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      04-07-2011, 04:19 PM   #287
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duk: Thank you for your comments.

powertrip: I tried to find a completely objective third party - fair is fair. I'm glad that you have confidence in that shop as well. I have never been there but have heard good things.

alpine335: They are welcome to show up. The last I heard from Alex is that they didn't have time before MFest, which is understandable. They need not be involved - the OP is welcome to get the EZFlash unit.
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      04-07-2011, 05:31 PM   #288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip View Post
duk: Thank you for your comments.

powertrip: I tried to find a completely objective third party - fair is fair. I'm glad that you have confidence in that shop as well. I have never been there but have heard good things.

alpine335: They are welcome to show up. The last I heard from Alex is that they didn't have time before MFest, which is understandable. They need not be involved - the OP is welcome to get the EZFlash unit.
How is this fair exactly?
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      04-07-2011, 06:01 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by maaicher View Post
How is this fair exactly?
Man I love the look of your car.... well done
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      04-07-2011, 06:41 PM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@Powerchip View Post
James, as discussed earlier in the week, Friday seemed to be good for everyone.

We are planning on Tomorrow 2PM @ Church automotive - a third party dyno with spark logging ability.

Pencilgeek will be present as well to verify results.
James: Called you a left a VM - please let me know if you can make it tomorrow.

I think everyone is eager to put this situation to bed. I certainly do not want to deal with it anymore - so the sooner it's done the better. It doesn't get any brighter than exactly 24.014 hours from now.

Thank you,
Mike B
LOL, Pencilgeek will verify the results. HaHa.

From everything I read on the different forums. He has an agenda to destroy Gintani every chance he gets.

Him being there destroys all credibility to what your trying to do.
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      04-07-2011, 06:59 PM   #291
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      04-07-2011, 07:10 PM   #292
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      04-07-2011, 07:13 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by Bluechipper View Post
LOL, Pencilgeek will verify the results. HaHa.

From everything I read on the different forums. He has an agenda to destroy Gintani every chance he gets.

Him being there destroys all credibility to what your trying to do.
+1
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      04-07-2011, 07:16 PM   #294
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+2 Although I like a lot of stuff Pencilgeek says and he's very knowledgeable with dyno's there's been too much drama with him and Gintani. Even if he plays fair, the results will surely be pulled into question. I suggest leaving him out.
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      04-07-2011, 07:39 PM   #295
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What were the rules/terms of the test if that is possible to know?
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      04-07-2011, 08:24 PM   #296
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Definitely agree that PG should not be there .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluechipper View Post
LOL, Pencilgeek will verify the results. HaHa.

From everything I read on the different forums. He has an agenda to destroy Gintani every chance he gets.

Him being there destroys all credibility to what your trying to do.
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      04-07-2011, 08:59 PM   #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluechipper View Post
LOL, Pencilgeek will verify the results. HaHa.

From everything I read on the different forums. He has an agenda to destroy Gintani every chance he gets.

Him being there destroys all credibility to what your trying to do.
not only that but the independent dyno showcasing both companies only has one company in attendance, how does this solve anything?
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      04-07-2011, 11:22 PM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duk View Post
What were the rules/terms of the test if that is possible to know?
As suggested by PencilGeek:

Before testing:
• The OP should meet me with an empty tank of gas. We will add five gallons of 91 octane to his tank then travel to the dyno
• He should bring an EZ-Flash with his file on it.
• We will provide the OEM stock file that will be used by both parties. The OP will install the OEM file on the EZ Flash, and we will be allowed to verify that installing it on EZ Flash was done correctly.
• The OP's car will be strapped to the dyno.
• The dyno will collect HP, Torque, RPM, AFR, and spark advance.


