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      03-24-2007, 06:37 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post

-Wouldn't 190 in an unrestricted M3 be nice though - what a thrill.

-Isn't 2k rpm nice for mpg also.

-What is your preference for SMG over ZSG?
I already did that in my CSL. On a German autobahn back in '04, I reached 7400rpm in 6th in my factory unrestricted CSL. Was it nice? Well on a 2-lane autobahn it was bloody scary really, but boy did the CSL sound good!

I remember the outgoing President of M GmbH saying they would never build a DSG type box because it lacked the involvement that SMG offers. Now some of that might have been posturing since SMG was all BMW had, but I really enjoy the skill required to maximise the SMG box (achieve smooth changes, increase the blip on downchanges etc) and whilst it's not quite as involving as a manual, at least SMG involves 'some' skill. It worries me that ZSG might be too efficient.

I was clearly told by a BMW official that ZSG would begin to be offered as a replacement for ZF's 6-speed auto on the more sporty BMWs, but they would have to do a lot of work on it before it was suitable for an M-car.
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      03-24-2007, 08:44 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steved View Post
I already did that in my CSL. On a German autobahn back in '04, I reached 7400rpm in 6th in my factory unrestricted CSL. Was it nice? Well on a 2-lane autobahn it was bloody scary really, but boy did the CSL sound good!

I remember the outgoing President of M GmbH saying they would never build a DSG type box because it lacked the involvement that SMG offers. Now some of that might have been posturing since SMG was all BMW had, but I really enjoy the skill required to maximise the SMG box (achieve smooth changes, increase the blip on downchanges etc) and whilst it's not quite as involving as a manual, at least SMG involves 'some' skill. It worries me that ZSG might be too efficient.

I was clearly told by a BMW official that ZSG would begin to be offered as a replacement for ZF's 6-speed auto on the more sporty BMWs, but they would have to do a lot of work on it before it was suitable for an M-car.
Sounds fun indeed ... and a bit scary. I topped out my modded E36 out in the desert at well above 160 mph indicated, quite a thrill in 2 lanes.

I too like the raw, F1-ish nature of SMG quite a lot. The knock in the seat in S6 at redline=:rocks:. However, isn't your argument ZSG compared to SMG the exact same argument that folks who insist on MT and on rowing their own gears make to justify MT over SMG?
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      03-24-2007, 10:43 AM   #47
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7400 in 6th equates to just over 193 mph by the way, speedometer needle had left the building and all I could use was the rev counter to judge how quick we were going. I honestly don't enjoy V-maxing a car, I have been racing cars in one form or other for more than 20 years and much prefer going around in circles.

As for the MT vs SMG vs ZSG debate, I have quite a wide spread of gearboxes at my disposal on a daily basis; one of the best auto boxes in my ML63, SMG II in my CSL and manual sticks in my Z4M Coupe and Mini Cooper S Works.

I enjoy each, but ultimately I would vote the auto box in last place because it never manages to be in the right gear at the right time - despite the paddles on the steering wheel. A manual box is no big deal to me, I heel and toe with the best of them and always match engine revs smoothly whether going up or down the gears. When I bought my first SMG equipped M3 back in 2002, I found for the first time in many years that I had to concentrate on achieving a smooth change again. Eventually replacing the feel of my left clutch leg in a manual, with a finer sense of intuition using my ears. I enjoyed the challenge. So now I drive SMG pretty much the same as a pure manual transmission, but replace the sensitivity of my left leg with that of my ears.

ZSG however, if it is anything like DSG in the VAG cars seems to remove this final element of interaction, no longer does it seem to make a difference how the driver interacts with the controls and it ends up feeling like a slightly more precise auto box.

So changing gear with a stick or a paddle makes little difference to me, provided you are proficient then they both seem as easy. But losing interaction with the engagement of the clutch, being the final arbitor of when and how the drivetrain will re-engage again - now that's the point where the driving experience is damaged.

Much as I enjoy an auto box on a motorway or around town, they leave me cold, never exceeding expectations and most likely frustrating them at times. I hope that doesn't happen to any M-cars, especially the M3.
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      03-24-2007, 11:03 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Sounds fun indeed ... and a bit scary. I topped out my modded E36 out in the desert at well above 160 mph indicated, quite a thrill in 2 lanes.

I too like the raw, F1-ish nature of SMG quite a lot. The knock in the seat in S6 at redline=:rocks:. However, isn't your argument ZSG compared to SMG the exact same argument that folks who insist on MT and on rowing their own gears make to justify MT over SMG?

SMG rules.....

I love the snap when you shift gears......Fell in love with it with my older E46 M3 and now I can chirp the tires from 3rd to 4th in the M6.....

