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      03-10-2007, 12:03 AM   #1
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E92 versus E92

Hello, folks!

I am new to the M3Post boards, but am active on the E90Post boards, as I just recently purchased an E92 335. I was considering buying another E92, but in the form of an M3, but upon talking to my SA at BMW and a few people "in the know," they said that if I was going to buy the M3 as a speed upgrade, it wouldn't be worth the money.
They cite the new V8 engine's making the E92 M3 452lbs heavier than the 335, and while there is a great amount of difference in power (300hp vs. 400something), the actual power of the 335 is greater than BMW reported. In 0-60, the 335 is reported at 5.5 seconds from BMW, but car and driver tested it at 4.9.
I have some friends in the car business, so I had them throw my car on a dyno, and to my surprise, my "300hp" engine was actually putting down closer to 340hp. As it was explained to me, the 335 actually isnt that much slower than the new M3 is, but it was undercut on its reported power and speed in order to keep the difference in power/speed between the 335 and M3 bigger than it actually is.
Apparantly, BMW was iffy on having the 335 and M3's power and speed differences being so small, especially since their previous 330 and M3 difference was so substantial. What do you guys think? I am still torn on it...on the streets the difference between the 335 and the M3 is looking to be marginal, on the track I am sure te M3 would eat the 335 alive, but I don't track my cars. Anyone?
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      03-10-2007, 12:24 AM   #2
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This topic has been hammered to death, and will continue to be hammered to death until we all get to drive the V8 M3 and determine for ourselves just how much better it is than the 335i.

If you primarily like your 335i for straight line speed, occational back road runs, and the luxury of the brand, it is the perfect car for you.

If you want a more "raw" machine that not only is fast, but sounds and acts fast, and you love to rev the engine to have it make power the new M3 may be your car.

Spend the next couple of hours using teh button (above) and you will get to read some great (and very long) arguments about the 335i vs. E92 M3.

Good luck!
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      03-10-2007, 04:01 AM   #3
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Typical dealer BS

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDYANKEE View Post
They cite the new V8 engine's making the E92 M3 452lbs heavier than the 335
I'll only talk about weight. Like e36jakeo said read older threads on performance comparos.

The new M3 V8 will definitely not be a porker of an engine. Was the E60 M5 engine a porker for a V10? Counting the extra weight from the turbos, intercoolers, plumbing, etc., the new M3 V8 will probably be within 50-75 lb of the 335i engine. Heck it may even be closer than that. Also since it is a V8 and shorter it can be placed further back in the chassis cobntributing to a better weight distribution and lower polar moment of intertia. No matter what happens to the engine there is NO WAY the new M3 will be 400 lb heavier than the 335i. That would be only a bit under 4000 lb. I'd bet my car it wont be anywhere close to that.

Oh, and last but not least, no dealers have weight specs yet, period.
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      03-10-2007, 08:56 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
No matter what happens to the engine there is NO WAY the new M3 will be 400 lb heavier than the 335i. That would be only a bit under 4000 lb. I'd bet my car it wont be anywhere close to that.
+1

400+ lbs weight gain is just not reasonable in any way. Plus, now that we've seen the concept it is clear BMW is working hard to combat weight gain using lower weight carbon fiber parts where its cost effective. Its possible they will be able to offset whatever extra weight the V8 would have added just by using these weight saving measures.
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      03-10-2007, 09:17 AM   #5
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Lack of LSD, skinnier tires, alu bonnet, also the regular 335i engine is dynoed to be around 310-312hp never 330 hp (ask them to show u the dyno results), unless u have chipped it or something. Also if DSG is real then it will eat the 335 alive.

Ofcourse the difference won't be night and day, not until u revv them the 335i will run out of steam above 5k rpm and the M3 pulls til 8krpm!
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      03-10-2007, 12:51 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E36325is View Post
Lack of LSD, skinnier tires, alu bonnet, also the regular 335i engine is dynoed to be around 310-312hp never 330 hp (ask them to show u the dyno results), unless u have chipped it or something. Also if DSG is real then it will eat the 335 alive.