Testing Procedure (Part-1):
• The OP will flash the car to factory ECU file using the EZ Flash.
• The car will be warmed up to operating temperature.
• We will dyno five pulls on the factory ECU file with the hood down.
• 15-second cool downs between dyno pulls.
• No water spray will be allowed before, between, or after each pull or test sessions.
• The car ECU will be read for fault codes.
• The OP will flash his OE tune in the car.
• The testing procedure will be repeated as above.
• The car ECU will be read for fault codes.
• The OP will flash is car back to stock.
• PowerChip will flash the OP's original tuned file onto his car.
• The testing procedure will be repeated as above.
• The car ECU will be read for fault codes.

• All files from all pulls will be made available for download to the public.
• Any graphs that are printed from the results mush show all five pulls.
• All graphs must show HP, TQ, AFR, SPRK, and RPM.
• The 2nd, 3rd, and 4th pulls will be used for comparison in all tests.
• Pulls 2, 3, and 4 will be exported to an Excel spreadsheet.
• Pulls 2, 3, and 4 will be averaged using Excel, and a single graph generated to show HP, TQ, AFR, SPRK, and RPM. These are the results that will be used by both parties when discussing and making the comparisons to each other -- not the highest or lowest runs of the sessions.
• If the OP doesn't already have an EZ-Flash, we will pay for the one he brought to the test. We trust he will be honest about this.
• The OP must show a minimum 25whp gain over his original PowerChip tune in order to collect the $690 we are offering.
• The OP is free to keep the EZ Flash at the end of the test.

Optional Test:
• We will add five gallons of 100 octane race gas to the OP's car.
• We will repeat the Testing Procedure listed above.
• The OP will flash his car with his OE tune and we are done.

For those wondering, the 100 octane test is designed to verify the safety of the ECU tune. It's very common for ECU tuners to set very high timing targets in the ECU and leave no safety margin. Since the OP has stated he wants to run the best tune but also wants to ensure it is safe, this test with 100 octane gas will be designed to verify that the ECU has safe timing targets set in its programming. The ECU will adapt to the higher octane gas and we should see a change of timing in the SPRK dyno results and a corresponding increase in power. If unsafe timing targets are set in the ECU programming, then likely no extra power will be seen and the timing charts will look the same.

After all of that, the OP will flash his car back with the O/E tune, and the session is concluded.
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Last edited by Mike Benvo; 04-07-2011 at 11:29 PM.
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      04-07-2011, 11:24 PM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluechipper View Post
LOL, Pencilgeek will verify the results. HaHa.

From everything I read on the different forums. He has an agenda to destroy Gintani every chance he gets.

Him being there destroys all credibility to what your trying to do.
I read a lot of forums, and I think PG is widely respected everywhere except one place. *That one place happens to be run by an investor in Gintani...so what would you expect him to say? *Sad that so many people believe that guy when he offers no proof to back up what he says.
Quote:
Originally Posted by J08M3 View Post
+2 Although I like a lot of stuff Pencilgeek says and he's very knowledgeable with dyno's there's been too much drama with him and Gintani. Even if he plays fair, the results will surely be pulled into question. I suggest leaving him out.
PG hosts hundreds of dynos's at his own personal expense. **For everything he does, he makes every file, spreadsheet, and formula available for everybody to download and analyze. *Unlike some people posting in this thread, his dyno's have never been called into question, and none of his techniques have ever been questioned either. *His work, methods, and results are an open book that everybody should follow. *If anything, his participation adds legitimacy to the shoot out because it will ensure that the event is not only documented and run fairly, but you'll get to read how it was done and then download everything in the end and see the results for yourself. *I wouldn't trust anybody else to run it and analyze the results. *As you said, nobody knows more than PG on dyno results, so if anybody's going to make sure no BS occurs, he's the guy to be there.

