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      04-30-2011, 02:03 PM   #1
TudorM3
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Track and Road brakes/pads

I've had my E90 M3 (late 2009) for about 6 months and have recently taken it on a track which I know well, so I was pushing the car quite hard and loved the first 1.5 laps of each session.

Then after a few heavy braking corners (from 140mph), I felt the brakes start to vibrate and had to back off which came as a big disappointment as the car was really shifting and I was amazed how good the grip was.

I still really enjoyed myself but felt the brakes really let it down.

So before I take it on again I really feel I need to do something about it; which will either be swapping the pads for something else or the whole system if necessary.

I would like something which is good for the occasional track day but also good for road use as I don't want to keep changing things around.

Not too worried about spending some money but it has to be reasonable.

Can anybody offer me some advise?

Thanks.
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      04-30-2011, 02:08 PM   #2
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Try some proper track pads before considering anything more extreme. I would not be surprised at some fade with the OE pads, but the vibration thing is a bit puzzling. If the vibration was constant, I would suspect some uneven street pad material transfer from overheating.
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      04-30-2011, 03:13 PM   #3
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You cant' expect street pads to take you down't from 140mph repeatedly and not get cooked.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      04-30-2011, 08:03 PM   #4
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Get some decent pads that will work better on the track and still be livable on the street, some high temp brake fluid, and wipe both sides of the rotors with a windex soaked rag. Trust me you will be amazed at how the windex removes all of the pad deposits and gets rid of the vibration.
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      04-30-2011, 09:07 PM   #5
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Same thing happened to me, so I feel for you. It probably makes sense to try proper pads before going down the BBK road. I'd strongly suggest the new Pagid RS29's. They're pricey pads, but they work brilliantly. Shoukd take care of most of the fade on the track and they're fine for the street as long as you don't mind the extra dust.
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      04-30-2011, 09:28 PM   #6
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If you don't plan to swap back and forth, Endless MX72 or ME20 is the best for DD and track. They are a bit pricy compare to Hawk, etc., but they last much much longer. About 15 track days on Endless VS 2-3 track days on most of Hawk track pads.
Pagid RS14 and RS29 would be another choice too if you don't care noise on streets.
Also, brake fluid is another thing to concern. Change often.
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      05-01-2011, 07:34 AM   #7
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Thanks very much, I think I'll try the Pagid RS29's as suggested above, and change the fluid.

How noisy are they on the road? How noticeable is it, if it's squeaks etc at lights and round-a-bouts thats fine

ring007 do you wipe the rotors just before you track it or more regularly ?

Again thanks for all the advise!
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      05-01-2011, 09:03 AM   #8
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      05-01-2011, 10:19 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TudorM3 View Post
Thanks very much, I think I'll try the Pagid RS29's as suggested above, and change the fluid.

How noisy are they on the road? How noticeable is it, if it's squeaks etc at lights and round-a-bouts thats fine

ring007 do you wipe the rotors just before you track it or more regularly ?

Again thanks for all the advise!
They are very noisy. The other problem with using track pads on the street, they never reach their optimum operating temp range, so the pad compound never flows, and is extremely abrasive. That is why most pad makers recommend driving home from the track with the track pads. Under the cooler conditions, the pad is more abrasive and actually cleans the rotor, so then it is prepared for the street pads. Better to switch pads for their respective designed use.
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      05-01-2011, 12:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elh0102 View Post
They are very noisy. The other problem with using track pads on the street, they never reach their optimum operating temp range, so the pad compound never flows, and is extremely abrasive. That is why most pad makers recommend driving home from the track with the track pads. Under the cooler conditions, the pad is more abrasive and actually cleans the rotor, so then it is prepared for the street pads. Better to switch pads for their respective designed use.
have you tried the RS29's? I haven't heard more than 2 squeaks out of them in about 1.5k miles of driving, track and street (and I have my windows down 90% of the time, so believe me, I would have heard it).

they also have a decent cold bite, so I wouldn't say they're dangerous or sub-optimum at all for street use. another thing I like about the RS29's is that they're endurance pads - not a sprint pads - so they last long and don't eat through rotors like Hawk DTC 70's do. as I see it, there are only two downsides to the RS29's - the price and the added dust (like all track pads, they throw off a fair bit of dust).

I think the Endless pads should give you roughly the same experience as the RS29's, although they might be even better. they're a lot more expensive though.

I'm running a BBK btw - not sure if that affects any of the foregoing. I would imagine that your experience would be similar on stock brakes, but hopefully the experts will chime in if I'm wrong on that.

Last edited by Brosef; 05-01-2011 at 12:31 PM.
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      05-01-2011, 12:30 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
have you tried the RS29's? I haven't heard more than 2 squeaks out of them in about 1.5k miles of driving, track and street (and I have my windows down 90% of the time, so believe me, I would have heard it).

they also have a decent cold bite, so I wouldn't say they're dangerous or sub-optimum at all for street use. there are only two downsides to the RS29's - the price and the added dust (like all track pads, they throw off a fair bit of dust).

