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      05-13-2011, 10:32 AM   #1
M3Bahn
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SWAT team fired 71 shots in raid at former marine

The Pima County Regional SWAT team fired 71 shots in seven seconds at a Tucson man they say pointed a gun at officers serving a search warrant at his home.
Jose Guerena, 26, a former Marine who served in Iraq twice, was holding an AR-15 rifle when he was killed, but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week's raid.
Six days after Guerena was shot, few details about the investigation that brought the SWAT team to the southwest-side home Guerena shared with his wife and their two young sons are known. Guerena's role in the narcotics investigation is unclear and deputies would not comment on what was seized from his home.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crim...f206f8301.html


Medical care blocked for man killed by SWAT

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14629829/...killed-by-swat
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      05-13-2011, 11:50 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by M3Bahn View Post
The Pima County Regional SWAT team fired 71 shots in seven seconds at a Tucson man they say pointed a gun at officers serving a search warrant at his home.
Jose Guerena, 26, a former Marine who served in Iraq twice, was holding an AR-15 rifle when he was killed, but he never fired a shot, the Sheriff's Department said Monday after initially saying he had fired on officers during last week's raid.
Six days after Guerena was shot, few details about the investigation that brought the SWAT team to the southwest-side home Guerena shared with his wife and their two young sons are known. Guerena's role in the narcotics investigation is unclear and deputies would not comment on what was seized from his home.

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crim...f206f8301.html


Medical care blocked for man killed by SWAT

http://www.kgun9.com/story/14629829/...killed-by-swat
What I see here is a huge absence of facts, and someone jumping to conclusions. Worst case, they gunned down an innocent man (BAD). Best case: cops show up, guy gets out his AR to wave around and gets what he deserves. You wave a gun at cops, you're asking for what comes next whether you get a shot off or not.

Could be the guy was innocent and the cops did a horrible thing. Could be he was an idiot who decided the best course of action when the police came knocking was to grab his assault rifle. Nothing in these articles is conclusive. Oh... and drug dealers, some of them violent, sometimes have wives and kids too.

If this guy was innocent then excellent time to point out a case where gun ownership for home protection is largely responsible for said gun owner being killed. What average guy doesn't want an AR kicking around the house?? GMAB. Also a good case for why police should ALWAYS have to announce their presence CLEARLY and LOUDLY before conducting a raid.
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      05-14-2011, 12:28 PM   #3
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Probably a case of the guy hearing his front door getting kicked in, grabbing his rifle, and a bunch of adrenaline junkie cops spraying him with bullets before anyone could make sense of the situation.
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      05-14-2011, 01:14 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by mikeinsf View Post
What I see here is a huge absence of facts, and someone jumping to conclusions. Worst case, they gunned down an innocent man (BAD). Best case: cops show up, guy gets out his AR to wave around and gets what he deserves. You wave a gun at cops, you're asking for what comes next whether you get a shot off or not.

Could be the guy was innocent and the cops did a horrible thing. Could be he was an idiot who decided the best course of action when the police came knocking was to grab his assault rifle. Nothing in these articles is conclusive. Oh... and drug dealers, some of them violent, sometimes have wives and kids too.

If this guy was innocent then excellent time to point out a case where gun ownership for home protection is largely responsible for said gun owner being killed. What average guy doesn't want an AR kicking around the house?? GMAB. Also a good case for why police should ALWAYS have to announce their presence CLEARLY and LOUDLY before conducting a raid.
Who exactly is jumping to conclusions?
Both articles are what the main stream news reported.
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      05-15-2011, 05:05 PM   #5
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More casualties in a stupid pointless drug-war that can never be "won".
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      05-15-2011, 05:50 PM   #6
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Of course he didn't fire a shot, you think SWAT were waiting for him to take one?

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More casualties in a stupid pointless drug-war that can never be "won".
Right. We shouldn't do anything
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      05-15-2011, 05:53 PM   #7
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More casualties in a stupid pointless drug-war that can never be "won".
Agreed. There is no easy solution, but decriminalization at the federal level would be a start.
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      05-15-2011, 05:57 PM   #8
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Right. We shouldn't do anything

Yea, we could never decriminalize it.


//sarc


It won't happen as long as folks keep voting for "law and order" candidates. But elections could change that.
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      05-15-2011, 06:00 PM   #9
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If the guy was a drug trafficker, he wasn't very good at it. What profit-making drug trafficker works double-shifts on a job?
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      05-15-2011, 06:02 PM   #10
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Yea, we could never decriminalize it.


//sarc


It won't happen as long as folks keep voting for "law and order" candidates. But elections could change that.
Decriminalize drugs in general? Wow. Marijuana I can understand (and support) but come on...
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      05-15-2011, 06:19 PM   #11
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Decriminalize drugs in general? Wow. Marijuana I can understand (and support) but come on...
I would suggest decriminalize drugs as far as the feds are concerned. Leave it up to the states to determine what to do with it. In time, what works for each state would be determined by the individual states.

This is a lot less important than many other issues where the feds need to get their dirty, stinking hands off of it.

And yes, I realize that SWAT is a state or local operation. Getting the feds out of this may not make a difference, but it might. Perhaps SWAT would not be tasked with drug raids if there wasn't a war on drugs there.

Since we don't know more detail, we really don't know what the guy's role was with drugs. Reportedly there were no drugs found.

