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      04-15-2011, 11:04 AM   #23
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Maybe the guy who CAN'T work due to putting it all on the line for his country, but not the people who decide not to- even the elderly. When SS started, the age you started receiving it was also the averge life expectency. I'm paying through the nose to support old people living off my labor for decades, and I'll never see a similar favor in return. Life expectency is just too long, and birth rates too low (which is ultimately a GOOD thing) for the SS model to work.

Old people are a vigorous voting block. Why not: they get to vote to spend other people's money.
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      04-15-2011, 11:48 AM   #24
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Maybe the guy who CAN'T work due to putting it all on the line for his country, but not the people who decide not to- even the elderly. When SS started, the age you started receiving it was also the averge life expectency. I'm paying through the nose to support old people living off my labor for decades, and I'll never see a similar favor in return. Life expectency is just too long, and birth rates too low (which is ultimately a GOOD thing) for the SS model to work.

Old people are a vigorous voting block. Why not: they get to vote to spend other people's money.

What we need are less abortions.

"The Social Security system in my opinion is a flawed design, period," Santorum said in response to a question from a caller. "But having said that, the design would work a lot better if we had stable demographic trends. The reason Social Security is in big trouble is we don’t have enough workers to support the retirees. Well, a third of all the young people in America are not in America today because of abortion, because one in three pregnancies end in abortion." Senator Rick Santorum
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      04-16-2011, 06:40 PM   #25
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What we need are less abortions.

"The Social Security system in my opinion is a flawed design, period," Santorum said in response to a question from a caller. "But having said that, the design would work a lot better if we had stable demographic trends. The reason Social Security is in big trouble is we don’t have enough workers to support the retirees. Well, a third of all the young people in America are not in America today because of abortion, because one in three pregnancies end in abortion." Senator Rick Santorum
Really?
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      04-17-2011, 11:52 PM   #26
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hes got my vote for sure!

i want him as our next president.
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      04-18-2011, 07:59 AM   #27
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Really?
My thought exactly but that's what he said.
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      04-18-2011, 11:05 AM   #28
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Santorium really fudged the numbers (it's more like 20% of pregnancies), but 1) our population is already big enough. We can't just grow forever, and the model will need to reflect that sooner or later 2) Who's to say those people would be productive, rather than a drain, on society? Crime rates dropped steeply about 16 years after Roe vs. Wade, and continue to do so, after many decades of increase up to that point. 3) just because someone has an abortion doesn't mean their are always fewer people. Sometimes someone who is young will have one and then have a child later. If they had the child while they were younger, they probably wouldn't have had one later.

If SS is to stay around at all, it shouldn't be available until you reach average life expectency, and should'nt put undue burden on workers- i.e. they should'nt have to contribute more just because the average family doesn't have 5 kids like in the 30's.

Yes- this means unless you invest wisely and save, you'll work and contribute to the economy your whole life. People should not be entitleled to take the work and productivity of others.

Last edited by carve; 04-19-2011 at 10:09 AM.
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      04-18-2011, 02:39 PM   #29
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I'll vote for him, ONLY if Trump says "You're FIRED!" to Obama on national television once he takes presidency.
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      04-18-2011, 06:21 PM   #30
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What we need are less abortions.

"The Social Security system in my opinion is a flawed design, period," Santorum said in response to a question from a caller. "But having said that, the design would work a lot better if we had stable demographic trends. The reason Social Security is in big trouble is we don’t have enough workers to support the retirees. Well, a third of all the young people in America are not in America today because of abortion, because one in three pregnancies end in abortion." Senator Rick Santorum
so according to this, instead of abortions, parents should be forced the duty and expense of raising a child even if they are not financially stable enough? Or should they give the kid up to the state and have that kid become a ward of the state instead?

no abortion = someone pays for it. just playing devil's advocate here. i'm not arguing any morality issue. please don't bring morals into this.
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      04-18-2011, 10:26 PM   #31
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VA disability payments are 100% exempt from taxation of any kind. There are many vets that have come back so screwed up that they will never again engage in gainful employment.... and will never pay taxes.