I'm running a BBK btw - not sure if that affects any of the foregoing.
If you run rs29 on 4 corners and have no noise, there's something serious wrong there... When RS29's working properly, people should be able to hear the noise from 200-500 ft away when you are slowing down to complete stop. And you should be able to hear 4 different sound levels, which is from each corner. I have cars with Brembo GT and stock brembo's with Rs29's. They make the same noise, not much difference.
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      05-01-2011, 04:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosef View Post
have you tried the RS29's? I haven't heard more than 2 squeaks out of them in about 1.5k miles of driving, track and street (and I have my windows down 90% of the time, so believe me, I would have heard it).

they also have a decent cold bite, so I wouldn't say they're dangerous or sub-optimum at all for street use. another thing I like about the RS29's is that they're endurance pads - not a sprint pads - so they last long and don't eat through rotors like Hawk DTC 70's do. as I see it, there are only two downsides to the RS29's - the price and the added dust (like all track pads, they throw off a fair bit of dust).

I think the Endless pads should give you roughly the same experience as the RS29's, although they might be even better. they're a lot more expensive though.

I'm running a BBK btw - not sure if that affects any of the foregoing. I would imagine that your experience would be similar on stock brakes, but hopefully the experts will chime in if I'm wrong on that.
Yep, I've used them, great pads. And yes, the noise will make women and children run for cover. They have better cold bite than some track pads, but, that's still what they are, and will wear the rotors prematurely compared to street pads.
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      05-01-2011, 04:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TudorM3 View Post
Thanks very much, I think I'll try the Pagid RS29's as suggested above, and change the fluid.

How noisy are they on the road? How noticeable is it, if it's squeaks etc at lights and round-a-bouts thats fine

ring007 do you wipe the rotors just before you track it or more regularly ?

Again thanks for all the advise!
I have a set of Pagids. Great for the track but noise as hell. I don't recommend them unless you plan on swapping pads. I have the Pagid Yellow. Maybe other versions are ok on the street.
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      05-01-2011, 05:12 PM   #14
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Any noise info on Endless MX72 or ME20? Stockers starting to fade and don't need a BBK yet.
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      05-01-2011, 06:25 PM   #15
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Any noise info on Endless MX72 or ME20? Stockers starting to fade and don't need a BBK yet.
Let's start a noise rating. If RS19/29 is 10/10, oem is 0/10, then MX72 would be 1/10 and ME20 would be 3/10. The cold bite is aggressive as well, they don't need to be heated up prior to get maximum braking like RS29 or RS14. They are very similar to RS29 on track duty.
However, the only problem with Endless is you need to custom order and fly them here or wait for 2-3 months to get it. And a bit pricy.

ps I have a set of ME20 for sale at the moment if anyone interested.
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      05-10-2011, 02:04 PM   #16
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You guys using the Pagrid's have you changed your brake hoses as well or do you have the originals?

I've been looking at Pagrids UK web site and I can't really see what is the difference between RS19 and RS29's, apart from they recommend the RS19's for E92, they are showing the RS29's on the rears of e46 with rs19 on the fronts. So I'm guess the RS19 will better for the heavier and more powerful E9x.
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      05-10-2011, 03:21 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wwjd15 View Post
Let's start a noise rating. If RS19/29 is 10/10, oem is 0/10, then MX72 would be 1/10 and ME20 would be 3/10. The cold bite is aggressive as well, they don't need to be heated up prior to get maximum braking like RS29 or RS14. They are very similar to RS29 on track duty.
However, the only problem with Endless is you need to custom order and fly them here or wait for 2-3 months to get it. And a bit pricy.

ps I have a set of ME20 for sale at the moment if anyone interested.
How are the Endless pads on rotors?
I have been sticking with Pagids because they have been pretty rotor friendly for me, but if Endless are comparable but without the noise, I might switch it up.
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      05-10-2011, 03:30 PM   #18
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I have the rs 29's as well and only hear minor squeaking and isn't that bad as my wife only mentioned it as an aside. I've had no issues other than the aforementioned dust buildup, but have heard the rs29's aren't as abrasive or loud as the 19's... I am pleased with them as the car is my wifes DD and my weekend track toy
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      05-10-2011, 03:45 PM   #19
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How are the Endless pads on rotors?
I have been sticking with Pagids because they have been pretty rotor friendly for me, but if Endless are comparable but without the noise, I might switch it up.
I have done about 15+ track day with Endless ME20 on AP jhook rotors in my GTR, now front pads have about 40% left, rotors should be able to use for another 6-8 track days at least. I DD and track all my cars on the same set of pads and brakes, just FYI.
My buddy's GTR have the same rotors as my car but Endless MX72 pads, he got about 15 track days out of them. Rotors died at about 18or19 track day
I had used Hawk DT60/70 before, similar performance, but loud and only last 2 track days in general.
Minted is also 2-3 track days, but it's one of the best brake pads out there. If money is not a concern, I would use this.
I just changed my ME20 to NS35 on GTR, I'm going to test it this weekend. I was told they are one of the best Endless race pads. We will see
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      05-10-2011, 08:48 PM   #20
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Thanks for the info, will try and keep tabs on mine as well. I have no real idea what to expect. Have 5 track days in the next 10 days and will see how things go from there. Am hoping the pagids last at least 10 days on them, would love 15-20, that would last the season. Will try to keep track and would appreciate any wear rates for the pagids
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      05-22-2011, 12:43 AM   #21
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Have a look at Ferodo DS2500's, 135i and 335i guys have been very happy with them.
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      05-22-2011, 09:00 AM   #22
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there is some great information in this thread. where are you guys sourcing your Endless pads at? i hear they are the best, but a lot of local shops tell me they are rather difficult to get.

wwjd15, where have you been ordering your pads? do you know if there are any shops who are willing to do a massive group buy? i am interested in getting pads for both my E46 and E90 M3 using OE calipers.
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