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      05-03-2011, 02:08 AM   #1
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Thinking about buying an E90 M3 - *Some Questions*

I heard BMW is stopping production on the E90 M3 after this year until the F30 lands in summer 2013 (client advisor at local dealer told me that BMW is going to stop producing the M3 sedan), and my brother just placed an order for an E93 M3 so I got the bug again to want to get me an M3... and I really want the sedan so I guess there's some urgency, if that's true.

It's been a while since I've done this so I was hoping you guys could check my math:

I spec'd out a M3 sedan on BMW's site for $74,247 MSRP. European Delivery invoice is $47,400 for the base M3 sedan so that would shave $8,500 off -- I haven't even done the calculations for what the invoice prices take off the options yet. So if I add $800 (profit for dealer to do the paperwork -- is $800 enough of built-in profit for them?), that gets me to $7,700 off. So $74,247 subtract $7,700 is $66,547.

Based on estimating a payment for a 36 month lease at 10K miles/year on BMWUSA's website with $7,700 down (the European Delivery discount minus $800 for dealer profit), it shows a monthly payment of $840.

NOW, I remember hearing never to put your own money down as a down payment on a lease because if the car is totaled, you will loose it all? Is that *really* true? Reason I ask is because if it's not, what I'd like to do is sell the Jeep I'm driving now (which I own out right) and put the $18K I get from it into the down payment. So with the $7,700 + $18,000 from the Jeep sale + $500 from BMW CCA rebate = $26,200 down payment. And if it's a $26,200 down payment, BMW's payment estimator shows a monthly of $282 (heck yeah!). Plus, I suppose once I add the discount for all of the options that bring them to invoice price, that will probably shave even a little more off the monthly. (Alternatively, if I would in fact loose all of the down payment if the car got totaled, I could put the cash from the sale of the Jeep into a separate checking account and just draw part of the monthly off of that each month -- although that would make the monthly payment about $40/month higher.)

Then, I suppose the question is how much will tax add to that monthly payment? Is it just $280 x California's 9.25% tax, or do you have to pay tax on what the monthly would be before any down payment?

If the sedan wasn't going out of production, I really wouldn't do this right now simply because it would strain my finances a bit to do it, but if the sedan really is going out of production, I can make the finance end work assuming my math above lines up.

Thanks in advance for any help!
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      05-03-2011, 08:48 AM   #2
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Anywhere from $500 to 1k for dealer profit is fair for euro delivery.

As for the rest, I will let the lease experts comment. Personally sounds like you stretching a little too far to get the M3. Maybe not a good idea.
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      05-03-2011, 09:57 AM   #3
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M3 sedan on BMW's site for $74,247 MSRP. European Delivery invoice is $47,400 for the base M3 sedan. That's a typo right, 47,400 invoice? Sounds like a good deal to me either way though, I love my E90 I am no leasing expert though, but I always heard don't put money down as well.
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      05-03-2011, 10:12 AM   #4
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I am about to order a e90 M3 myself with European Delivery.

Cannot comment on leasing since I am purchasing.
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      05-03-2011, 10:36 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurohouou View Post
European Delivery invoice is $47,400 for the base M3 sedan. That's a typo right, 47,400 invoice?
I'm pretty sure he means the $47K is the ED Invoice price for the M3 sedan base, i.e. you still have to add options.
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      05-03-2011, 11:03 AM   #6
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If you are putting that much down, just take advantage of the low finance rates and actually buy/finance it, you should still have a reasonable payment. Unless you own your own business and have the tax advantage from leasing. I cannot fathom why you would put so much down on a lease. Also I believe the taxes for a lease are still calculated on the selling price of the car, not your monthly payment.
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      05-03-2011, 01:08 PM   #7
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Here is the ED invoice price sheet for the car and options. Add up everything you want and don't forget delivery and gas guzzler tax. Then add $500 to $1,000 for dealer mark-up. There is also a bank fee of somewhere around $800 for a lease.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=427717

Here are the lease rates for April. It also explains how to calculate the payment. I don't think May's rates have been announced yet.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512952

Here is another guide to calculating lease payments:

http://www.leaseguide.com/lease08.htm

Read up on doing MSD (multiple security deposits) instead of putting money down. If you have cash left over after the MSDs, just stick it in a bank account and take out a little each month to put towards the payment. That way if the car is totaled you still have the cash in the bank in addition to the security deposits, which you will get back.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=134206&page=1

The $500 from BMWCCA is a rebate, not a discount. You get a check after you return from ED and submit the paperwork. It won't reduce your payment.

