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      03-28-2011, 12:20 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 808MGuy View Post
What does the supercharger kit have to do with this thread? That will only add another variable to the argument and cloud the issue even more.
Well you guys are complaining stating that Gintani makes fake dyno claims...so the pretty easy way to shut up that arguement is to prove those specific gains on any of their cars or modifications on another dyno.

Also again the arguement that Gintani is a bad company because of a dyno is just ridiculous. I still have yet to see one thread pop up from you guys going after any intake manufacterer...or exhaust manufacterer for that matter. We all know gains from exhaust and intakes are minimal at best.

Edit: Just looking back at the first page...I am sure we could just get the same car out here to with the same modifications from that dyno run. I just think the most simple way to solve this arguement is prove the numbers in that dyno.

Last edited by Aries932; 03-28-2011 at 12:26 PM.
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      03-28-2011, 01:32 PM   #156
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It's got to be a dynojet and the tuners stay away from the car after the flash
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      03-28-2011, 01:39 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries932 View Post
Well you guys are complaining stating that Gintani makes fake dyno claims...so the pretty easy way to shut up that arguement is to prove those specific gains on any of their cars or modifications on another dyno.

Also again the arguement that Gintani is a bad company because of a dyno is just ridiculous. I still have yet to see one thread pop up from you guys going after any intake manufacterer...or exhaust manufacterer for that matter. We all know gains from exhaust and intakes are minimal at best.
Edit: Just looking back at the first page...I am sure we could just get the same car out here to with the same modifications from that dyno run. I just think the most simple way to solve this arguement is prove the numbers in that dyno.
Dude... I don't think anyone here is stating that Gintani is a "bad company" nor are they saying that Gintani "makes fake dyno claims". There is only one dyno in question here and it's in question because of how 'irregular' the results are. The OP has spent a lot of time and effort,, to demonstrate why the results look 'irregular' and at this point everyone just wants to get to the bottom of this and figure out the 'truth'. Whether that be "Jeremy's got the best tune out there and because his tune is sooo great, it blows everyone else's out of the water" or "The dyno numbers got manipulated and this is how...". Whatever the outcome, it's going to be beneficial for the M3 community.

Also, in regards to gains being minimal at best from an exhaust. What type of exhaust are you referring to? I believe that a 'full exhaust' upgrade is one of the best ways to achieve maximum hp gains, next to forced induction.
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      03-28-2011, 02:12 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pumper206 View Post
Dude... I don't think anyone here is stating that Gintani is a "bad company" nor are they saying that Gintani "makes fake dyno claims".
Pumper206...I did read the thread...did you? My guess is that you just read the first page and then skipped to the end. Here are a couple of quotes below that will illustrate what I am replying to.



Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Please.... Who are you kidding ? How about all the recent blown oe tuned MB motors ??? With comments like yours protecting a dirty company like gintani only makes yourself look dirtier...
Yea definitely not saying Gintani is a bad company by saying it is a dirty company.

Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Wrong ..... Just plain wrong .... All the effort that gets put in to deceive people why don't they just steer that effort to actually bringing a product that works .....
Clearly a company that doesnt bring out products that work is a good company right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
It's important for the forum for the truth to come out. Either forum users are paying money to a sponsor and getting a great tune, or forum members being cheated out of their money on a bogus scam. I don't know which it is, but for the sake of the bimmerpost community it should be brought to light.
This might be either or kind of situation...but he is still bringing into question whether or not Gintani is a good or bad company. Just to clue you in....bad companies would be running a bogus scam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_FTW View Post
I have seen plenty plenty dyno graphs as well as had my own cars dynod. You will never ever get a linear gain like the OE/Gintani one is showing. They fucked with the dyno settings. Plain and simple.


From what i have read about OE/Gintani being involved in lawsuits, Jeremy stealing PC files etc. They dont seem like anyone I would like to do business with. ESS/AA FTMFW
Again bringing more statements without backing evidence to claim Gintani is a bad company..


