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      03-23-2007, 07:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Actually, the traditional H pattern was limited to just four gears (three plus reverse). That's why it was called the H pattern. As time went on, they added more. Don't see why you couldn't do seven or eight or however many you want.
But surely you are limited to six forward gears and one reverse? The gear lever should sit in the middle of the gate, pull towards and up or down for first and second, push away up and down for fifth and sixth. How would it be possible to make it an intuitive change into 7th? How would you change into 7th?
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      03-23-2007, 08:29 AM   #24
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Smile

First post here, and I thought i'd make it a good'n with a link to a couple of sound clips of the new V8 .... enjoy!

http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/news/de...?storyId=16061

She's a little screamer!!

To add my 2 pence worth to the discussions around disappointment with the engine outputs, I think people have to realise that this new engine was never going to be released at the maximum of it's possible spec, due to the fact that it has to last for around 7 years, or possibly 15 if the I6 was anything to go by, and therefore BMW will have planned model year changes, possible increases in displacement and of course the much rumoured CSL. If the engine was at the top spec from the beginning the costs to make noticeable improvements would be infeasible.

I would imagine that with sligthly improved breathing and a less restrictive 100 cell cats, the engine would produce another 5-10% more power, and that is likely what the CSL will get. No doubt in future years the engine will be increased to 4.2 and then maybe 4.5 litres.

Personally I would be more interested in them sticking with this engine size and output and focus their efforts on getting the weight of the car down to 1350kilos (or less) but it's much easier (and less costly) to give the car more power than it is to give it less weight.

The M3 is going to face more competition than ever in the next few years, and as it has always been, the dynamics are what will define it as the measure of its competitors, not outright straight line speed.

I also don't see BMW being able to get below 4.5secs to 60 whilst sticking with a 50:50 weight distribution. If you look at the 911GT3, it has similar power and torque, but weighs approx. 1395kgs, and that does 0-60 in 4.2secs, with a weight distribution of 63:37(?) .... just my opinion, but maybe i'm wrong.

Good site by the way. Lots of good info! :rocks:
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      03-23-2007, 08:30 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mofomat View Post
But surely you are limited to six forward gears and one reverse? The gear lever should sit in the middle of the gate, pull towards and up or down for first and second, push away up and down for fifth and sixth. How would it be possible to make it an intuitive change into 7th? How would you change into 7th?
Why couldn't it rest in neutral in the dead center of the gate? I'ts been years since I drove a 4-speed (and I never drove a 3 speed) but I'm fairly certain that's how they were set up.

If are talking about the actually shift pattern of BMW's 7 speed used with the SMG setup in the M5/M6, then yes I am aware that those transmission would have a strange pattern if shifted manually. Something like this if I recall (though I am going purely from memory):

1 2 3 4

5 6 7 R

But there's no reason that they could not build a 7 speed transmission with a normal shift pattern if they wanted it to be shifted manually.
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      03-23-2007, 09:09 AM   #26
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7 Speed Manual

Personally, I would wait for the SMG / ZSG and I hope they don't do a 6MT, it would not suit this engine IMHO.

2 4 6 R
1 3 5 7
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      03-23-2007, 10:16 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Why couldn't it rest in neutral in the dead center of the gate? I'ts been years since I drove a 4-speed (and I never drove a 3 speed) but I'm fairly certain that's how they were set up.

If are talking about the actually shift pattern of BMW's 7 speed used with the SMG setup in the M5/M6, then yes I am aware that those transmission would have a strange pattern if shifted manually. Something like this if I recall (though I am going purely from memory):

1 2 3 4

5 6 7 R

But there's no reason that they could not build a 7 speed transmission with a normal shift pattern if they wanted it to be shifted manually.
Because it would be incredibly difficult to change into the desired gear quickly and without having to be very careful which gear you are selecting. The difference with a 4 speed gearbox is that it's very easy to select each gear without having to think about it. Up/towards you for 1st, down/towards you for 2nd, etc. With a six speed gearbox it's easy too. Up/towards you for 1st, Up for third, down for 4th etc.

How could you do it with a seven speed manual box? Assuming it's

1 3 5 7

2 4 6

How would you be able to select 1st, 3rd, 5th or 7th easily and quickly based on feel alone?
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      03-23-2007, 10:42 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mofomat View Post
How would you be able to select 1st, 3rd, 5th or 7th easily and quickly based on feel alone?
I don't know but I'll bet BMW could figure it out. Keep in mind, this same kind of issue would have come up when the first 5 and 6 speeds were developed as well. I just don't see it as a major engineering hurdle. I'll bet we do see a seven speed manual transmission on a high perfomance car at some point in the future.
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      03-23-2007, 10:50 AM   #29
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Did anyone check out the odfficial specs yet from BMW on worldcarfans also Kudos again to Alpine325ci for his incredible job on the sedan M3. Here's the link for the engine specs & pics.
http://www.worldcarfans.com/news.cfm...gine-in-detail
sorry you'll have to copy & paste it
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      03-23-2007, 12:01 PM   #30
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I'm not too worried about the torque, as long as they put a 7 speed in it as mentioned earlier. With proper gearing It should still really push you back in the seat. Looks like they're following the F1 technology more. Higher revs with less torque.
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      03-23-2007, 12:10 PM   #31
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Yup looking at the power curve and torque curve am sure the new M3 will smoke the 335i's diesel like curve plus the drop off after 5k rpm. Let's see what the US C&D testers can do this fall, I mean for 0-60 mph time.
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      03-23-2007, 12:51 PM   #32
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Possible 7-speed manual pattern

BMW always had reverse gear near 1st gear position.