Finally, you can contact one of the dealer sponsors on this site for an actual quote.

Good luck.
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      05-03-2011, 08:55 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
If you are putting that much down, just take advantage of the low finance rates and actually buy/finance it, you should still have a reasonable payment. Unless you own your own business and have the tax advantage from leasing. I cannot fathom why you would put so much down on a lease. Also I believe the taxes for a lease are still calculated on the selling price of the car, not your monthly payment.
I own my own business, but don't know about the tax advantage. Please explain.
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      05-03-2011, 09:20 PM   #9
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OP if you would like a quote or any assistance feel free to shoot Ryan an email (link in my signature).

as far as the e90 ending soon we have yet to hear anything from BMW stating that, however it has been proven that the guys on the forums know a lot of more info then us dealers and also a lot faster
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      05-03-2011, 11:49 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by signes View Post
If you are putting that much down, just take advantage of the low finance rates and actually buy/finance it, you should still have a reasonable payment. Unless you own your own business and have the tax advantage from leasing. I cannot fathom why you would put so much down on a lease. Also I believe the taxes for a lease are still calculated on the selling price of the car, not your monthly payment.
This^^

You're better off taking that cash and doing MSDs + leaving the rest in the bank and using toward your monthly payments. Or as previously mentioned just finance instead of leasing.

The tax advantage is; You use your car for your business and therefore write off the monthly payments as a business expense.
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      05-04-2011, 12:38 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlosso View Post
Here is the ED invoice price sheet for the car and options. Add up everything you want and don't forget delivery and gas guzzler tax. Then add $500 to $1,000 for dealer mark-up. There is also a bank fee of somewhere around $800 for a lease.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=427717

Here are the lease rates for April. It also explains how to calculate the payment. I don't think May's rates have been announced yet.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512952

Here is another guide to calculating lease payments:

http://www.leaseguide.com/lease08.htm

Read up on doing MSD (multiple security deposits) instead of putting money down. If you have cash left over after the MSDs, just stick it in a bank account and take out a little each month to put towards the payment. That way if the car is totaled you still have the cash in the bank in addition to the security deposits, which you will get back.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=134206&page=1

The $500 from BMWCCA is a rebate, not a discount. You get a check after you return from ED and submit the paperwork. It won't reduce your payment.

Finally, you can contact one of the dealer sponsors on this site for an actual quote.

Good luck.
Thanks, Merlosso!

OK, took a look at all of the above and I'm a little confused.

Below is a screenshot of the spec'd out car I want. So MSRP is $74,247, including destination fee, but not including gas guzzler or sales tax. At invoice, it specs out to $62,960. Then, if I add $750 for dealer profit, it would be $63,710.

In regards to the $800 bank fee you mentioned, is that because it's a lease? Because here's the thing: My credit isn't great right now and I'm certain BMW won't lease to me. What I could do though is pay the lease (the monthly payment for all 36 months) in full upon taking delivery of the car and then I'm assuming I wouldn't need to have great credit since they wouldn't be giving me credit as the entire lease would be paid for for all 3 years. First off, is that an accurate assumption? And if no, would that delete the $800 bank fee? If not, let's tack that on there, too and we have $64,510.

In regards to the MSD, from what I understand, if I put down 7 security deposits that will lower the money factor by 0.00049 and bring .00200 down to 0.00151. Is that right? How much is one security deposit? If I remember right, for my 2006 it was $650, so would that be $4,550 to bring the money factor down to 0.00151?

So if the car is $64,510 and it's a 36 month lease and it's 10K miles/year (which bumps the residual up to 61% of MSRP) and the money factor is 0.00151, what would the monthly payment equal after adding the gas guzzler tax (how much is that?) and the 9.25% California sales tax (+ any other fees??)?

I wish I could make this calculation myself but it's confusing as hell to me!

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      05-04-2011, 12:40 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by status38 View Post
This^^

You're better off taking that cash and doing MSDs + leaving the rest in the bank and using toward your monthly payments. Or as previously mentioned just finance instead of leasing.

The tax advantage is; You use your car for your business and therefore write off the monthly payments as a business expense.
Thanks for the info about the tax advantage.

