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      03-31-2011, 07:40 PM   #1
lenzm3edan
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M3 vs 06/07 Porsche carrera s

well I know that the 2008 Carrera S will beat an 08 M3, but what about the 06/07 Carrera S vs the M3 staight line.
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      03-31-2011, 08:30 PM   #2
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Same car. All the 997S .1 will beat the E92 M3. Therefore the .2 will too. PDK for the .2 increases the margin. As for terminal speed, I'd rather be in the Porsche for balance and stability. I believe the M3 is geared to go faster.

One thing about the 997S, it can be improved at relatively low cost via genuine Porsche parts. Headers (X51) are less than a $1000, and you can fit the massive 6-pot GT3 front brakes for well under $3000. You can also directly fit the GT3 aero kit including rear wing and many other things (i.e., large GT3 brake ducts to replace the smaller OEM ones) to make the car perform even better. It's simply a better platform to begin with. On the aftermarket side, cold air intakes and Y plenums make big hp differences too, as do high-flo exhaust systems.
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      03-31-2011, 08:56 PM   #3
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Doesn't the 06/07 Carrera S have 355hp and the 08 have around 380hp. is the 355hp Carrera S faster than a 414hp m3 at top speed? I'm not looking at 0-60 or quarter mile times only top end around 60-155mph.
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      03-31-2011, 10:25 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by lenzm3edan View Post
Doesn't the 06/07 Carrera S have 355hp and the 08 have around 380hp. is the 355hp Carrera S faster than a 414hp m3 at top speed? I'm not looking at 0-60 or quarter mile times only top end around 60-155mph.
Only if it came with the optional power kit (381 hp), which isn't the norm and was an expensive option (different exhaust and intake, camshafts, cylinder heads). Typically '08s are 355 hp and still quicker than the M3 around Nurburgring. Sport chrono is a must as it really wakes up the motor. Add a Y plenum ($900) and it's worth 28 peak hp and raises the curve across the rev range, especially at the upper end.

Porsche doesn't limit the top speed, but the gearing runs out in the upper 180s on the 997S.
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      03-31-2011, 11:46 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
In a straight line ONLY, the m3 vs the 355 hp 997.1S should be more in favor of the M3, but they are close enough where its a drivers race.
I agree. The Porsche has the advantage of traction off the line, lighter weight, and aerodynamics (stability) at speed. The M3 in overall power and rpms to stretch the legs in each gear.

The Porsche definitely has the advantage in gearbox (6MT vs. 6MT). No grinds at any rpm shift and smooth as hell. Night and day difference.
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      04-01-2011, 12:25 AM   #6
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I never understood why people would want to switch out the shifter in a 997 for a SSK, I thought mine was like a rifle bolt. So precise and smooth, especially after an E46 M3. I was disappointed that the 6MT shifter in the E9x wasn't that much better than the E46 M3.

My 997S had X51 headers, AWE 200cpi cats and an IPD plenum with a set of Borla cans...my M3 feels faster. If the 997.1S is quicker its only because of the traction advantage off the line. From a roll my E92 M3 feels like it would destroy my 997S.

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      04-01-2011, 07:57 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpari09 View Post
Those 2 guys will tell u a 996 is faster than an e92. I don't even know what they r doing on this forum, they can't accept the fact that an m3 is faster than any Porsche.
Who said anything about a 996? Ultimately if there weren't so many people on this forum saying such retarded things, people like me would stay away. You guys do a terrible job policing your own. There's much harmony on the Porsche forums (where I spend more time). Amazing amount of hate on this forum (mainly between E92 M3 owners). It's shameful.
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      04-01-2011, 09:19 AM   #8
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OP, you're confusing the model years of the 997.1 and 997.2.

997.1: 2005 - 2008
997.2: 2009 - 2011

the 997.1 is a great match for the M3 in all performance categories, whereas the 997.2 beats it everywhere.

with respect to top-end speed, if you take the limiter off the M3, it will be very close. both cars will exceed a true 180+ mph. I will say though, that the M3 feels much more stable at high speeds than the 997. the twitchiness of the 997 due to its light steering feel, light front end and short wheelbase don't inspire the confidence that the M3 does at high speeds.

for the record, I've owned both. a 2008 997 (6MT) and now a DCT M3.
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      04-01-2011, 12:47 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by kpari09 View Post
Those 2 guys will tell u a 996 is faster than an e92. I don't even know what they r doing on this forum, they can't accept the fact that an m3 is faster than any Porsche.
The E9X is not faster than any Porsche...in fact saying such a thing borders on "trollness".