It may look something like:

R 1 3 5 7
|_|_|_|_|
.. | | |
.. 2 4 6

So far the picture shown from M3 concept and mule indicated there is a MT, has anyone confirmed if it is a 6 or 7 speed box from BMW official? I'd prefer SMG/ZSG with either 7 or 8 speed on the new V8.
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      03-23-2007, 01:46 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mii View Post
Can anyone share technical aspect of intake pipe fuel injection on the new V8?
Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
I believe you are asking about the 8 individual butterflies throttle bodies.....If you are....

BMW M engines (except the E36 USA spec M3) uses individual throttle bodies for each cylinder. With this engine, BMW is stating that to have the absolute best throttle response, it is critical the distance between the butterfly and intake is minimal.

This means you cannot have a mass air flow sensor to meter the air, instead it uses the butterfly position, throttle position, idle adjust etc to infer the air volume etc....

Just a fancy way to preserve responsiveness of the M engines....

Was this what you were asking?
That's some major misleanding info.

Intake pipe fuel injection is a fuel injection method, it has nothing to do with air intake or throttle bodies. It's the most common/conventional injection scheme, the injectors are placed inside the intake manifold and squirt fuel at the intake valve/air stream. In a direct inject engine, the injectors are placed inside the combustion chambers.

Throttle body and MAF sensor are what control air flow, they have nothing to do with fuel injection.
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      03-23-2007, 02:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maq View Post
That's some major misleanding info.

Intake pipe fuel injection is a fuel injection method, it has nothing to do with air intake or throttle bodies. It's the most common/conventional injection scheme, the injectors are placed inside the intake manifold and squirt fuel at the intake valve/air stream. In a direct inject engine, the injectors are placed inside the combustion chambers.

Throttle body and MAF sensor are what control air flow, they have nothing to do with fuel injection.
No room in the V10 (picture below) or the V8 heads for DI.....

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      03-23-2007, 02:15 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Torque = Weight
Weight = bad

It is all about the torque curve and not the absolute number. This engine delivers the flatest torque curve I have ever seen for an atmospheric engine. You will be push back into your seat and it will keep you there.
You are right, it is all about "area under the curve".

But I fail to see why a flat curve at 296lb-ft, 3k-7k rpms is preferable to one that offers 296 lb-ft from 3k-7k rpms but peaks at 340lb-ft at say 5500rpm. Add a slightly different software module to the 296-340-296 version and it too becomes flat.

Perhaps you can explain your wonderment at this "feat"? To me, the broad high-torque band is more impressive than the shape being flat, but again no more impressive than other performance engines I've named.
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      03-23-2007, 02:26 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sdiver68 View Post
You are right, it is all about "area under the curve".

But I fail to see why a flat curve at 296lb-ft, 3k-7k rpms is preferable to one that offers 296 lb-ft from 3k-7k rpms but peaks at 340lb-ft at say 5500rpm. Add a slightly different software module to the 296-340-296 version and it too becomes flat.

Perhaps you can explain your wonderment at this "feat"? To me, the broad high-torque band is more impressive than the shape being flat, but again no more impressive than other performance engines I've named.
I am amazed because BMW has made an atmospheric engine as flexible as a turbo motor. So a driver won't need to change gears as much as when he is puttering around....

BUT....and a big one....

When the driver wants to step on it this engine obliges with revs up to 8400 rpm with a little bit of torque fall off. Revs + Torque = Work = Acceleration.

In many ways the new BMW S65B40 is like a mullet.... Flexible on one hand and ready to party of the other..... This is what the other engines you listed don't have (maybe except the LS7)




A side note: However, in comparing the torque curves of the V10 vs. V8, it looks like BMW made a conscience decision to keep the torque curve flat and allow some trail off at the higher rpms....whereas the V10 torque starts later but keeps it better in the high end.



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      03-23-2007, 09:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mii View Post
BMW always had reverse gear near 1st gear position.

It may look something like:

R 1 3 5 7
|_|_|_|_|
.. | | |
.. 2 4 6

So far the picture shown from M3 concept and mule indicated there is a MT, has anyone confirmed if it is a 6 or 7 speed box from BMW official? I'd prefer SMG/ZSG with either 7 or 8 speed on the new V8.
Looks pretty symmetrical to me
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      03-23-2007, 11:28 PM   #38
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in my opinion, when the new M3 comes out all the "torque doubters" will dissapear. we all know BMW has been concentrating on weight, and now we know that even the engine (which we all thought would be heavy, right) is actually significantly LIGHTER than the one in the e46. for me the main concern about weight was the engine, and now that that has been put to rest, i'm positive this car is going to be quite the performer. think e46 m3 with 100 more horsepower at higher RPM's, and significantly more torque at a lower RPM to boost performance off the line. shouldn't weigh any more than the e46 M3, imo. this is all speculation but i think people are being too negative.

the e46 M3 could hit 0-60 in 4.7-4.9 seconds

with more a wider, more powerful torque curve and 100 more horsepower, with the same weight and better gearing due to the higher redline, expect this car to run low 4 second 60 runs and low 12 quarter miles. not to mention what it'll be able to do in the turns. this is going to be a SERIOUS performance car.