Don't have the cash to finance -- it would be much more than leasing.
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      05-04-2011, 12:50 AM   #13
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Did I do this right? If so, I'm getting excited as the $18K from the sale of my Jeep would cover $500 each month over 36 months, leaving $264/month. Is the only thing I left out the gas guzzler tax? What other fees does BMW charge before you can drive off with the car? I want to roll as much as possible into the lease.

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      05-04-2011, 07:17 AM   #14
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Again im no expert on leasing but i heard that if you do ED, then theres a slight markup on the base money factor. Not sure exactly what it is.
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      05-04-2011, 10:43 AM   #15
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Quote:
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Again im no expert on leasing but i heard that if you do ED, then theres a slight markup on the base money factor. Not sure exactly what it is.
Really? Can anyone verify?
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      05-04-2011, 11:12 AM   #16
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Quote:
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Really? Can anyone verify?
Yes, that is true. It is an additional .00030 for ED because you don't make your second payment. You still calculate your payments the same way and by 36 months but you don't pay the second one.

To answer your other questions, the bank fee is because it's a lease. I don't think you can avoid it by paying in full.

The security deposits are your monthly payment rounded up to the nearest $50. I don't know if that is before or after tax. Worst case is that it is after tax and with a calculated payment of $764.38, your deposits would be $800 each ($5,600).

The residuals for sedans went up to 63% for 10k mile leases in May (just announced yesterday afternoon, see link below). If you used April's, update it and it will reduce the payment a little.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525614

Do you have an iPad? I made a spreadsheet in Numbers to calculate lease payments for the E90 M3 on European Delivery a couple months ago when I was trying to decide between leasing and financing (I decided to finance). You're right, calculating leases is very confusing. I was able to get within pennies of the dealer quote I got so I'm pretty confident I have it all figured out. I can clean it up and send it to you if you'd like.

Some additional advice: After you have a good estimate of the payment, you should contact a dealer for a quote and fill out the credit application. If you get approved, find out from the dealer what the money factor and residual value is. Don't offer to pay up front or put down money to reduce the cap cost unless you have to. Keep your money in the bank and use it to make your monthly payments. Or after the lease starts, pay as many payments as you want in advance.
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      05-04-2011, 03:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlosso View Post
Yes, that is true. It is an additional .00030 for ED because you don't make your second payment. You still calculate your payments the same way and by 36 months but you don't pay the second one.

To answer your other questions, the bank fee is because it's a lease. I don't think you can avoid it by paying in full.

The security deposits are your monthly payment rounded up to the nearest $50. I don't know if that is before or after tax. Worst case is that it is after tax and with a calculated payment of $764.38, your deposits would be $800 each ($5,600).

The residuals for sedans went up to 63% for 10k mile leases in May (just announced yesterday afternoon, see link below). If you used April's, update it and it will reduce the payment a little.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=525614

Do you have an iPad? I made a spreadsheet in Numbers to calculate lease payments for the E90 M3 on European Delivery a couple months ago when I was trying to decide between leasing and financing (I decided to finance). You're right, calculating leases is very confusing. I was able to get within pennies of the dealer quote I got so I'm pretty confident I have it all figured out. I can clean it up and send it to you if you'd like.

Some additional advice: After you have a good estimate of the payment, you should contact a dealer for a quote and fill out the credit application. If you get approved, find out from the dealer what the money factor and residual value is. Don't offer to pay up front or put down money to reduce the cap cost unless you have to. Keep your money in the bank and use it to make your monthly payments. Or after the lease starts, pay as many payments as you want in advance.
Thanks, Merlosso!

Yeah, if you could send that Numbers doc to me that would be great!! My e-mail is lkalex1@gmail.com.

I guess the fact that the money factor is an additional 0.00030, but the residual went up by 2% should even each other out.

So the bank fee is in. 10-4 on the security deposits. What about the gas guzzler tax? How much extra is that? I take it it's a set fee (like $800 or something) and not a percentage?

Also, what are the complete other fees for drive-off/taking delivery? Is it just the title and registration and that's it, or does BMW have other small fees that you have to pay that can't be rolled into the lease, too? (Did this 4 years ago on my 330i, so I've forgotten.)