And the sight of my girlfriend's head snapping back and breaking her hair berrete going from 2nd to 3rd still makes me feel warm on the inside.
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      03-24-2007, 12:03 PM   #49
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Quote:
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SMG rules.....

And the sight of my girlfriend's head snapping back and breaking her hair berrete going from 2nd to 3rd still makes me feel warm on the inside.
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      03-24-2007, 10:53 PM   #50
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Nice

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Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
And the sight of my girlfriend's head snapping back and breaking her hair berrete going from 2nd to 3rd still makes me feel warm on the inside.
Nice, in a nice, sick pervy kind of way! Hey as long as she puts up with it - it's all good.
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      03-24-2007, 11:23 PM   #51
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The BMW 7-speed SMG III, or Getrag 7AMI550, has an unconventional shift pattern (shown below) that is designed to be operated by a computer controlled hydraulic system.

It is not possible in any way or form to modify this gearbox into a conventional H pattern manual. A manual version must have totally different/redesigned internals and quite likely new casing. That's a lot of development to do, and is likely to cost a lot. I'm under the impression that if it was worth it, BMW/Getrag would have done so already.

Personally, I always thought a 7-speed manual would have a dogleg first and a electronic reverse that's engaged by a button. It's purely my imagination though...
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      03-24-2007, 11:33 PM   #52
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Apparently, Getrag now makes a 7-speed dual clutch for RWD chassis that's rated for 600NM. Interesting.
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      03-24-2007, 11:40 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maq View Post
The BMW 7-speed SMG III, or Getrag 7AMI550, has an unconventional shift pattern (shown below) that is designed to be operated by a computer controlled hydraulic system.
Thanks for the pic - this is what I was talking about in a previous post, although my memory failed me considerably on the actually patern itself.

Quote:
It is not possible in any way or form to modify this gearbox into a conventional H pattern manual. A manual version must have totally different/redesigned internals and quite likely new casing. That's a lot of development to do, and is likely to cost a lot. I'm under the impression that if it was worth it, BMW/Getrag would have done so already.
Perhaps, but the I still think it is logical to assume a 7 speed manual from Getrag or some other company will eventually exist. Probaby by end of decade.
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      03-25-2007, 08:41 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maq View Post
The BMW 7-speed SMG III, or Getrag 7AMI550, has an unconventional shift pattern (shown below) that is designed to be operated by a computer controlled hydraulic system.

It is not possible in any way or form to modify this gearbox into a conventional H pattern manual. A manual version must have totally different/redesigned internals and quite likely new casing. That's a lot of development to do, and is likely to cost a lot. I'm under the impression that if it was worth it, BMW/Getrag would have done so already.

Personally, I always thought a 7-speed manual would have a dogleg first and a electronic reverse that's engaged by a button. It's purely my imagination though...

Nice find. I remember BMW was claiming this was the first transmission that was made specifically for Sequential shifting before the E60 M5 was released.

I had a chat with a credible person online claiming he works for BMW (so take this with a grain of salt)....the new M3 will be a 6 speed either in manual format or the new version of sequential.

I wonder if future sequentials will be custom built or be just a control unit on the side of a regular manual tranny
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      03-25-2007, 09:44 PM   #55
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Here's an in-depth description of the new M3 motor:

Winding Road Issue 20
http://windingroad.com/download/

You need to register though to get the download, but it's worth it.
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      03-25-2007, 11:44 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maynardc View Post
Here's an in-depth description of the new M3 motor:

Winding Road Issue 20
http://windingroad.com/download/
Screenshots...




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      03-26-2007, 12:52 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Transmission: This engine is screaming for a close ratio 7 speed gearbox. If BMW launches the M3 with a manual 6 speed, it is going to hurt the perception of the new car. I would wait for a better transmission

Other thoughts???
Agreed, if it comes out with an underperforming gear box I will retract my deposit and wait for an 2nd gen e92 M3.
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      03-26-2007, 07:24 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
SMG rules.....

+1
A sports car must have a sporty gearbox, customers that want a great auto should order the 335. I often outran better cars in my E46 SMG because the other driver missed a gear.
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      03-26-2007, 03:50 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REP1KRR View Post
Screenshots...
Thanks for sharing the article.

According to the article, the customers are able to order SMG IV in mid 08. I'd imagine BMW will incorporate an optimized DSG like mechanism with SMG gear box and called it SMG IV instead of ZSG from marketing perspective. This will be the best of both world while keeping the SMG crowd happy.
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      03-26-2007, 03:57 PM   #60
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Quote:
SMG rules.....
-1

Got to have the manual clutch for fun.