After reading this you should have a good idea of what I am replying to. Apparently I have to put this together for you nice and neat due to you not reading the whole thread first before replying to my post. People are saying that Gintani is a bad company and I think the easiest way to solve this issue is to run another dyno on an M3 with their tune at a 3rd party dyno. I do not see how that would not be the most simple way of solving this issue. If it comes out at way below 325..well then we know that it was false....if it comes out pretty close to 325 well then we know it was correct. Plus we would be able to compare the two dynos.
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      03-28-2011, 02:20 PM   #159
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please don't take parts of my sentences out of context to fit your own made up argument
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      03-28-2011, 02:22 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
please don't take parts of my sentences out of context to fit your own made up argument
I posted your entire statement...how is that out of context...i even stated that you were bringing an either or statement to the table.
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      03-28-2011, 02:31 PM   #161
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just one dyno perhaps, but on a larger scale the integrity of said company/companies and it's products are also coming into question. As trust can no longer be put in any posted/advertised gains as the methods by which they have been obtained are no longer found to be "questionable".

yes exhausts and intakes are known to make minimal gains despite advertised larger numbers, but that knowledge and understanding came from/along with discussion and independent testing...

As always, do your research and make an informed decision for yourself...
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      03-28-2011, 02:33 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@Gintani.com View Post
To Mike & Mike's dyno expert: Can you please show all dynos comparing "tractive effort" (measured, not calculated values) for all. (Tractive effort is what a dyno actually records/measures to the wheels. Other variables can be calclated) This is just nonsesse colating data from different dyno brands that read/interpret data in different ways. Tractive effort is measured to the wheel. Please show that for real transparency.
What you have successfully done is let all consumers know that "all dynos" can be manipulated with a little effort (this does not say much for those who practice in this). Why not dissect DynoJet or Mustang next??? Same issues will always exist.
Please be my guest and ask for all details when using my dyno. I have no problem in displaying that the weather station is connected each time for every customer. With the weather station connected and "turned on", the variables that come into question (from other vendors) cannot be manipulated. THE END.
BTW: Powerchip does not own, ever owned a dyno nor operated one. Other posts exist where Powerchip refute dyno testing, and do not believe dynoing is a real measure of their products performance. Please feel free to search.

I remember a "dyno shootout" which I gladly wanted to participate in. This was cancelled due to other tuners backing out. I am down for this to go ahead on an independant dyno anytime. Any one want to jump in the ring for real?

Jeremy
I've just been reading everything out of curiosity, but I got really confused here, so I just wanted to ask a quick question.

The Jeremy that responded here is that OE Tuning Jeremy guy? The one who does the tunes right? Is OE Tuning and Gintani the same? Or are they separate? Or are there two Jeremys, one that works at Gintani, and then the other guy that tunes at OE Tuning? Or is there something else that I'm missing beyond all that? Just confused since I saw the response was written by Jeremy, and it'll help me follow all this better. Thanks.
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      03-28-2011, 02:41 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
The Jeremy that responded here is that OE Tuning Jeremy guy? The one who does the tunes right? Is OE Tuning and Gintani the same? Or are they separate? Or are there two Jeremys, one that works at Gintani, and then the other guy that tunes at OE Tuning? Or is there something else that I'm missing beyond all that? Just confused since I saw the response was written by Jeremy, and it'll help me follow all this better. Thanks.
AFAIK... there's only one Jeremy. He owns and runs OE Tuning. He rents space from Gintani so he has a place to run OE Tuning and so he has access to a dyno.
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      03-28-2011, 03:09 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90///M3` View Post
AFAIK... there's only one Jeremy. He owns and runs OE Tuning. He rents space from Gintani so he has a place to run OE Tuning and so he has access to a dyno.
Got it, thanks Jason. I just got confused 'cuz it was Sales@Gintani that responded, so I got a little lost.
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      03-28-2011, 03:27 PM   #165
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I get one thing from threads like this: exhibit A for why I give Dinan the extra money.

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      03-28-2011, 04:44 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries932 View Post
Pumper206...I did read the thread...did you? My guess is that you just read the first page and then skipped to the end. Here are a couple of quotes below that will illustrate what I am replying to.





Yea definitely not saying Gintani is a bad company by saying it is a dirty company.



Clearly a company that doesnt bring out products that work is a good company right?



This might be either or kind of situation...but he is still bringing into question whether or not Gintani is a good or bad company. Just to clue you in....bad companies would be running a bogus scam.



Again bringing more statements without backing evidence to claim Gintani is a bad company..


After reading this you should have a good idea of what I am replying to. Apparently I have to put this together for you nice and neat due to you not reading the whole thread first before replying to my post. People are saying that Gintani is a bad company and I think the easiest way to solve this issue is to run another dyno on an M3 with their tune at a 3rd party dyno. I do not see how that would not be the most simple way of solving this issue. If it comes out at way below 325..well then we know that it was false....if it comes out pretty close to 325 well then we know it was correct. Plus we would be able to compare the two dynos.
I'm pretty sure the OP is not saying that Gintani is a bad company. However, there may be other posters in this thread that are making those claims, as you pointed out....

