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      03-28-2011, 09:01 PM   #177
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Soooo looks like it's a dinan tune scheduled next Tuesday for the M6 and the M3 lol
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      03-28-2011, 10:13 PM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal@Evolve View Post
Jeremy,

the subject of tractive effort is irrelevant and that can also be manipulated unfortunately.

Leaving the weather station on doesn't mean you cannot manipulate results. There is still the gear used in question, the inlet temperature probe reading and then how hard the car is strapped down. You know that allowing the car to climb the roller makes MUCH more power than when it's strapped down really hard.

I can demonstrate all of the above if you want me to..... in detail.

The point is that you can display both wheel and flywheel if you want along with all of he correction factors and this is usually enough to verify results.

If an operator wants to cheat they can and you know this as a dyno operator.

We as professionals do not allow results to be released from our dyno that compare our tune with our competition.
We recently had a quite a few M3's in which we tuned and they were all previously tuned by a another company.

We either returned the cars back to stock first for a baseline or we did not release the baseline of the car with the competitions' tune.... not even to the customer.

If you follow the same rules then this type of scenario will never arise.
Sal, sorry to overlook your original request. I had meant to post IATs in original post. My request for tractive effort is to show those who are not familiar with dyno variables from other brands. eg, Apples vs. apples. Dynapak (a hub dyno, Preference of Dinan), DynoJet (most popular in USA), Maha (most common in Europe), Dyno Dynamics , Mainline, Dynomite, etc.
I have always encouraged customers to do testing independently, at your shop, my shop, VBOX, 1/4 mile, whatever. Come to your own conclusions. A dyno is a tool that gives a before vs. after comparison. No dyno is perfect, nor the operators. High speed on the street is impractical. If you know better methods than I mentioned, then I would love the opportunity to try.

Jeremy

We try to make the very best quality products for the BMW community. Keeping our customers' happy is our number 1 goal. Sorry to the owner of the M3 who only wanted to share in his excitment for new found power.
(Thanks Sal for the great advice. Shootout mode from now on.)
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      03-28-2011, 11:27 PM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyoshi71 View Post
Unfortunately/fortunately, public opinion is not a court of law and the standard of proof is much less (rightfully so). If speculation builds concerning a company and how they might have tinkered with dyno results in order to boost supposed gains...I ain't buying; and I'm sure many others aren't either.

Folks keep stating that this thread is not about whether OE/Gintani are bad companies and only about dyno results...Not true.

If OE/Gintani manipulated the dyno in order to create fictitious gains, they ARE bad companies
.
Kyoshi, I understand what you're saying but I still feel that we're jumping the gun a little bit. This thread IS about OE/Gintani dyno results and whether they were manipulated or not. What you and a few others in this thread are saying is that if it's proven that OE/Gintani DID manipulate the results then that = bad company and I agree 100% . But, the OP pretty much said, "Hey check this out...Am I trippin or were these results manipulated? Here's my proof..." **NOTE(not quoting the OP, just summarizing)
Maybe we should save the 'OE/Gintani for manipulating dynos' on a new thread. Or, maybe I'm taking what the OP said too much at face value and he really is saying that OE/Gintani are cheaters and no good but just being 'Politically Correct' at the same time. I dunno...just my .02
BTW, is OE/Gintani gonna respond to the challenge/accusations yet or what??
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      03-29-2011, 05:42 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pumper206 View Post
Kyoshi, I understand what you're saying but I still feel that we're jumping the gun a little bit. This thread IS about OE/Gintani dyno results and whether they were manipulated or not. What you and a few others in this thread are saying is that if it's proven that OE/Gintani DID manipulate the results then that = bad company and I agree 100% . But, the OP pretty much said, "Hey check this out...Am I trippin or were these results manipulated? Here's my proof..." **NOTE(not quoting the OP, just summarizing)
Maybe we should save the 'OE/Gintani for manipulating dynos' on a new thread. Or, maybe I'm taking what the OP said too much at face value and he really is saying that OE/Gintani are cheaters and no good but just being 'Politically Correct' at the same time. I dunno...just my .02
BTW, is OE/Gintani gonna respond to the challenge/accusations yet or what??
Although I see all the points you're making, I think your last one is incredibly valid where you cite Political Correctness.
If the OP has a lot of keyboard time in with various forums, then he knows that a post which bring into question the integrity of a sponsor doesn't usually stick around for long. Thankfully not here.
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      03-29-2011, 06:53 AM   #181
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Sorry guys (the stats guys) I am really missing the point (and I have a degree in Math and have studied statistics as well). Or perhaps everyone just is not on the same page.