Ofcourse the difference won't be night and day, not until u revv them the 335i will run out of steam above 5k rpm and the M3 pulls til 8krpm!
yeah but the 335 starts at 1.4k... and who knows where the n/a m3 is gonna start...
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      03-10-2007, 01:48 PM   #7
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My friend, a M is always a M. There are a lot more inside beside the horsepower difference. Also, the M commands respect and all the drivers of the 335 will look at the M, not the other way around.

Go for the M. I have had three M3 so far. You will not regret it.
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      03-10-2007, 09:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriver View Post
My friend, a M is always a M. There are a lot more inside beside the horsepower difference. Also, the M commands respect and all the drivers of the 335 will look at the M, not the other way around.

Go for the M. I have had three M3 so far. You will not regret it.
I am not driving for attention, in fact, the less attention I get the better. I am 20 years old and don't necessarily need the M3 for the drawing power of it; I've already drawn the death stares from people who don't understand how I am driving the 335. Spending another 65-70k on an M3 isn't really all too big of a deal, but only if the M is head and shoulders above and beyond my current E92 335. I like the low end power of my 335, but the handling will be otherworldly in the M3. I guess I will just be waiting like the rest of you to see what the new M drives like, and make my decision from there. Considering quickness, the gap between the 330 and the M3 (E46s) in the 0-60 was 1.2 seconds, with a C&D tested 4.9 second 60 on the 335 coupe manual, I don't see how that gap can be maintained...not that 0-60 is how I determine what I go for, but it just seems like the new top of the line non-M 3 series is closing in on the M3. With a $1300 Vishnu tuning chip, a 335 will still be anywhere from 13-17k cheaper and will be faster (albeit not handle nearly as well). I am torn, but this will have to wait until I drive the M3
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      03-11-2007, 07:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDYANKEE View Post
I like the low end power of my 335, but the handling will be otherworldly in the M3.
Stock for stock the M3 will handle better for sure, but we have to remember its not like they are using top secret alien technology. You can make the 335i handle like race car too if you go aftermarket. You can even get an LSD but you will need to go custom, I think, if you want one that is as good as the M diff. Of course, this will all mean spending a good chunk of change. And its also likely the M3 will use more aluminum in the suspension which you will not have on the 335i (unless you bought the OEM parts and put them on but again that's more $$$).

Quote:
I guess I will just be waiting like the rest of you to see what the new M drives like, and make my decision from there. Considering quickness, the gap between the 330 and the M3 (E46s) in the 0-60 was 1.2 seconds, with a C&D tested 4.9 second 60 on the 335 coupe manual, I don't see how that gap can be maintained...not that 0-60 is how I determine what I go for, but it just seems like the new top of the line non-M 3 series is closing in on the M3.
Exactly - the value equation is beginning to brake down for this generation. Or so it appears at this early stage in the game. One thing is for certain - the M3 will not match peak torque of the 335i in stock form and once you chip the 335i - forget it. Definitely a wait and see approach is the wise move.

