continue this stupid exchange with you people.
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      05-26-2011, 11:12 AM   #132
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Scotch, 11, you guys have far more patience for these lunatics than I do. Their bad relationship with facts and the truth is pathological, and nothing is going to change that. They'll never accept anything about Obama because they hate his guts. They'll misrepresent themselves say they're just "searching for the truth". Yeah, what a crock of bullshit, and they've raised shoveling bullshit to an art form.

To quote Scottwww from a 2009 post... "The guy is a commie and a fraud. Be relentless. Remember how it was for GWB? And Ronald Reagan? It was brutal on anything and everything even with the complicity of the popular media."

That's who you're dealing with, and nothing you can or will ever say will satisfy them. They're disingenuous liars with scores to settle. The government could humor them with their birther inquisition, and then they'd just find a way to assert that the judge is biased, or the evidence had been tampered with. You'd show them proof to the contrary, and they'd refute your proof... and so on, and so on, and so on. At some point you just need to deal with them like crying children and let them cry it out in silence.
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