Is the "problem" the uniformity of the gains across the entire rpm range, the peak gained value or the average value gained? The way I understood it was that the uniformity of the gains across the rpm range indicate some sort of cheat or constant scaling factor. I certainly agree with that observation - one data set sticks out like a sore thumb. If the variable being condensed to a single value for the distribution plots is simply the average % power gained that is a totally separate issue from the gain vs rpm curves linearities. Also, somewhat nit picky, but the values in the y axis should be 100 times larger if the title of the chart is "Percentage...".

In my view the linearity is the clue to a cheat and then the average value of the curve also becomes suspect. Would a very linear curve of gain vs. rpm but at a constant (low) say 4% gain be a red flag? I don't think it would be. It is the combination of high linearity and high average gain that is the "double whammy".

Really you might want to make 2 sets of plots. 1 that is simply average % gained across all rpms vs. vendor. The other would be some measure of the linearity of each curve. The most simple metric would max-min. You could also use the "RMS" value (square root of the sum of the squared deviations of each rpm point - (Sum((value-mean value)^2))^1/2 ).
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      03-29-2011, 07:10 AM   #182
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When things go bad at Gintani, OE says they are independent. When things go bad at OE Tuning, Gintani says they are independent. The post from Jeremy at Gintani says the true story. But it's also a forum violation to post under another person's screen name and will get you immediately banned. Why isn't this account now banned?
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      03-29-2011, 08:10 AM   #183
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Hey off topic, but it seems that everyone is focused on this thread so I wanted to know if they do anything with the ECU for the 1200 mile break-in service and if it'll over-write an existing tune....

my SA told me that launch control is disable during break-in (i've heard conflicting things from some of you on here) so this is why I assumed they might do something to the computer...
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      03-29-2011, 09:14 AM   #184
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You just really hate OE/Gintani huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
When things go bad at Gintani, OE says they are independent. When things go bad at OE Tuning, Gintani says they are independent. The post from Jeremy at Gintani says the true story. But it's also a forum violation to post under another person's screen name and will get you immediately banned. Why isn't this account now banned?
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      03-29-2011, 12:54 PM   #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Is the "problem" the uniformity of the gains across the entire rpm range, the peak gained value or the average value gained?
Whichever raises your red flag most I suppose. For me the uniformity of the gains across the rpm range caught my eye as something unusual enough to quantify.

Quote:
If the variable being condensed to a single value for the distribution plots is simply the average % power gained that is a totally separate issue from the gain vs rpm curves linearities.
Perhaps you could use average power gained, but what I looked at was the acceptable range of deviation in percent power gained across the rpm range.

Quote:
Also, somewhat nit picky, but the values in the y axis should be 100 times larger if the title of the chart is "Percentage...".
Haha, good catch and absolutely true. I formatted those spreadsheet cells to display in percentage but apparently visual/display formating does not transfer to graphs.


Quote:
In my view the linearity is the clue to a cheat and then the average value of the curve also becomes suspect. Would a very linear curve of gain vs. rpm but at a constant (low) say 4% gain be a red flag? I don't think it would be. It is the combination of high linearity and high average gain that is the "double whammy".
I think it is and those normal distribution graphs are representative of this. OE's gain at Gintani's is only ~4.6% over stock which by itself doesn't raise any flags.

The remarkable linearity (as you aptly put it) of the raw gains are:

OE @ Gintani:
4000 9
4500 10
5000 11
5500 12
6000 13
6500 14
7000 15
7500 16
8000 16


ESS:
4000 6
4500 6
5000 7.5
5500 13
6000 12
6500 16
7000 17
7500 15.5
8000 17.5


AA:
4000 13
4500 13
5000 14
5500 20
6000 27
6500 31
7000 23
7500 26
8000 29


GIAC:
4000 7
4500 9
5000 13
5500 11
6000 17
6500 16
7000 21
7500 21
8000 25



Quote:
Really you might want to make 2 sets of plots. 1 that is simply average % gained across all rpms vs. vendor. The other would be some measure of the linearity of each curve. The most simple metric would max-min. You could also use the "RMS" value (square root of the sum of the squared deviations of each rpm point - (Sum((value-mean value)^2))^1/2 ).
What I've done is very similar to RMS, but you're right it would be interesting to see the average % gained at each rpm point. I'll try and work on it tonight...
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      03-29-2011, 01:00 PM   #186
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If you really paid any attention to a statistics class you would know that the sample size you are working with is far to small to actually justify any results you come up with.