Quote:
With a $1300 Vishnu tuning chip, a 335 will still be anywhere from 13-17k cheaper and will be faster (albeit not handle nearly as well). I am torn, but this will have to wait until I drive the M3
And on top of that 17k savings, you can do ED on the 335i and save another 6k (you can do ED on a M3 too but it will save you nothing) and plus you can likely order it more stripped than the M3 making the differnce even greater. My wife's E90 335i was less than 40k (just over 40k when we add in tax). I can't imagine that, for another 10k invested - PROcede, suspension, and LSD - that it could not be made to come within striking distance of an M3. I could end up being wrong about that, but right now it just doesn't seem like its an unreasonable proposal.
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      03-11-2007, 08:48 AM   #10
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It sounds like you get high on your 335 and that what counts. Just be your own person, enjoy the drive, and at your age you have a lot of livin' and drivin' in other cars waiting for you. Yahoo!
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      03-11-2007, 10:37 PM   #11
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A decently equipped 335i is around 45k. Add 2k to install and paint an m5 style or mtech bodykit. Add another 2k for suspension upgrades. Add another 1500 for Procede. Add another 2-3k for bigger wheels and wider tires. Add another 2k for better brakes (m3 caliber brakes). Add another 4k for lsd installed. That puts you at around 59k to get a 335i to match the m3. The m3 msrp is going to be around 55-59k Maybe 67k optioned out. With the m3 you get a wider front and rear body that would cost an arm and leg to do on a 335. You get an overall better performing car around a track or in general. You get an N/A v8 that sounds mean and throaty, and you get a 4 year 50k mile waranty. Imagine an intake and exhaust on the m3. Keep the waranty and gain about 20 hp. 440-450 hp v8. With a 335i + all those mods. You lose engine, suspension and brake waranty. For those who love modding and want to spend a lot of time and money doing it, maybe a 335 is a better option. For those who want a car thats great stock, the m3 is a better option. Another huge bonus is an m3 is an ///M. You can mod a 3 series, 5 series or 6 series as much as you want, but the M series is always going to perform better. I am not bias either. I do not own an M car. I own a BMW 330ci. I am just saying it how it is. My next car is definitely going to be an m3. After owning my 330ci for 4 years and spending money on all my mods, I realize no matter what I do I would still rather have a bone stock m3.
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      03-14-2007, 11:21 PM   #12
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335i leaves a bad taste in M owners's for some reason - I dont know why??? Its a great car, M for many represents performance refined to its purest form but to alot of others its also a Bring "Me" Women magnet. M's are fun on winding roads and nice twisties. I cant stand losers chillen behind the wheel of one who want to showboat look i got an expensive car, more expensive than your "regular" 3 series. There is nothing regular about these cars. I think the OP is right on, the difference between the 330 and e46 was significant. That difference isnt going to be as clearly defined any more with the 335. Again, awaiting a test drive of the M to really guage if my two cents have any merit- just like everyone else.
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      03-15-2007, 04:52 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLUE LABEL View Post
335i leaves a bad taste in M owners's for some reason - I dont know why???
its because this subject has been done to death...
yes you could prob match the M3 with a modied 335i.
but we concluded.. why they hell would you want to!

it would cost near the same as a M3 stock
and you would loose most of the mod investment at resale.

its like the entire existence of the car would be to "beat a M3"
i find that sad.

Quote:
Its a great car, M for many represents performance refined to its purest form but to alot of others its also a Bring "Me" Women magnet. M's are fun on winding roads and nice twisties. I cant stand losers chillen behind the wheel of one who want to showboat look i got an expensive car, more expensive than your "regular" 3 series.
The M3 is what it is.. prob 1 of the most desirable cars in the world.
when i drive down the steet.. 330i owners turn and stare.
not our fault.

Quote:
That difference isnt going to be as clearly defined any more with the 335. Again, awaiting a test drive of the M to really guage if my two cents have any merit- just like everyone else.
ive driven a 335i.. sports springs. to me the differerence is clear as night and day.
and as stock would never swap it for my M3 e46.
it was dull and lifeless.. coundnt belive how boring it was. you just cant feel the road or sense of speed.
good in a straight line though... if you like the power delivery style
give me a high reving NA engine anyday.
make it a v8 426bhp engine and im sold!
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      03-15-2007, 08:26 AM   #14
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I am glad someone else pointed out that the 335 is not actually dynoing 330+ RWHP; more like 312+. Even as decent as the 335 is, its performance will not be close to the M. It's a somewhat fast sport sedan; geared more towards the the person that wants a spirited driver for his/her daily use.