And, until we have 100% irrefutable evidence that Gintani did manipulate there dynos, there really isn't any other indication that Gintani is a "bad company" as you keep pointing out that the OP is trying to state.

***EDIT: Also, try filtering out the comments about how "bad" a company Gintani or PC is and read the ones that are actually relevant. Then you might, and I stress might, have a clue to what the OP is trying to prove.***

Last edited by pumper206; 03-28-2011 at 05:06 PM.
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      03-28-2011, 04:46 PM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sales@Gintani.com View Post
To Mike & Mike's dyno expert: Can you please show all dynos comparing "tractive effort" (measured, not calculated values) for all. (Tractive effort is what a dyno actually records/measures to the wheels. Other variables can be calclated) This is just nonsesse colating data from different dyno brands that read/interpret data in different ways. Tractive effort is measured to the wheel. Please show that for real transparency.
What you have successfully done is let all consumers know that "all dynos" can be manipulated with a little effort (this does not say much for those who practice in this). Why not dissect DynoJet or Mustang next??? Same issues will always exist.
Please be my guest and ask for all details when using my dyno. I have no problem in displaying that the weather station is connected each time for every customer. With the weather station connected and "turned on", the variables that come into question (from other vendors) cannot be manipulated. THE END.
BTW: Powerchip does not own, ever owned a dyno nor operated one. Other posts exist where Powerchip refute dyno testing, and do not believe dynoing is a real measure of their products performance. Please feel free to search.

I remember a "dyno shootout" which I gladly wanted to participate in. This was cancelled due to other tuners backing out. I am down for this to go ahead on an independant dyno anytime. Any one want to jump in the ring for real?

Jeremy
Jeremy,

the subject of tractive effort is irrelevant and that can also be manipulated unfortunately.

Leaving the weather station on doesn't mean you cannot manipulate results. There is still the gear used in question, the inlet temperature probe reading and then how hard the car is strapped down. You know that allowing the car to climb the roller makes MUCH more power than when it's strapped down really hard.

I can demonstrate all of the above if you want me to..... in detail.

The point is that you can display both wheel and flywheel if you want along with all of he correction factors and this is usually enough to verify results.

If an operator wants to cheat they can and you know this as a dyno operator.

We as professionals do not allow results to be released from our dyno that compare our tune with our competition.
We recently had a quite a few M3's in which we tuned and they were all previously tuned by a another company.

We either returned the cars back to stock first for a baseline or we did not release the baseline of the car with the competitions' tune.... not even to the customer.

If you follow the same rules then this type of scenario will never arise.
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      03-28-2011, 04:57 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E39hijinks View Post
Looks like another BS thread/crusade against OE/Gintani spearheaded by a "rival" envious "tuner" and their minions. You're bringing the claims: prove them. Don't just mouth off and repeat what you've read or heard in forums. I for one am a satisfied OE customer.

Conjecture, speculation, and trolling FTMFL
Seriously. Did you not read the previous 5 or however many its at now pages of this thread and the other parallel thread in this forum. So much data to support the claim but none to refute it except for a bunch of people like you saying what amounts to "OE/GINTANI RULES!". I think its the OE/Gintani side that has some explaining to do, not the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries932 View Post
Funny how when we all ask for them to stop talking unless they have concrete evidence...they all shut up...

Well I guess lets look on the bright side at least they know how to listen.
There's really nothing more to say. The information is out there for everyone to see. If OE/Gintani has nothing to add, than its up to the individuals to decide who they want to support. The childish acts of a select few don't even warrant the effort of a response.
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      03-28-2011, 05:20 PM   #169
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Wasn't there this huge thread calling out Gintani and w/e on M3Forum regarding some kind of fraud etc. Supposedly stole lots of money etc.
I dont wana link because I dont think its allowed on this forum.
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      03-28-2011, 05:26 PM   #170
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^ yes there was, im not sure what to think at this point..
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      03-28-2011, 05:32 PM   #171
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I think we will be awaiting Gintani's response for quite some time guys...