In reality all of this like I said before is pretty simple to solve if Gintani or someone with their tune would just go to a 3rd party dyno and get a new dyno.
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      03-29-2011, 02:06 PM   #187
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Why so angry? No need to go on the attack. It only pushes the thread off topic.
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      03-29-2011, 02:30 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
When things go bad at Gintani, OE says they are independent. When things go bad at OE Tuning, Gintani says they are independent. The post from Jeremy at Gintani says the true story. But it's also a forum violation to post under another person's screen name and will get you immediately banned. Why isn't this account now banned?
Paying sponsors seldom get banned...
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      03-29-2011, 02:39 PM   #189
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Sick and tired of this

Alright I am really getting sick of how this forum/forum members (mainly a few) are doing their best to bring down our company. I believe that we have shown enough evidence that we do not alter our dyno. Are you guys afraid of a little competition? Is that it? A company has finally came about that actually has or has the potential to have better products than other/your company?? Is that what this is all about? Ever since we came out with our exhaust system, all these speculations came about that we do not actually make the power that we say we do. But as many of you can recall, we actually do make great power with our exhaust systems and yes people dyno their cars on other DYNO's which proves the gains. Then, when the S/C kit came about.. all hell broke lose. We actually have a great kit and many people wont give the chance for other people to find that out. I don't know if many of you recall but it is/was the same usual 5-6 people that claim we lie. Hmmmm I wonder why?


Lets start with.. M33.. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain to me what we have done to you. We haven't done a single business transaction with each other, so why hate man? You have a competitors kit on your car, cool man congrats to you. We are really glad you like it, but why hate on ours? Do you know how long it takes and how many hours of R/D we have put in to actually have a product like a S/C?? DO you? I don't think so. While you sleep at night, we are working on making our products better and better. Also when have we EVER said that we are independent from OE Tuning and vise versa.. WHEN? Look at our website, it says that OE TUNING is our sister company. When has OE blown a MBZ motor, come on man stop acting like a child.

I can honestly go on for hours, pages, whatever it is.. but I will just stop here. It is REALLY easy to talk big behind a computer screen. Really easy. As for everyone saying that we are not accepting this challenge, well let me tell you guys something. We have accepted and offered many challanges before, but for some reason it is always another company (not going to name them) that is a no show.. Why is that?? Afraid? and please don't give me any of that bias dyno bs, because we are not the ones who pick the place and time.

I am really frustrated with all of this. ONLY because almost everything people hear/read about is FALSE. Yes there was an issue with lawsuits before, but you guys don't know 3/4 of it. We have explained how that mess happened and who's fault it really was, but of course no one believes what we say. Should we just not answer or not say anything anymore? From the looks of it, there is no point because many people just ignore what we say or what we do.

As you can tell I am very frustrated with all this, and I honestly do not care what many people will think after reading my post. Do you guys know how much R/D, hours, sweat, blood, it takes to come out with products for automobiles? Some do, some might know the pain.. but for others its just a fun game to play online.

For anyone who has questions please give us a call and talk to us in person, email me or shoot me a PM.

Thanks,
Raz

Last edited by Raz@Gintani; 03-29-2011 at 10:45 PM.
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      03-29-2011, 02:44 PM   #190
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That was convincing. If other people have dynod their OE tuning or Gintani products on other dynos other than Gintani, then why don't they speak up and confirm whether results were worse, the same or better? This seems like it shouldn't be this big of an issue. Most of what is said is speculation, and I'm sorry, but while these distribution graphs are a cool use of Excel and some statistics, they really prove absolutely nothing.
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      03-29-2011, 02:45 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by powertrip View Post
I have had my car tested independently twice and it made the so called "manipulated" gains over my old PC tune both times. Just putting it out there.
See, here is what I was talking about. An example of a result that verifies the claims. We need more of that.
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      03-29-2011, 02:46 PM   #192
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Raz,