When can you get so much BANG for your dollar as with the E92 M relative to the E92? An equally equipped M will likey cost $15-$18 more than the non M, but look at what you will gain. The list is too long and repetitive to cite. If anyone came to a 335 owner (assuming that the M was not available) and said, this is what I will do for your 335 for $18k, you'll have a warranty and a strong resale to boot; most purists would do it without hesitation. Stop trying to compare an average sedan to a sports car wrapped in a coupe package.

There are sometimes that one can not justify the additional cost of a car to another relative to the gains; i.e. I had that difficulty with the 997 turbo relative to the 997S. As fantastic of a car the 997 turbo is, it a great leap to spend the extra $45,000k+. You could buy a 335 for your daily driver with the dough!
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      03-15-2007, 11:30 AM   #15
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I agree with Manz and Devo............you can't compare the E92 335 with the upcoming M3........ I had an E46 M3 and it was and still is a far more entertaining drive than the new 335i (and no Vishnu kit can take that away).................

I do understand your need for stealth though and that's one area that this car will not be in....That 400HP+ V8 will be heard for blocks!!!:rocks:

Trust me.......you don't ever want to find yourself saying..............

..............."I coulda had a V8".......
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      03-15-2007, 05:39 PM   #16
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I understand it can be hard to look at this subject objectively. Myself included in the mix because there are individuals who are just PURE M enthusiasts and the alphabet seems to end at the letter M. Thats fine but at the same time one shouldnt be blinded by pure faith alone. I am not comparing the 335i to the new m3, there will be a world of difference between the two. But the e46 and the e92, the e92 poses a challenge to the extinct e46. Its those owners who cry louder than any when this discussion comes up. The last gen m3 probably still has the e92, but i think at no other juncture has a "reg" 3 given M owners so much to think about.
I just want to look at it objectively, M3 is a hot car in no way am I trying to start another E92 335 vs E92 M3 thread. Ill probably be getting one in a couple yrs.
THe only reason I state the above is that Ive noticed while driving that the e92 gets more attention from e46 M drivers on the road than other bmw drivers. Ive been tailed by atleast two M's trying to see what the hype is all about. I think the line isnt as clearly defined as it used to be.
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      03-15-2007, 06:52 PM   #17
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Hi everyone - I'm new to all of this but it was really interesting reading all of your comments - first off, I think we should hand it to BMW for making some of the world's phenomenal cars that can be used as daily drivers - I've had my 330ci for 4 years now and I'm aching to get my hands on the new M3- but one thing is for sure is that I still get goosebumps everytime I get into my car because I love the feel, drive and legendary handling that BMW is so renowned for. I dare not venture too deeply into this 335i/E46 M3 discussion, but all I want to add is that redardless, at the end of the day, we purchase our cars for multiple reasons and as long as we're happy, that's all that counts...Having said that, the new M3 will definitely rock!
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      03-19-2007, 02:58 AM   #18
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDYANKEE View Post
Hello, folks!

I am new to the M3Post boards, but am active on the E90Post boards, as I just recently purchased an E92 335. I was considering buying another E92, but in the form of an M3, but upon talking to my SA at BMW and a few people "in the know," they said that if I was going to buy the M3 as a speed upgrade, it wouldn't be worth the money.
They cite the new V8 engine's making the E92 M3 452lbs heavier than the 335, and while there is a great amount of difference in power (300hp vs. 400something), the actual power of the 335 is greater than BMW reported. In 0-60, the 335 is reported at 5.5 seconds from BMW, but car and driver tested it at 4.9.
I have some friends in the car business, so I had them throw my car on a dyno, and to my surprise, my "300hp" engine was actually putting down closer to 340hp. As it was explained to me, the 335 actually isnt that much slower than the new M3 is, but it was undercut on its reported power and speed in order to keep the difference in power/speed between the 335 and M3 bigger than it actually is.
Apparantly, BMW was iffy on having the 335 and M3's power and speed differences being so small, especially since their previous 330 and M3 difference was so substantial. What do you guys think? I am still torn on it...on the streets the difference between the 335 and the M3 is looking to be marginal, on the track I am sure te M3 would eat the 335 alive, but I don't track my cars. Anyone?