I love my E92 M3, more than I liked my 997S. However, the reasons for this have nothing to do with the performance of the 997S. It was more of a life style issue and the fact I couldn't afford to have a DD and a weekend driver. I cringed everytime I had to park my 997S in a jacked up neighborhood to do a walk through (I do real estate) or the times I had to rent a car to pick up clients to show property. That got old quickly...

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      04-01-2011, 01:11 PM   #10
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Dave, he was saying those two guys won't admit that an e92 M3 is faster than any Porsche. Not that the M3 IS faster than any Porsche made/all Porsches. Hard to read through text I suppose.
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      04-01-2011, 02:01 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by AudiS5 View Post
Dave, he was saying those two guys won't admit that an e92 M3 is faster than any Porsche. Not that the M3 IS faster than any Porsche made/all Porsches. Hard to read through text I suppose.

Oh, my bad..reading comprehension is a tad off today..

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      04-01-2011, 05:28 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpari09 View Post
Yes granted a 2011 carrera s that costs 105k is faster than a 2011 75k m3. No disagreement there. Carrera is a great car, like I've mentioned in previous threads. Both cars have their virtues, both cars are great in their own ways. I plan on getting a 998 especially if they move the engine further forward.
Not getting into this argument, but will point out that the video is from May 2009, so best case they are '09's racing where the S spanks the M3.

Second, the next gen 911 is reported to be the 991 not a 998.
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      04-01-2011, 06:03 PM   #13
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I'm a huge fan of 911's and Porsche in general. never understood why they were so highly respected until the first time I rode in one, and I've been in love with them ever since. they can be used and abused day in and day out and will still last 200k+ miles easily. they're also great in the winter with the rear engine rear drive layout. however, I can't get past the fact that the M3 is nipping at the heels of the 911 in performance. not so much because the M3 costs a lot less, but because the M3 has a much more spacious interior and trunk.

no question about it, the M3 is a FAR better value. but that's not to say there's no reason for anyone to get a 911 - in fact, I'd say quite the opposite. the 911 has far more curb appeal due to its long, rich history and racing pedigree and the driving experience in a 911 is irreplaceable. you have to respect the stubborn Porsche engineers for spending 40+ years refining the 911. whereas most cars have a revolution with each subsequent model (i.e. look at the M3 - went from an I4 to an I6 to a bigger I6 to a V8), the 911 has had a continous evolution and just keeps getting better.
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      04-01-2011, 09:04 PM   #14
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Shift respect your opinions but remember they r just opinions. I never said pdk feels just like an auto I said it feels more like an auto than dct. I have had a lot if seat time in both pdk equipped and manual 997s and standard 997 cars. Although i admire the light agile feel of the car, the sound of the engine and the price tag does not justify the purchase IMO an is not a world of a difference in performance compared to my e92. And although I like the way the 997 drives in certain respects I like the way the m3 drives in others. I was so close to pulling the trigger on a 2011 white carrera s with pdk had put a 5k deposit on it but backed out last minute given the extra costs associated with owning a Porsche. I don't mind the extra cost as long as the performance difference justifies the premium which in my eyes does not with the current model 997. Taking my m3 through the same canyon I took the 997 and feeling utter confidence and stability and the beautiful sound of the v8 closed the deal. Maybe with the next generation carrera,they will fix some of the handling flaws, by moving the engine more towards the middle like the cayman. Just like u said in a previous post, the m3 will no longer be NA, which means this will be my last m3. My next move will be Porsche and I will look forward to hearing more about the new generation 911. Let's hope it will be somethig truly special.
You could say the exact same thing about the Boss 302 compared to the M3 if you're going to justify it like this versus the 911.

Why is this always the talking point when moving up-market, but get's derided when discussing cars that might be considered down-market?
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      04-02-2011, 12:54 AM   #15
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Because at the end of the day, no matter how much power ford crams into the motor, it's still a ford and it still feels cheap and primitive.
Considering most of your points in this thread have had some basis in fact, this is by far the lamest argument you have provided to this point.

What does "power into the motor" have to do with anything?

Bottom line it is as fast (Boss 302) or faster (Boss 302 Laguna Seca) than any of the luxury super sedans and only costs a fraction of the others. The interior of the M3 is nothing to write home about and to call the 302 "cheap" in comparison is laughable. If that's your rational the interior of the M3 is flat out embarassing compared to a 911.

I assume by "primitive" you mean faster in every way.

You can't have it both ways. The 911 isn't worth the premium over the M3 for it's marginal performance gains, but somehow the M3 is worth the huge premium over the Boss 302 Lagune Seca even though it outperforms it. Completely lame and baseless argument.
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      04-02-2011, 01:45 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
I never understood why people would want to switch out the shifter in a 997 for a SSK, I thought mine was like a rifle bolt. So precise and smooth, especially after an E46 M3. I was disappointed that the 6MT shifter in the E9x wasn't that much better than the E46 M3.