As for filling out a credit application, it ain't going to fly. My credit score is in the 500s somewhere as a result of some troubles I had when the economy crashed a couple years ago. The question is really whether BMW will even approve the lease if I pay it all in advance. I'd think so, but you never know. You don't know if they'd do that, do you? I.e. Give them a cashier's check for the full cost of the 36 month lease when I go to pick up the car or sign the contract?
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      05-04-2011, 03:38 PM   #18
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Quote:
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What about the gas guzzler tax? How much extra is that? I take it it's a set fee (like $800 or something) and not a percentage?
It's $1,300 and it's already included in the $74,247 even though it's not listed (which is odd because it should be). If you add up the individual prices except for the $500 trim and $2000 leather (which is included in other packages), it's exactly $1,300 short.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
Also, what are the complete other fees for drive-off/taking delivery? Is it just the title and registration and that's it, or does BMW have other small fees that you have to pay that can't be rolled into the lease, too? (Did this 4 years ago on my 330i, so I've forgotten.)
Probably depends on the dealer and the state you're in. The lease fee is around $725 (I just looked through my old email and I think that's what it is). There shouldn't be much more than that and DMV fees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCali View Post
As for filling out a credit application, it ain't going to fly. My credit score is in the 500s somewhere as a result of some troubles I had when the economy crashed a couple years ago. The question is really whether BMW will even approve the lease if I pay it all in advance. I'd think so, but you never know. You don't know if they'd do that, do you? I.e. Give them a cashier's check for the full cost of the 36 month lease when I go to pick up the car or sign the contract?
Unfortunately I can't help you at all on this piece. I'm not a lease or finance expert. I'm just a guy in the market for an M3 sedan through European Delivery who's enough of a nerd to find invoice prices and formulas to put in a spreadsheet.

My thought process was that if you contacted a dealer, filled out an application and were told "sorry dude, you don't qualify" you could then follow-up with, "OK, what if I put some money down to lower the cap cost?" If they said "nope, still not gonna happen," you could then come back with "OK, what if I pay for the lease in full, in advance?"

The way I would approach it would be to try and put down as little as possible. If they would accept something as low as $5,000 down but you volunteered to pay it all in full, you would never know there was the other option.

I'll email you the spreadsheet and instructions when I get home. My iPad is wifi only and there is no wifi here at work.
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      05-04-2011, 04:06 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merlosso View Post
It's $1,300 and it's already included in the $74,247 even though it's not listed (which is odd because it should be). If you add up the individual prices except for the $500 trim and $2000 leather (which is included in other packages), it's exactly $1,300 short.



Probably depends on the dealer and the state you're in. The lease fee is around $725 (I just looked through my old email and I think that's what it is). There shouldn't be much more than that and DMV fees.



Unfortunately I can't help you at all on this piece. I'm not a lease or finance expert. I'm just a guy in the market for an M3 sedan through European Delivery who's enough of a nerd to find invoice prices and formulas to put in a spreadsheet.

My thought process was that if you contacted a dealer, filled out an application and were told "sorry dude, you don't qualify" you could then follow-up with, "OK, what if I put some money down to lower the cap cost?" If they said "nope, still not gonna happen," you could then come back with "OK, what if I pay for the lease in full, in advance?"

The way I would approach it would be to try and put down as little as possible. If they would accept something as low as $5,000 down but you volunteered to pay it all in full, you would never know there was the other option.

I'll email you the spreadsheet and instructions when I get home. My iPad is wifi only and there is no wifi here at work.
Sounds good! Really appreciate all of the help!! I'll look for the spreadsheet later to confirm my math. Then, after that, will take your advice and start reaching out to dealerships and see what they can do. I'm guessing though that it isn't up to the individual dealership, but up to BMW Financial if they will accept the lease, right? So perhaps I should just call them and ask? I'm just saying that I'm not sure it's a point which can be negotiated and probably is already outlined in black and white what they are either able to accept or not accept. So instead of throwing a ball back and forth with the dealers, it would be easier for me to ask BMW Financial (the leasing company)?

Thanks, again! Hope this works out. If I could get my M3 for an effective payment of under $300/month, I'd be as happy as a pig in a slop.
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      05-04-2011, 09:07 PM   #20
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Remember when doing the lease calculation, the gas guzzler tax is not residualized.
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      05-07-2011, 04:31 PM   #21
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are you sure 47k and some change for ED?
I just added up the total and It came out with 61180k for ED

Last edited by positiveions; 05-07-2011 at 04:40 PM.
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      05-07-2011, 06:37 PM   #22
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are you sure 47k and some change for ED?
I just added up the total and It came out with 61180k for ED
Yes, for the ED M3 Sedan.

If you get it thru one of the ED vendors in this site all the options are also at invoice... including Individual.
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