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03272011, 06:59 PM  #133 
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03272011, 09:25 PM  #134  
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And if you happen to have any 'proof' of any points your making or the sad attempt to debunk mine  feel free to post them  otherwise your insults and comments such as "makes no sense" and "wrong again" and "BS" are the very definition of "conjecture" Do you have any understanding of the word "hipocracy"? And yes, i am a little embarrassed, ...that i engaged you. Last edited by mastek; 03272011 at 10:27 PM. 

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03272011, 09:27 PM  #135 
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To me this is the most interesting thing posted throughout this entire debate, and I don't mean just this thread. Thanks for posting it.
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03282011, 12:03 AM  #136  
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03282011, 06:11 AM  #137 
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Yes this is nice and good work to the person putting it together. However, this is a very small sample size and doesn't necessarily fall under the idealized normal distribution. And honestly, if someone put the time in, they could build a software that addresses each single revolution per minute more and adjust the fuel supply, ignition, etc. to create a more consistent gain throughout the powerband. I'm not arguing for either side, I really don't care, but I don't think that a bell curve with n=4 is necessarily a good comparison. Whats to say that the results should actually be a normal curve? Maybe there is a limited extreme of variation with AA, ESS, GIAC falling in that extreme (where a majority of tunes would fall), the curve extends far along out to the right where you find OE  this would still mean they had a low probability of producing the consistent returns they did, but it could make it more likely than placing this in a normal distribution.
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03282011, 08:48 AM  #138 
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^ I agree with some points. However it does show 3 almost the same, and 1 quite a bit different. It could be that OE knows something none of the other tuners know. One way that can be proven to be true would be by the dyno challenge PC has proposed. Until then, you are correct it doesn't prove anything about how well the OE tune is. But it does prove OE's tune is quite a bit different than the other 3, which by the graph are all fairly similar. That graph in addition to the dyno graphs from OE are combining to show an odd set of circumstances with the OE tune. There's also all the info posted in this thread about how to cheat dyno numbers and what the results may look like if cheated.
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03282011, 08:51 AM  #139  
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If they did what I proposed they could do in my previous post (addressing each RPM on its own throughout the entire powerband), software would probably be very very expensive (which it is not).
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03282011, 08:52 AM  #140 
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I added a couple more sentences while you were quoting me
"That graph in addition to the dyno graphs from OE are combining to show an odd set of circumstances with the OE tune. There's also all the info posted in this thread about how to cheat dyno numbers and what the results may look like if cheated."
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03282011, 08:56 AM  #141  
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03282011, 09:41 AM  #142  
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What normal distribution looks like... 95.4% of the data should fall within + 2 standard deviations of the mean. 99.7% should fall within + 3 standard deviations, and 99.99% should fall within 4, and 99.9999% should fall within 5. Gintani fell outside of 5 standard deviations. (6 is the statistical limit  anything outside of that is essentially impossible rather than just really really really really unlikely). Potential criticism: 1) Sample size is too small... Response: The calculation of standard deviation factors in sample size (small samples will have a larger standard deviation than larger samples of the same distribution). 2) This assumes a normal distribution Response: It does assume a normal distribution... However, a normal distribution seems to hold when I add additional tuners to the existing graph: or if I use them to calculate a new standard deviation: 3) There is a dynojet bias to the data Response: Possible, but as you can see above Evolve's DD data fit the normal distribution  as did GIAC's loadbearing mustang dyno. However, both of those graphs also included an aftermarket air filter and Evolve's before/after was done on 2 separate cars/days so they are imperfect comparisons (I would of course welcome additional data) Last edited by spdu4ea; 03282011 at 10:23 AM. 

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03282011, 09:48 AM  #143 
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Good response. The other manufacturers do fall into this normal distribution quite nicely.
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03282011, 09:56 AM  #144 
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I think Gintani should respond to the graph above. I would love to hear an explanation of why their tune/dyno run is no where close to what other tuners are getting.
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03282011, 10:33 AM  #145 
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Because they are just so goooooooooood will be the response. But as I mentioned, their tune should be $10,000 if they put in the effort required to create what they claim they have created.
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03282011, 11:23 AM  #146 
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To Mike & Mike's dyno expert: Can you please show all dynos comparing "tractive effort" (measured, not calculated values) for all. (Tractive effort is what a dyno actually records/measures to the wheels. Other variables can be calclated) This is just nonsesse colating data from different dyno brands that read/interpret data in different ways. Tractive effort is measured to the wheel. Please show that for real transparency.
What you have successfully done is let all consumers know that "all dynos" can be manipulated with a little effort (this does not say much for those who practice in this). Why not dissect DynoJet or Mustang next??? Same issues will always exist. Please be my guest and ask for all details when using my dyno. I have no problem in displaying that the weather station is connected each time for every customer. With the weather station connected and "turned on", the variables that come into question (from other vendors) cannot be manipulated. THE END. BTW: Powerchip does not own, ever owned a dyno nor operated one. Other posts exist where Powerchip refute dyno testing, and do not believe dynoing is a real measure of their products performance. Please feel free to search. I remember a "dyno shootout" which I gladly wanted to participate in. This was cancelled due to other tuners backing out. I am down for this to go ahead on an independant dyno anytime. Any one want to jump in the ring for real? Jeremy Last edited by Sales@Gintani.com; 03282011 at 11:45 AM. 
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03282011, 11:45 AM  #148  
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If this isn't the one thing that we can conclude from all of this, I dont know what is?
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03282011, 11:48 AM  #149  
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03282011, 12:51 PM  #150 
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Somehow that wasn't the response we were all waiting for.
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03282011, 01:08 PM  #151 
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I am pretty sure I am correct with regards to defending Gintani and to get solid evidence if Gintani is up for it I would like to offer up a challenge.
Gintani is out of Van Nuys from the looks of things and so am I. So if Gintani or anyone with a Gintani Supercharger is up for it there is a HK MotorSports Dyno maybe a mile down the road from you on Oxnard in Van Nuys that we could meet up at and prove that you are actually making these gains. I will even pay half the cost of the dyno which is $95 for 3 runs. I will then take the dyno information and post it on this thread. Seems like the best way to solve this whole stupid arguement. What do you think? 
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03282011, 01:13 PM  #152  
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03282011, 01:16 PM  #153  
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Hats off to the OP for all of the work, I am not sure how many hours you have in this analysis, but your efforts to date have elevated the stature of the community. Quote:
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That would be a fun time and allot of work , but for now I think the community would settle for a 3rd party assesment of your software to verify your own dyno results. Last edited by crummer; 03282011 at 01:39 PM. 

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