My 997S had X51 headers, AWE 200cpi cats and an IPD plenum with a set of Borla cans...my M3 feels faster. If the 997.1S is quicker its only because of the traction advantage off the line. From a roll my E92 M3 feels like it would destroy my 997S.

Dave
E92 M3 is definately faster than 997.1 Carrera S. I owned both; and recently I raced with my friends's 997.1 Carrera S w/tipt. (tipt. is slower than 6MT) and I destroyed him, no chance and that was before my Akrapovic EVO.

Especially if the M3 is equipped w/DKG, 997.1 has no chance.
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      04-02-2011, 01:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpari09 View Post
Shift respect your opinions but remember they r just opinions. I never said pdk feels just like an auto I said it feels more like an auto than dct. I have had a lot if seat time in both pdk equipped and manual 997s and standard 997 cars. Although i admire the light agile feel of the car, the sound of the engine and the price tag does not justify the purchase IMO an is not a world of a difference in performance compared to my e92. And although I like the way the 997 drives in certain respects I like the way the m3 drives in others. I was so close to pulling the trigger on a 2011 white carrera s with pdk had put a 5k deposit on it but backed out last minute given the extra costs associated with owning a Porsche. I don't mind the extra cost as long as the performance difference justifies te premium which in my eyes does not with the current model 997. Taking my m3 through the same canyon I took the 997 and feeling utter confidence and stability and the beautiful sound of the v8 closed the deal. Maybe with the next generation carrera,they will fix some of the handling flaws, by moving the engine more towards the middle like the cayman. Just like u said in a previous post, the m3 will no longer be NA, which means this will be my last m3. My next move will be Porsche and I will look forward to hearing more about the new generation 911. Let's hope it will be somethig truly special.
+1
Been there, done that.
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      04-02-2011, 03:28 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpari09 View Post
Shift respect your opinions but remember they r just opinions. I never said pdk feels just like an auto I said it feels more like an auto than dct. I have had a lot if seat time in both pdk equipped and manual 997s and standard 997 cars. Although i admire the light agile feel of the car, the sound of the engine and the price tag does not justify the purchase IMO an is not a world of a difference in performance compared to my e92. And although I like the way the 997 drives in certain respects I like the way the m3 drives in others. I was so close to pulling the trigger on a 2011 white carrera s with pdk had put a 5k deposit on it but backed out last minute given the extra costs associated with owning a Porsche. I don't mind the extra cost as long as the performance difference justifies te premium which in my eyes does not with the current model 997. Taking my m3 through the same canyon I took the 997 and feeling utter confidence and stability and the beautiful sound of the v8 closed the deal. Maybe with the next generation carrera,they will fix some of the handling flaws, by moving the engine more towards the middle like the cayman. Just like u said in a previous post, the m3 will no longer be NA, which means this will be my last m3. My next move will be Porsche and I will look forward to hearing more about the new generation 911. Let's hope it will be somethig truly special.
You're missing the point of Porsche. It's designed to be great at what it is and what it does. The 911 is an evolution as we all know. It's dimensions haven't radically changed, nor its basic shape in 45 some odd years. They want the motor where it is. It's not a flaw. It's not something they've elected to change. The car has been made in the same buildings now as when the first one rolled off assembly. All flat 6ixes so they're low in the frame for high speed stability. Where you might make a decision to buy the M3 as you think it's a better performance bargain, Porsche could care less what others are doing. You either get that, or you don't. But yes the current is a step forward in performance from your M3 whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. Until you've been north of 170 in these you can't appreciate the differences. Sure the Porsche is a lot more expensive. It's because their customers will pay it, and they don't compromise and leave off things like cooling ducts for the brakes (of course my M3 has those). If all you want is performance for the dollar, you could have spent less and gotten more. Nothing wrong with a M3. It's as great of a performance version of their standard 3 series now as much as ever. But it's never going to replace what Porsche has achieved with the 911 regardless of performance specs. Keep in mind how BMW sacrificed fuel economy for the M3 to perform the way it does. In consideration to many of their compromises, it's not nearly as impressive. Ultimately I can't understand how anyone shopping for a new 997S with PDK would settle for a M3.
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      04-02-2011, 03:36 AM   #19
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Quote:
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E92 M3 is definately faster than 997.1 Carrera S. I owned both; and recently I raced with my friends's 997.1 Carrera S w/tipt. (tipt. is slower than 6MT) and I destroyed him, no chance and that was before my Akrapovic EVO.