As a Naval Officer you should know that.

Also, many of the elderly living on nothing but SS pay no taxes either.

In my opinion these are two groups that have more right to vote than most.
So you think that a group of people who are "so screwed up that they will never again engage in gainful employment" have more right to vote than most? As well as elderly people who haven't participated in our economy for years and are easily manipulated?

I'm sorry, but I disagree. If a vet is so mentally "screwed up" that they can't be employed I don't think they need to be voting. And I also don't think that elderly people with their waining interest in anything other than bingo should be voting either. The elderly tend to be easily manipulated by politicians on all sides.

My sig may be a little misleading. I feel that you shouldn't be able to vote without filing a tax return. You may not have to pay any taxes, but unless you're part of the system (filing a return) you don't get a say in how it's ran.
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      04-19-2011, 09:22 AM   #32
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So you think that a group of people who are "so screwed up that they will never again engage in gainful employment" have more right to vote than most? As well as elderly people who haven't participated in our economy for years and are easily manipulated?

I'm sorry, but I disagree. If a vet is so mentally "screwed up" that they can't be employed I don't think they need to be voting. And I also don't think that elderly people with their waining interest in anything other than bingo should be voting either. The elderly tend to be easily manipulated by politicians on all sides.

My sig may be a little misleading. I feel that you shouldn't be able to vote without filing a tax return. You may not have to pay any taxes, but unless you're part of the system (filing a return) you don't get a say in how it's ran.
I'm sorry but I disagree. The folks that have served have earned the right to vote. You got it merely by being born here. Assuming you're old enough......

And the folks that are retired paid their dues, gave the world a lot of what it has today, are wiser, and are not easily manipulated. We also see past the the questions that politicians dodge. We never miss an election, and most of us have kids and grandkids with futures that we're concerned about so we are not disengaged. We also paid into the system for decades.

I don't play bingo and neither do any of my freinds. None of us gamble either.

I invite you to present your disabled Vet argument at my next DAV meeting.


Besides that your argument doesn't wash. Everybody pays taxes one way or another. Even if somebody doesn't pay taxes directly the money they spend supports jobs for people that do pay taxes.

I pay school taxes even though I don't have any kids in school. Does that count?

And it's "run" not "ran".
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      04-19-2011, 03:21 PM   #33
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And the folks that are retired paid their dues
If they're collecting social security, they're pulling more out than they put in- especially with the long life expectencies these days. The under-40 crowd is put in the position where we'll have to pay for their retirements AND for our own, and do it without the globally dominating economy the older generation had. Oh- and we'll have to pay down their national debt, too. Oh- and they didn't have as many kids as their parents, who had a ton of kids, so they're putting additional burden on everyone.

The younger generations are getting bent over, but know no other way so take it in the hopes that they can bend over the people that come after them. It's just not sustainable.

SS was never intended to be a retirement plan: it was intended to provide a subsistence level safety-net for those who were UNABLE to work, due to age or other problems, and then generally just for a couple of years until they shoved off.
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      04-19-2011, 05:25 PM   #34
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Just want to interject one point: A President in the US is not a dictator. Thus, a President has very limited powers and that power is further checked by Congress and the Supreme Court. Just because you have a "businessman" as President doesn't guarantee that anything will be done; political savvy is just as (if not more) important a characteristic if you want an effective President.
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      04-19-2011, 05:59 PM   #35
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If they're collecting social security, they're pulling more out than they put in- especially with the long life expectencies these days. The under-40 crowd is put in the position where we'll have to pay for their retirements AND for our own, and do it without the globally dominating economy the older generation had. Oh- and we'll have to pay down their national debt, too. Oh- and they didn't have as many kids as their parents, who had a ton of kids, so they're putting additional burden on everyone.

The younger generations are getting bent over, but know no other way so take it in the hopes that they can bend over the people that come after them. It's just not sustainable.