(and I don't mean that BS response above that is not even addressing the accusations)
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      03-28-2011, 05:45 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pumper206 View Post
I'm pretty sure the OP is not saying that Gintani is a bad company. However, there may be other posters in this thread that are making those claims, as you pointed out....

And, until we have 100% irrefutable evidence that Gintani did manipulate there dynos, there really isn't any other indication that Gintani is a "bad company" as you keep pointing out that the OP is trying to state.

***EDIT: Also, try filtering out the comments about how "bad" a company Gintani or PC is and read the ones that are actually relevant. Then you might, and I stress might, have a clue to what the OP is trying to prove.***
I understand exactly what the OP was trying to prove...pretty simple that Gintani manipulated the dyno results. If you read my original posts it was directly in response to that question....in fact even my later posts offered the solution of getting a M3 with their tune to go to a 3rd party dyno to confirm the dyno results.

At the end of the day this is what it comes down to. Most likely they did manipulate the dyno results....the real question is if their tune actually makes that much power. Although you might say the power curve can be all jacked up in reality a tune is not going to completely throw the power curve off.

Also if we find out they did manipulate the dyno results I am really not going to be surprised....we all know most aftermarket companies do. Hence why most people rely on their own dyno results not the companies.

As for my reply to other people...I absolutely believe that people will read the first page of this thread and be turned off from Gintani. Personally I think it is completely screwed up of people to come into a public forum with no supporting evidence and claim a company is bad. That can seriously hurt the company and in some cases it has put companies out of business. All because some idiots thought they would run their mouth.

I promise you that I will reply to anyone who comes into a post that is pretty reasonable speculation and just throws out something along the lines of "a dirty company like..."

Right now you only have speculation not proof.
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      03-28-2011, 05:59 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aries932 View Post
At the end of the day this is what it comes down to. Most likely they did manipulate the dyno results....the real question is if their tune actually makes that much power. Although you might say the power curve can be all jacked up in reality a tune is not going to completely throw the power curve off.

Also if we find out they did manipulate the dyno results I am really not going to be surprised....we all know most aftermarket companies do. Hence why most people rely on their own dyno results not the companies.

As for my reply to other people...I absolutely believe that people will read the first page of this thread and be turned off from Gintani. Personally I think it is completely screwed up of people to come into a public forum with no supporting evidence and claim a company is bad. That can seriously hurt the company and in some cases it has put companies out of business. All because some idiots thought they would run their mouth.
At they end of the day it comes down to whether they manipulated the dyno results, not if the tune makes power. See the name of this thread, it's about the dyno.

What's screwed up is a company putting out false claims of their product. (again I'm not claiming they did, just replying to your response). If a company gets hurt by putting out false advertising then they brought it on themselves.
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      03-28-2011, 06:19 PM   #174
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At the end of the day this is what it comes down to. Most likely they did manipulate the dyno results....the real question is if their tune actually makes that much power.
<conjecture>
If it means anything, I do think the OE tune made more power. I've done some additional analysis which leads me to believe this is the most likely scenario:



Basically I think *something* odd happened on the original graph which caused a 5-7hp difference between the (custom?) OE and off-the-shelf PC tunes to become exaggerated into 25hp+
</conjecture>
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      03-28-2011, 06:27 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pumper206 View Post
I'm pretty sure the OP is not saying that Gintani is a bad company. However, there may be other posters in this thread that are making those claims, as you pointed out....

And, until we have 100% irrefutable evidence that Gintani did manipulate there dynos, there really isn't any other indication that Gintani is a "bad company" as you keep pointing out that the OP is trying to state.

***EDIT: Also, try filtering out the comments about how "bad" a company Gintani or PC is and read the ones that are actually relevant. Then you might, and I stress might, have a clue to what the OP is trying to prove.***
Unfortunately/fortunately, public opinion is not a court of law and the standard of proof is much less (rightfully so). If speculation builds concerning a company and how they might have tinkered with dyno results in order to boost supposed gains...I ain't buying; and I'm sure many others aren't either.

Folks keep stating that this thread is not about whether OE/Gintani are bad companies and only about dyno results...Not true.

If OE/Gintani manipulated the dyno in order to create fictitious gains, they ARE bad companies.
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      03-28-2011, 07:28 PM   #176
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^ yes there was, im not sure what to think at this point..
I think most ppl at this point except for the direct offenders and supporters, nobody will go with gintani or OE at this point because their rep is kind of ruined weather the accusations are true or not. If there is a reason to suspect, there is reason to avoid.
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