Especially if the M3 is equipped w/DKG, 997.1 has no chance.
Not based on official Nurburgring times, which are a little more credible than your seat of the pants beliefs. There's a lot more to "what wins" than roll on acceleration. Dollar for dollar, it's much easier to get more power out of the Porsche as well. Even my 997S can topple 400 hp for a few grand with no real affect on reliability or economy.
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      04-02-2011, 05:14 PM   #20
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You're missing the point of Porsche. It's designed to be great at what it is and what it does. The 911 is an evolution as we all know. It's dimensions haven't radically changed, nor its basic shape in 45 some odd years. They want the motor where it is. It's not a flaw. It's not something they've elected to change. The car has been made in the same buildings now as when the first one rolled off assembly. All flat 6ixes so they're low in the frame for high speed stability. Where you might make a decision to buy the M3 as you think it's a better performance bargain, Porsche could care less what others are doing. You either get that, or you don't. But yes the current is a step forward in performance from your M3 whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. Until you've been north of 170 in these you can't appreciate the differences. Sure the Porsche is a lot more expensive. It's because their customers will pay it, and they don't compromise and leave off things like cooling ducts for the brakes (of course my M3 has those). If all you want is performance for the dollar, you could have spent less and gotten more. Nothing wrong with a M3. It's as great of a performance version of their standard 3 series now as much as ever. But it's never going to replace what Porsche has achieved with the 911 regardless of performance specs. Keep in mind how BMW sacrificed fuel economy for the M3 to perform the way it does. In consideration to many of their compromises, it's not nearly as impressive. Ultimately I can't understand how anyone shopping for a new 997S with PDK would settle for a M3.
you need to lay off the kool-aid. first, there's no excuse for Porsche not providing a limited slip diff as standard on the Carrera (I know it's standard on the C4's, GT3, etc., but there's no excuse for not having that standard on the whole product line as long as they're all sports cars).

second, what you refer to as "compromises" that BMW made in creating the M3 are in fact just the opposite. BMW didn't aim to build a 2-person sports car, so they needed a larger engine to achieve the performance they were looking for. sure, the M3 doesn't get the gas mileage that the C2S does, but it is a far more special engine in my opinion (in terms of throttle response, power delivery, sound, etc.).

not to mention, the 50/50 weight distribution makes the M3 a pure joy to drive for drivers of all talents. I owned a 997 and I appreciate the nuances of driving a rear-engine car, but if you ask me, it's not a "plus" for a car to harshly punish driver mistakes the way the 997 does. I find it more impressive that the M3 can be driven to such great limits yet be so forgiving.

not saying the M3 is a better car than the 911 Carrera(S); just don't understand why you feel the need to vehemently defend Porsche in this instance since you don't own an e9X M3.
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      04-02-2011, 05:59 PM   #21
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I've owned a 997S, Cayman S, and 996 GT3. Porsche makes some great cars, and I enjoyed them all. For 90% of owners, a well set up M3 will be driven faster on most tracks than most 911 platform cars. Once learned, the GT3 is a marvelous car, a ball on track, but very compromised as a DD or frequently driven street car. The 997S is more communicative in braking and suspension than the M3, but not by a large margin. Again, after learning to drive it, the 997S will be a bit faster on most tracks, but also more challenging to drive well, which may be a plus for the enthusiast. Overall, a great sports car and a great sports sedan, but not sure if they should be compared directly. For less money, a well driven ZO6 will embarrass both of them, so there you go. Buy what you enjoy driving.
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      04-02-2011, 08:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
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you need to lay off the kool-aid. first, there's no excuse for Porsche not providing a limited slip diff as standard on the Carrera (I know it's standard on the C4's, GT3, etc., but there's no excuse for not having that standard on the whole product line as long as they're all sports cars).

second, what you refer to as "compromises" that BMW made in creating the M3 are in fact just the opposite. BMW didn't aim to build a 2-person sports car, so they needed a larger engine to achieve the performance they were looking for. sure, the M3 doesn't get the gas mileage that the C2S does, but it is a far more special engine in my opinion (in terms of throttle response, power delivery, sound, etc.).

not to mention, the 50/50 weight distribution makes the M3 a pure joy to drive for drivers of all talents. I owned a 997 and I appreciate the nuances of driving a rear-engine car, but if you ask me, it's not a "plus" for a car to harshly punish driver mistakes the way the 997 does. I find it more impressive that the M3 can be driven to such great limits yet be so forgiving.

not saying the M3 is a better car than the 911 Carrera(S); just don't understand why you feel the need to vehemently defend Porsche in this instance since you don't own an e9X M3.
Because of the rear weight bias/traction a C2/4(S) does very well without a LSD. Yes it will perform better with one but will not suffer as much as a M3 would without one. The .2 997(S)'s have the option, the .1's did not. No, a LSD is not standard on a C4(S).
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