Nothing against you or your company. But you have not posted any evidence, that is the issue. There has yet to be one attempt at explaining why your gains are so linear across the entire graph. No one is trying to bring your company down. They have been questioning a very suspicious dyno graph from your company, that is all. Everyone has been asking for an explanation of it. Simple. If it's legit then there's no doubt you have the best tune. Please explain it for us.
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      03-29-2011, 02:48 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
Raz,

Nothing against you or your company. But you have not posted any evidence, that is the issue. There has yet to be one attempt at explaining why your gains are so linear across the entire graph. No one is trying to bring your company down. They have been questioning a very suspicious dyno graph from your company, that is all. Everyone has been asking for an explanation of it. Simple. If it's legit then there's no doubt you have the best tune. Please explain it for us.
Yes, that would end this thread. Its 9 pages? Ridiculous, should have been stopped at page 2 with an answer.
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      03-29-2011, 02:50 PM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
Raz,

Nothing against you or your company. But you have not posted any evidence, that is the issue. There has yet to be one attempt at explaining why your gains are so linear across the entire graph. No one is trying to bring your company down. They have been questioning a very suspicious dyno graph from your company, that is all. Everyone has been asking for an explanation of it. Simple. If it's legit then there's no doubt you have the best tune. Please explain it for us.
Exactly!!
Raz claims that he is tired of this bashing on his company, well maybe we members of the forum in which you advertise your product, stop giving us the run-around and just own up to the truth and come clean?

talk about tired of this and that, how much drama has your company gone through on pretty much every single BMW forum? Worth all the trouble?
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      03-29-2011, 03:01 PM   #195
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Hey guys, I am not by my computer (iPhone) once I am back on my laptop I will answer your questions/fix my grammar
Mistakes ..
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      03-29-2011, 04:23 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
Raz,

Nothing against you or your company. But you have not posted any evidence, that is the issue. There has yet to be one attempt at explaining why your gains are so linear across the entire graph. No one is trying to bring your company down. They have been questioning a very suspicious dyno graph from your company, that is all. Everyone has been asking for an explanation of it. Simple. If it's legit then there's no doubt you have the best tune. Please explain it for us.
Did you read Jeremy's post? He did say something about from now on he will be putting the dyno is shootout mode which will have all factors available. You can't compare apples to oranges. Dynodynamics operates differently then a dynojet, DP.. etc (which has been stated in this thread, just want to repeat it) No one is trying to bring our company down? I'm sorry maybe you have missed a couple of posts in this thread, Please read them. Just by this thread you can tell the amount of potential costumers we've have lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PINHEAD View Post
Exactly!!
Raz claims that he is tired of this bashing on his company, well maybe we members of the forum in which you advertise your product, stop giving us the run-around and just own up to the truth and come clean?

talk about tired of this and that, how much drama has your company gone through on pretty much every single BMW forum? Worth all the trouble?
Run-around and just own up to the truth and come clean? How's this for truth, we make products that make power. Well if we truly didn't believe in our products and our business then why would we still be on the forums trying to promote our company and still try to improve and also come out with new products? Why waste our time, money and lives? We have gone through alot of drama, alot of unnecessary drama. In which, most of it was started by people who hate us and have a vendetta to bring us down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jmflukeiii View Post
That was convincing. If other people have dynod their OE tuning or Gintani products on other dynos other than Gintani, then why don't they speak up and confirm whether results were worse, the same or better? This seems like it shouldn't be this big of an issue. Most of what is said is speculation, and I'm sorry, but while these distribution graphs are a cool use of Excel and some statistics, they really prove absolutely nothing.
Good question, many people who have dyno-ed their cars on an independent dyno either have already posted their dyno-sheet on another thread or their dyno sheet is in the Dyno DB that PG has created. Not sure why they don't post on this thread? Ill give an example. When we first came out with our FULL Gintani catless Exhaust system. Obviously some thought we were bogus with our numbers. Then someone on this forum, I don't want to put in his username but I guess I kind of have to, Nawazz, believed in us and gave us a try. He bought the system, put his car on the dyno and you know what happened? He actually gained great amounts of power. BTW he does not live in California, so he did not use our dyno nor were we even by his car when it was on the dyno. Hmmm, I guess we didn't lie over there.