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      03-27-2007, 01:45 AM   #61
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SMG

I got my first E46 M3 in 2001 it was a manual and I thought it was great. In 2003 with all the talk about SMG I traded in my manual for a SMG it took me about a month to actually start enjoying the SMG, I initially hated it and in the end I fell in love with the SMG. My point to this post is we must trust BMW and BMW must not “sell-out”. Look at the shape of the current 7 series when it came out everyone hated it now all the manufacturers are copying the look.
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      03-28-2007, 03:13 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Nice find. I remember BMW was claiming this was the first transmission that was made specifically for Sequential shifting before the E60 M5 was released.

I had a chat with a credible person online claiming he works for BMW (so take this with a grain of salt)....the new M3 will be a 6 speed either in manual format or the new version of sequential.

I wonder if future sequentials will be custom built or be just a control unit on the side of a regular manual tranny
Sorry to quote myself but attached is part of a document from the E60 M5 product information guide.

Notice that the manual tranny is specifically built for SMG so the shift patterns would be messed up if you tried to shift manually. Also BMW seems to rule out manually shifting 7 gears.

So I wonder if the M3 tranny will be just a regular 6 speed with a DCT / ZSG / SMG control unit or if it will be built ground up as a sequential box.

BTW....isn't the transmission sexy??
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      03-28-2007, 10:30 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbo View Post
Agreed, if it comes out with an underperforming gear box I will retract my deposit and wait for an 2nd gen e92 M3.
Not me. I'll just lease for 2 yrs and wait for the next gen M3.
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      03-28-2007, 02:58 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carnuts3 View Post
Not me. I'll just lease for 2 yrs and wait for the next gen M3.
Hmm... Great idea.

My lease comes up in Jan of this year, and I am hopping to upgrade to the new M then. But, I would really like to have the SMG/ZSG version. I could totally do a 2 year lease and then move up the 'newer' one later...

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      03-29-2007, 01:10 PM   #65
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BMW loves engine of the year honours

Just a thought, forget about insurance and tax issues, do you guys think that the new S65 is 3.999 litre so that BMW can compete in the “Best Engine 3.0-litre to 4.0-litre” category and thereby standing a good chance of winning.

Awards 2007 Trophy Presentation will take place at 2pm on 9th May 2007

more info at:
http://www.ukintpress.com/engineofth...rs/winner.html

Old info: (nice to read)
BMW has scooped top honours in the 2006 International Engine of the Year awards with its 5.0-litre V10 unit from the M5 and M6. It is the second year the powerplant has won the coveted title and the first time ever that an engine has won back-to-back honours in the international awards.
A global panel of 61 motoring experts were unanimous in their opinion of the 5.0-litre V10 engine, referring to it as "a technical tour de force" and "a masterpiece". In addition to the overall title the 4,999cc powerplant beat competition from Ferrari and Mercedes-AMG to also be crowned Best Performance Engine. The BMW 3.0-litre twin-turbo diesel engine, currently featured in the 535d Saloon and Touring, also won its class and came in the top three overall for the second year in succession.

BMW's tally of overall awards and category wins now stands at 31 - far more than any other car manufacturer. The 3.2-litre engine from the BMW M3, and now in the BMW Z4 M Roadster, took top honours in its category for the sixth time in succession, another record for the Engine of the Year awards.

Jim O'Donnell, Managing Director of BMW (UK) Ltd, said: "To win the International Engine of the Year once is a great achievement but to do it twice in succession with the same engine is unprecedented. We are extremely proud of the accolades bestowed on BMW at these awards. It is the supreme recognition of all the work our engineers and designers have done to create award-winning engines."

BMW's list of honours at the International Engine of the Year Awards:

International Engine of the Year Award 2006
1 BMW 5-litre V10 (M5, M6)
2 Volkswagen 1.4-litre
3 BMW Diesel 3-litre twin turbo

Best Performance Engine Award 2006
1 BMW 5.0-litre V10
2 Ferrari 4.3-litre V8
3 Mercedes-AMG 6.0-litre twin-turbo

Best Engine Above 4-litres Award 2006
1 BMW 5.0-litre V10
2 Ferrari 4.3-litre V8
3 Mercedes AMG 6.0-litre twin-turbo

Best Engine 3.0-litre to 4.0-litre Award 2006
1 BMW 3.2-litre six-cylinder
2 Toyota 3.5-litre V6 hybrid
3 Porsche 3.8-litre six-cylinder

Best Engine 2.5-litre to 3-litre Award 2006
1 BMW 3.0-litre twin-turbo six-cylinder diesel
2 BMW 3.0-litre six-cylinder
3 Honda 3.0-litre V6 hybrid
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      04-01-2007, 07:46 PM   #66
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Long time follower, first time poster. Forgive me for ignorance. One of the most informative sights I have seen. Anyone in the know or have educated guesses as to why no DI in this motor. Scott?? The N54 uses it. Word is P-cars are soon going to employ this technology to their high strung power plants. BMW talks about efficiency with this motor. Is there any hope for E46 M3 type mpg?
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