SS was never intended to be a retirement plan: it was intended to provide a subsistence level safety-net for those who were UNABLE to work, due to age or other problems, and then generally just for a couple of years until they shoved off.
I can't argue that. I was speaking more to taxes in general. I'm very healthy and expect to collect much more than I paid in FICA tax.

Kind of reminds me of my car insurance. I've been paying for decades, have never had an accident, or a claim, never expect to need it, yet I'm still paying $1,300.00+ a year for one car. And every year my premium increases outpace inflation. Why so much? Losses are shared amongst all the insured. So I'm paying for all the irresponsible drivers that get pissed because I'm not tailgating the guy ahead of me. In a perfect world the ones that cost all the money would bear all the expense and my increases would be limited to inflation. Life just ain't fair.
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      04-19-2011, 06:08 PM   #36
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If they're collecting social security, they're pulling more out than they put in- especially with the long life expectencies these days. The under-40 crowd is put in the position where we'll have to pay for their retirements AND for our own, and do it without the globally dominating economy the older generation had. Oh- and we'll have to pay down their national debt, too. Oh- and they didn't have as many kids as their parents, who had a ton of kids, so they're putting additional burden on everyone.

The younger generations are getting bent over, but know no other way so take it in the hopes that they can bend over the people that come after them. It's just not sustainable.

SS was never intended to be a retirement plan: it was intended to provide a subsistence level safety-net for those who were UNABLE to work, due to age or other problems, and then generally just for a couple of years until they shoved off.

Damn right! Let's kill all those old people so the noble younger generation (who have contributed sooooo much) can have it better. That will work just fine. Those old farts haven't done anything for anyone, all they are doing is using up valuable oxygen. And disabled vets--don't get me started--leeches, just sucking off the system. Under the bus with all of them! Compared to all previous generations, this particular "younger" cohort has it so very hard. Life is just not fair!
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      04-20-2011, 07:21 AM   #37
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Damn right! Let's kill all those old people so the noble younger generation (who have contributed sooooo much) can have it better. That will work just fine. Those old farts haven't done anything for anyone, all they are doing is using up valuable oxygen. And disabled vets--don't get me started--leeches, just sucking off the system. Under the bus with all of them! Compared to all previous generations, this particular "younger" cohort has it so very hard. Life is just not fair!
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      04-20-2011, 12:16 PM   #38
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How is preventing people from taking money from me so they can sit on ass tantamount to killing them?

I'd say it's the other way around. When you take the fruits of someones labor...their money...you're taking a portion of their life- the portion that they exchanged for that money.

People either need to invest such that they can retire early, or work until they can't work any more.
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      04-20-2011, 07:33 PM   #39
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lol yea ok
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      04-20-2011, 08:45 PM   #40
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I'm sorry but I disagree. The folks that have served have earned the right to vote. You got it merely by being born here. Assuming you're old enough......

And the folks that are retired paid their dues, gave the world a lot of what it has today, are wiser, and are not easily manipulated. We also see past the the questions that politicians dodge. We never miss an election, and most of us have kids and grandkids with futures that we're concerned about so we are not disengaged. We also paid into the system for decades.

I don't play bingo and neither do any of my freinds. None of us gamble either.

I invite you to present your disabled Vet argument at my next DAV meeting.


Besides that your argument doesn't wash. Everybody pays taxes one way or another. Even if somebody doesn't pay taxes directly the money they spend supports jobs for people that do pay taxes.

I pay school taxes even though I don't have any kids in school. Does that count?

And it's "run" not "ran".
You must be really old because i thought i was an old timer on this forum.

Serving this country is a noble thing and i for one truly appreciate each and everyone who has served; disabled or otherwise. However, if someone's mind is not sound enough to retain a job i think we should reconsider their voting status. My brother is 49 years old, born with CP, graduated public high school and currently has no right to vote. And i'm fine with that. Because if he were to vote his decision would only be based on what my parents told him. No parallels with VETs here, just an example.

Just like you assuming i'm very young and barely able to vote because thats the norm in this forum, other people may assume that elderly people are easily manipulated because the vast majority of them are. And when i say elderly i mean elderly, not recently retired.