What really matters is how your car produces on the street (track). If you do not agree with this statement then you probably are afraid to drive your car at its full potential. Sorry but truth hurts.


Bottom line is, many people do not give us a chance. I do not know why and I am starting to not care. If you want to be gullible and listen to rumors please go ahead. We will still do what we do and we hope some of you will open your eyes and realize that we are a legit company and that we actually care about our costumers and the community.

Last edited by Raz@Gintani; 03-29-2011 at 10:46 PM.
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      03-29-2011, 04:36 PM   #197
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz@Gintani View Post
Bottom line is, many people do not give us a chance. I do not know why and I am starting to not care. If you want to be gullible and listen to rumors please go ahead. We will still do what we do and we hope some of you will open your eyes and realize that we are a legit company and that we actually care about our costumers and the community.
So will you be putting your tune up against the PC tune for scrutiny on an independent dyno as already suggested?
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      03-29-2011, 05:18 PM   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raz@Gintani View Post
Alright I am really getting sick of how this forum/forum members (mainly a few) are doing their best to bring down our company. I believe that we have shown enough evidence that we do not alter our dyno. Are you guys afraid of a little competition? Is that it? A company has finally came about that actually has or has the potential to have better products than other/your company?? Is that what this is all about? Ever since we came out with our exhaust system, all these speculations came about that we do not actually make the power that we say we do. But as many of you can recall, we actually do make great power with our exhaust systems and yes people dyno their cars on other DYNO's which proves the gains. Then, when the S/C kit came about.. all hell broke lose. We actually have a great kit and many people wont give the chance for other people to find that out. I don't know if many of you recall but it is/was the same usual 5-6 people that claim we lie. Hmmmm I wonder why?

Lets start with PG (pencilgeek for those who do not know of him). I know you are reading this right now, and will probably not post anything.. but hear me out for a second. What did we do to you? What exactly have we done to you? Jeremy, at the time, couldn't tune your car and because of that you hate him? You and Alex didn't agree on something so you hate him? I mean come on. Having trouble with your car still? Give us a call when you need help buddy.

Another person.. M33.. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE explain to me what we have done to you. Absolutely Nothing We haven't done a single business transaction with each other, so why hate man? I don't hate and has nothing to do with hating , Me pointing out BS is hating ? : example: A Video of a forum members newly super charged M having is SES light disabled during start up .... You have a competitors kit on your car, cool man congrats to you. We are really glad you like it, but why hate on ours? Do you know how long it takes and how many hours of R/D we have put in to actually have a product like a S/C?? DO you? I don't think so. While you sleep at night, we are working on making our products better and better. Also when have we EVER said that we are independent from OE Tuning and vise versa.. WHEN? Look at our website, it says that OE TUNING is our sister company.Sorry i thought it was two different company's When has OE blown a MBZ motor, come on man stop acting like a child.

I can honestly go on for hours, pages, whatever it is..about M33, PG and the others that I will not mention but I will just stop here. It is REALLY easy to talk big behind a computer screenDude Please......... I dont talk big i state Facts theirs a difference.... Really easy. As for everyone saying that we are not accepting this challenge, well let me tell you guys something. We have accepted and offered many challanges before, but for some reason it is always another company (not going to name them) that is a no show.. Why is that?? Afraid? and please don't give me any of that bias dyno bs, because we are not the ones who pick the place and time.

I am really frustrated with all of this. ONLY because almost everything people hear/read about is FALSE. Yes there was an issue with lawsuits before, but you guys don't know 3/4 of it. We have explained how that mess happened and who's fault it really was, but of course no one believes what we say. Should we just not answer or not say anything anymore? From the looks of it, there is no point because many people just ignore what we say or what we do.

As you can tell I am very frustrated with all this, and I honestly do not care what many people will think after reading my post. Do you guys know how much R/D, hours, sweat, blood, it takes to come out with products for automobiles? Some do, some might know the pain.. but for others its just a fun game to play online.

For anyone who has questions please give us a call and talk to us in person, email me or shoot me a PM.

Thanks,
Raz
If makes a difference i do respect the fact that you guys are taking care of Drew with his Motor that does show good company Ethics
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