Where do I start?...

ONE: "M" owners are a different breed of BMW drivers and they all know that. Until you own one, you will not know what I'm talking about. Buy your E92. If that means you have to sell your 335...then do it.

TWO: The HP concern between the 335 and the new M is STOOPID! Why? Because anyone who could afford to by an E92 M and chose NOT to did it for a reason. Either they like the "softness" of the 335 and the power was sufficient for them. Or they are not a true "M" owner/driver and the appeal of the Flagship 3 series doesn't matter to them.

THREE: The people who can NOT afford the E92 M had to "settle" so to speak with the 335 until they will be able to do so. Until then, they will have to look in awe at every "M" badge that passes them by. If they have the money to upgrade in aftermarket mods to give their 335 an extra 120+ hp needed to oust the "M"... then they would be stuck with a very fast "335" which is not what they are after in the first place.. it's the "M" prestige. Sure, they could slap on a "M" badge and be clowned for it... I've seen it and it's the gheyest for of flattery and it makes the owner of the 330/335 look like a real dumbass.

FOUR: The people you have to worry about modding a 335 tt to beat your NA E92 are the street racers that at this current time can not even afford the new 335. They will have to wait 5+ years for the car to drop in price on the USED market for the price to drop enough they can get their hands on one. THEN they will get to work on heavily modding it.

BOTTOM LINE: It's going to be ALONG Time before you will be passed by the new 335. You act like as soon as you get into one, the guy in the modded 335 is going to laugh as you as you eat his dust. FAR From the truth. Theres internet reality and then there is the real world.

If your a true "enthusiast"..... get your "M". If not... enjoy your 335.

JMHO.

Tim
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      03-19-2007, 08:11 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by teezboo View Post
If your a true "enthusiast"..... get your "M". If not... enjoy your 335.
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      03-19-2007, 06:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E36325is View Post
Lack of LSD, skinnier tires, alu bonnet, also the regular 335i engine is dynoed to be around 310-312hp never 330 hp (ask them to show u the dyno results), unless u have chipped it or something. Also if DSG is real then it will eat the 335 alive.

Ofcourse the difference won't be night and day, not until u revv them the 335i will run out of steam above 5k rpm and the M3 pulls til 8krpm!
You made some pretty ignorant comments here... I am in no way saying the new m3 wont destroy a 335, because it will... but your wrong about the 335.

they ALWAYS dyno in the same range as the e46 m3... so your telling me the e46 was "over" rated? check out all the dynos in the vishnu procede threads, there are dozens, all showing BASELINE runs of 265-285 whp, thats the same power to the wheels as the e46 m3. (not to mention they show tuned runs of up to 360WHP and 390WTQ... at the wheels...)

your comment about the 8k rpm is true... but the 335 is more powerful at lower and mid-range engine speeds, and it makes up for some of this, and allows the stock cars to run pretty close (e46 m3 and 335). its a drivers race.

Now the new m3... thats a different story...

I bought the 335 for a fast but not harsh daily driver, NOT to be as good as an m3, becuase its NOT AN M, period. M is a different class.
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      03-19-2007, 10:07 PM   #21
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If the M3 is even 100 lbs heavier than the 335 I'll be shocked. There's no way they've taken too many weight savings measures for it to be much heavier if at all.
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      03-20-2007, 01:25 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skierman64 View Post
If the M3 is even 100 lbs heavier than the 335 I'll be shocked. There's no way they've taken too many weight savings measures for it to be much heavier if at all.
I totally agree, however one would have to assume that the V8 will will obviously be heavier, the exhaust will be heavier, etc. It's just a matter of how much weight will be saved by the cf roof and other light weight body materials.
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