Your last statement is what throws me the most. It's my experience that most people who don't pay taxes, don't have much money to spend. MOST of the time the money they do have to spend was given to them by the government, who have taken it from those of us who do pay. I can't speak for everyone but i can tell you with certainty that i don't have a single customer who is currently living off of the government. However i did just recently send a sizable check to the IRS which is now making me second guess my financial ability to hire the perspective employee i recently interviewed. Believe it or not, there is a LARGE number of people who don't contribute to our government, economy, or society in any way, they simply manipulate it with their vote and live off it. If half of them paid in just a little bit or were given less than they currently get it would drastically reduce the burden the tax payers carry.

Why should those who don't contribute decide how the country is RUN?
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      04-21-2011, 05:51 PM   #41
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Yeah, we don't need a businessman in office forever, I'm moderate as well but I know as well as anyone that Obama means well.....but you can;t spend trillions in a recession. Sure, the bulk of US citizens (and mexicans) like to see he's spending money one them and that might prompt them to spend more pocket money somewhat stimulating the economy...but the upper classes see him not "spending" money but "pissing money away."

35.8% of US citizens pay in come tax. That leaves 64% who don't.

Want my frank opinion? If you haven't paid taxes in the last 5 years you should have no say in who leads this government. Late taxes are ok, thanks to the system being THAT fkd up, but if you get exempted from funding the government then you shouldn't be able to ASK FOR FUNDS you don't help pay.

This is why I'm the #1 fan of flat tax. There is no way around it. Even drug dealers and pimps will have to pay taxes... And then the tax attorneys and CPAs would be out of business...boohoo. With a comprehensive flat tax every single fiscal issue will be solved in 5 years, max. We could afford a trillion dollar "free insurance for everyone" program and still have money left over for energy R&D and road/bridge/dam restoration (more "shovel ready" jobs).

But, the lower class feels that something on that scale would cripple their budgets. Why? Oh, that'ssssss right.... They don't pay taxes as it is so ANY tax big or small would "cripple" their budgets.

As a US Naval officer I feel sickened by the people I serve and protect, this should not have to be said. America is a disgrace, and needs economic reform and social dis-reform badly.
No offense, but I would like to see statistics that support the inference that "65% of Americans don't pay income tax." If that is true, then it certainly explains a great deal of this nation's issues
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      04-23-2011, 12:32 AM   #42
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I was probably his biggest supporter until I heard him in an interview saying he's for a single payer Health system and raising taxes on the rich. Now I dont know what his plans are.
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      04-23-2011, 12:36 PM   #43
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I was probably his biggest supporter until I heard him in an interview saying he's for a single payer Health system and raising taxes on the rich. Now I dont know what his plans are.
I'm guessing his plans are to marginally raise taxes on the rich? I mean...he kinda says it... I would trust the man.

What boggles my mind, is how hard of concept it is to grasp that taxes aren't YOUR money. The public services, such as the military, which every tax payer is supposed to pay ~3k annually for it, they have to be paid by someone. A lot of people in this country don't pay that much because they don't make anywhere near enough to live and pay that price. The successful businesses a lot of times are successful because those people don't pay the full burden; because if do leverage a higher tax on a $30k worker, they simply won't buy your shit.

This progressive tax system is fine. A majority gets paid dick, just enough to support themselves and possibly their spawn, things like shelter and eating. The more successful ones get to pay extra on the non-life sustaining income.

The argument that taxes affect businesses is largely overstated. Entrepreneurship is a very inelastic thing in relation to taxes. People will always want to make marginally more money than their neighbor. And if someone decides to move their business to China, I promise you that someone else will take their place, someone willing and able to contribute as much to the economy for 3% less of income, while responsibly enjoying the luxuries of the extended infrastructure this country provides.
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      04-23-2011, 03:34 PM   #44
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I support a flat tax of 25%. I'm paying 50% now while half the country isn't paying jack.
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