For them to go breaking down the door with guns blazing, did they think there would be an army of killers on the other side? Did they do it just because they knew the resident of the home owned a gun, and that he knew how to use it?
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      05-16-2011, 11:59 AM   #12
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Well decriminalization has worked in Portugal:

http://www.time.com/time/health/arti...893946,00.html

Teen use rates are down, as are hard drug use. Crime is down. It appears that decriminalization can work. Problem for this country is that it would require personal responsibility, a trait seriously lacking in our society.
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      05-16-2011, 01:29 PM   #13
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Decriminalize drugs in general? Wow. Marijuana I can understand (and support) but come on...
Decriminalization would be worth it just to grow the drugs locally with local US farmers making the money, in order to stop exporting US dollars to terrorists growing them in Afghanistan.

You have a choice. Stay with the current policy, knowing that it sends US dollars to bad guys around the globe, or decriminalize it and tax the crap out of it like tobacco and alcohol and keep the money in the US. Which choice do you like better?

There will always be somewhere that drugs will be grown. This concept of being the global drug cops trying to stop drugs from being grown in Asia, the middle east, South America, etc is futile. It has failed. Repeating the same failed policies is the definition of insanity.
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      05-16-2011, 01:42 PM   #14
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Decriminalization would be worth it just to grow the drugs locally with local US farmers making the money, in order to stop exporting US dollars to terrorists growing them in Afghanistan.

You have a choice. Stay with the current policy, knowing that it sends US dollars to bad guys around the globe, or decriminalize it and tax the crap out of it like tobacco and alcohol and keep the money in the US. Which choice do you like better?

There will always be somewhere that drugs will be grown. This concept of being the global drug cops trying to stop drugs from being grown in Asia, the middle east, South America, etc is futile. It has failed. Repeating the same failed policies is the definition of insanity.
It's the same reason prohibition didn't work and only made gangsters rich.
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      05-16-2011, 01:45 PM   #15
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All the money spent on the "war on drugs" and incarceration of non-violent "criminals" would be best diverted to treatment and education programs. They would cost far less money, and we'd have fewer people locked up.
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      05-23-2011, 10:04 PM   #16
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Decriminalize drugs in general? Wow. Marijuana I can understand (and support) but come on...
You need to read more about decriminalization of drugs, and the effect it's had on nations that have adopted it.
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      05-27-2011, 12:35 PM   #17
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Jose Guerena SWAT Raid Video From Helmet Cam


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      05-27-2011, 01:51 PM   #18
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Sirens were loud enough. The officer indicated lights were on. They knocked on the door. At :05 seconds in the video, someone yells something that could have been "Pima Sheriff's Department", but is too garbled to really tell.

Based on the siren alone, I would have dropped my AR-15.

This looks like another case where brandishing a gun for self-defense got the owner killed.
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      05-27-2011, 03:32 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Sirens were loud enough. The officer indicated lights were on. They knocked on the door. At :05 seconds in the video, someone yells something that could have been "Pima Sheriff's Department", but is too garbled to really tell.

Based on the siren alone, I would have dropped my AR-15.

This looks like another case where brandishing a gun for self-defense got the owner killed.
I live next to a hospital. All I hear 24 hours a day is sirens and helicopters. That really bothered me at first, but now I just learned to completely tune it out, unless a chopper hangs over my house for a few minutes, waiting for their turn to land.

Plus the dude was sleeping and his wife said he woke him up saying that someone is breaking down the door.

Even if he deserved to be killed (i don't think he did), he had 22 bullet holes in his body and 71 shots were fired. He did not fire a single shot and his rifle was still on safety. Nothing illegal was found in his house either (according to CNN this morning)
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      05-27-2011, 04:07 PM   #20
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I live next to a hospital. All I hear 24 hours a day is sirens and helicopters.
Really? Sirens right outside your front door, accompanied by knocking and what sounds like shouts identifying them as the Pima Sheriff's department? You live in the ghetto.

If he was awake enough to RESPONIBLY brandish his AR, he was awake enough to hear that siren directly in front of his house and put 1+1 together when there was knocking at the door, shouting, and the door being broken down.

If he wasn't awake enough to figure that out, then he wasn't awake enough to be pointing an AR around at people. That's one of the risks you take when you keep an AR near your bed for self-defense. If you aren't awake enough to handle it properly, brandishing an AR while half-asleep can get you killed. Irresponsible gun handling, especially when you are half-asleep can be deadly.
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      05-27-2011, 04:58 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Really? Sirens right outside your front door, accompanied by knocking and what sounds like shouts identifying them as the Pima Sheriff's department? You live in the ghetto.

If he was awake enough to RESPONIBLY brandish his AR, he was awake enough to hear that siren directly in front of his house and put 1+1 together when there was knocking at the door, shouting, and the door being broken down.

If he wasn't awake enough to figure that out, then he wasn't awake enough to be pointing an AR around at people. That's one of the risks you take when you keep an AR near your bed for self-defense. If you aren't awake enough to handle it properly, brandishing an AR while half-asleep can get you killed. Irresponsible gun handling, especially when you are half-asleep can be deadly.
Yeah. It was the fault of the guy who was over-killed. He shouldn't have been sleeping in his home, nor been ready to defend if some crooks would break in to kill and destroy. Though there is no reported motive for the killers, Guerena must have been a bad guy since he was slaughtered like that..
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      05-27-2011, 08:38 PM   #22
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I would just put my hand in the air instead of pointing my AR but i would understand if this guy live in a bad neighborhood.
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