Sad that all five people who still support Gintani had to come in here within minutes of seeing PG's name mentioned. *Looks like they are trying real hard to change the subject from dyno cheating to PG's involvement.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maaicher View Post
not only that but the independent dyno showcasing both companies only has one company in attendance, how does this solve anything?
This isn't a company shoot out, this is something the OP asked for. *It's a simple matter of running his car with his current tune, then flashing in the PC tune to see if it's 25whp less. *It's his car and he can do whatever he wants with it. *I'd still like to know what influence or power Gintani has to prevent the OP from going through with this test as he promised Mike? *They set a date and he promised to be there. *Now there's excuses and he's not returning Mike's phone calls after Mike went through the hassle to set the whole thing up. *PC even offered to buy the guy an EZ Flash if he didn't own one. *Nothing should stop this unless they have something to hide.
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      04-07-2011, 11:54 PM   #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
I read a lot of forums, and I think PG is widely respected everywhere except one place. *That one place happens to be run by an investor in Gintani...so what would you expect him to say? *Sad that so many people believe that guy when he offers no proof to back up what he says.
Don't know exactly what forum your are talking about. But just about every Gintani thread I see on other M3/M5 forums, he joins in and trys to destroy a companies image. He seems to really hate Gintani. I am not sure what Gintani did to him, but there is no question he has it out for them. The very fact he is involved in this, just kills all credibility of this test.

Lets see a "true" independent test. Without people involved that have agendas.
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      04-08-2011, 12:13 AM   #301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluechipper View Post
Don't know exactly what forum your are talking about. But just about every Gintani thread I see on other M3/M5 forums, he joins in and trys to destroy a companies image. He seems to really hate Gintani. I am not sure what Gintani did to him, but there is no question he has it out for them. The very fact he is involved in this, just kills all credibility of this test.

Lets see a "true" independent test. Without people involved that have agendas.
Know one will know what the real issues are between the two but I can tell you this, PG has creditability and is by far one of the most honest enthusiast on this board who offered more than most have , yeah he can be a pain at times, we all can at one time or another ( even me ) .
I like the fact that he can reem through BS and bring light to a matter so it would be beneficial that he attend ...
But hey who am I to say this is just my 2penny's

Last edited by m33; 04-08-2011 at 12:19 AM.
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      04-08-2011, 12:17 AM   #302
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And I wouldn't disgrace this forum by mentioning the forum .....

I call it Gintani Home base
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      04-08-2011, 01:22 AM   #303
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Sorry, I needed a refill.
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      04-08-2011, 04:54 AM   #304
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Sorry, I needed a refill.
decided to pull up a chair next to you bud...
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      04-08-2011, 05:55 AM   #305
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M33= 2nd biggest gintani hater, of course you have no problem with him being there. If PG was batman, you would be his Robin.
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      04-08-2011, 06:14 AM   #306
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I suggest video of the whole event and placing on YouTube so everyone can see how the test is being conducted.

Aside from the drama it will settle (hopefully settle ) in this thread it will be one of the best comparison test ever performed between two different tuning companies.
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      04-08-2011, 06:29 AM   #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m33 View Post
Know one will know what the real issues are between the two but I can tell you this, PG has creditability and is by far one of the most honest enthusiast on this board who offered more than most have , yeah he can be a pain at times, we all can at one time or another ( even me ) .
I like the fact that he can reem through BS and bring light to a matter so it would be beneficial that he attend ...
But hey who am I to say this is just my 2penny's
I agree.

You can decide to not-like the man if you choose (However I think he's a good guy) but he backs his stuff up with endless data and then the methodology behind the data. It's more than you can say for most here.
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      04-08-2011, 06:42 AM   #308
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I don't see how there will be any credibility in this testing if your testing the OE tune without them present. "if" the OE tune does in fact make that much more power do any of you really expect PC to report that back to you? Not good for business If you ask me, and that what PC and all this is about. Business. Mike and PC are only involved because the OP Hirt there business with those "low" dyno Numbers. Now they are testing without OE, I'm sure that's exactly what they wanted from the start. This will be just ad unfair as OE testing there tune and saying it loses power. No credibility at all. And lol at PG being there, real nice!
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