BMW is not just going to sit back and let the IS-F outperform the M3. i can gurantee you that.
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      03-23-2007, 11:59 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
I am amazed because BMW has made an atmospheric engine as flexible as a turbo motor. So a driver won't need to change gears as much as when he is puttering around....

BUT....and a big one....

When the driver wants to step on it this engine obliges with revs up to 8400 rpm with a little bit of torque fall off. Revs + Torque = Work = Acceleration.

In many ways the new BMW S65B40 is like a mullet.... Flexible on one hand and ready to party of the other..... This is what the other engines you listed don't have (maybe except the LS7)




A side note: However, in comparing the torque curves of the V10 vs. V8, it looks like BMW made a conscience decision to keep the torque curve flat and allow some trail off at the higher rpms....whereas the V10 torque starts later but keeps it better in the high end.



Nice Mullet and banana hammock!
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      03-24-2007, 12:12 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maq View Post
Intake pipe fuel injection is a fuel injection method, it has nothing to do with air intake or throttle bodies. It's the most common/conventional injection scheme, the injectors are placed inside the intake manifold and squirt fuel at the intake valve/air stream. In a direct inject engine, the injectors are placed inside the combustion chambers.
Throttle body and MAF sensor are what control air flow, they have nothing to do with fuel injection.
Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
No room in the V10 (picture below) or the V8 heads for DI.....
Guess not much luck with HPI in this generation of V8.

Nevertheless, the HP and flat torque are still impressive in the new V8.
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      03-24-2007, 12:51 AM   #41
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6 Speed

Had an internet conversation with a good guy who says he is from BMW and he claims the M3 will only get 6 gears in the Manual format and the DCT format (DSG / ZSG). He seems very credible.

BMW may be trying to save costs by going with a modular 6 speed. And the compromise they are making in the last 1500-2000 rpm to allow a flat torque curve in the lower RPMs would support a 6 speed box....

Oh well....I guess we will see.
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      03-24-2007, 05:04 AM   #42
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7sp

Quote:
Originally Posted by T Bone View Post
Had an internet conversation with a good guy who says he is from BMW and he claims the M3 will only get 6 gears in the Manual format and the DCT format (DSG / ZSG). He seems very credible.

BMW may be trying to save costs by going with a modular 6 speed. And the compromise they are making in the last 1500-2000 rpm to allow a flat torque curve in the lower RPMs would support a 6 speed box....

Oh well....I guess we will see.
I'd place money on 7sp SMG or 7sp ZSG. We have already heard the MT is 6sp and a new design built from the ground up for this car. As most of us have been saying this thing crys out for a very close ratio 7sp. ZSG will be icing on the cake with essentially 0 second shift times!
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      03-24-2007, 05:21 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I'd place money on 7sp SMG or 7sp ZSG. We have already heard the MT is 6sp and a new design built from the ground up for this car. As most of us have been saying this thing crys out for a very close ratio 7sp. ZSG will be icing on the cake with essentially 0 second shift times!
Personally I would hope they don't use 7-speeds. I have a 7-speed box on my ML63 and I never use 7th. It's something like 38mph/1000rpm and therefore only useful(ish) for cruising.

If it needs the torque multiplying assistance of gearing then I would rather BMW play around with the final drive and lessen the top speed potential (which will be limited to 163mph after all). This new engine sounds smooth enough so probably wouldn't suffer from engine noise at cruising speeds.

I am planning on choosing a 6-speed manual for the M3 and then upgrading to the CSL when that arrives in a few years time. I am hoping that has SMG rather than a ZSG box at the time, but we'll see.
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      03-24-2007, 05:47 AM   #44
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Various

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steved View Post
Personally I would hope they don't use 7-speeds. I have a 7-speed box on my ML63 and I never use 7th. It's something like 38mph/1000rpm and therefore only useful(ish) for cruising.

If it needs the torque multiplying assistance of gearing then I would rather BMW play around with the final drive and lessen the top speed potential (which will be limited to 163mph after all). This new engine sounds smooth enough so probably wouldn't suffer from engine noise at cruising speeds.

I am planning on choosing a 6-speed manual for the M3 and then upgrading to the CSL when that arrives in a few years time. I am hoping that has SMG rather than a ZSG box at the time, but we'll see.
-I suspect a pretty short final drive.

-Wouldn't 190 in an unrestricted M3 be nice though - what a thrill.

-Isn't 2k rpm nice for mpg also.

-What is your preference for SMG over ZSG?
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