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      03-23-2011, 06:23 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
Well, again mazda 3 speed is a little hatchback with much less power. Evora is also a small car. Same goes for Carrera S. In fact, you see what happens when they put a little bigger engine and silhuette of rear seats.. Compared to Cayman S weight goes up ~150lbs. Now think of a bigger engine, and proper rear seats... Sure it doesn't justify 3700lbs, but still we can't compare M3 to Cayman.

WRX STI is again smaller car. But yes, all these examples suggest that BMW should be able to make M3 100-150lbs lighter.
the point of listing those cars wasn't to show power/performance output, but to show that keeping the weight down in a comparably setup car is very possible with today's standards/regulations and there is no reason bmw can't do it too.

for what it's worth, the differences in engine weights might make up for a 50-75lbs difference at most when compared to the compact, all aluminum v8 in the M3.
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      03-23-2011, 06:48 PM   #90
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this is simply incorrect. there are plenty of cars out there that can, or could fit this description. that comment makes it seem like it's an impossible feat -- it's not. i think the point is missed, in that there doesn't need to be a car out there that does this already in order for bmw to do it...that has not stopped bmw in the past and shouldn't now.

so let's consider each aspect: faster, lighter, cheaper

faster: how about a GT-R? though not lighter, i don't think the enthusiasts would cry much if it was a bmw invention. or maybe a corvette. or a cayman S (while underpowered, porsche could have easily put a more powerful engine in it if it weren't for the 911), or even a mustang GT (pains me to even mention it in the same sentence). faster is typically a pretty simple equation: more power, less weight. power is easy to come by, especially with a turbo setup, so this brings us to weight...

lighter: did you know that even a prius only weighs 3042lbs?! yes, it's only got a 4 cylinder engine in it, but it has a bunch of batteries packed into it! somehow, i don't think they built that car out of carbon fiber/exotic materials to get the weight down on it and believe me, that car has a TON of safety gizmos in it! how about a corvette (3200lbs), or let's consider that a cayman S only weighs 2976 lbs and, as far as i know, it's not built of anything particularly special and even if it was, we're talking about a 500lbs difference over the M3 for not much more money!!! the cayman also has a bunch of safety features along with creature comforts you would expect from a bmw. the reason the cayman S is so expensive is because you're paying for the special porsche emblem on the car...bringing us to price.

cheaper: in my opinion the M3 is definitely not cheap, but let's assume that its current price is to be considered "cheap". cars like the GT-R are in that price range...need i say more? (remember the GT-R comes with a lot of standard features from the factory, unlike the M3). how about the CTS-V, or again the mustang GT that seriously undercuts the M3's price tag.

what i'm trying to convey is that it's a conscious choice by bmw to limit its product direction. they certainly have the ability to build what their enthusiasts want so badly, but they choose to build something that merely "keeps up with the competition", barely beating it in most cases, while increasing sales, and relying on getting people in the door by holding that prestigious badge in front of your face.
GT-R is 20% more expensive than an M3 in the UK... Cayman does not have the practicality of the M3, Mustang is cheap because it's built for the USDM - do they even sell it around the world? - same with the CTS-V - same with the Corvette?... does the M3 out perform it's closest competitors, the RS5 and the C63? usually..... Standard Cayman can be outperformed by 1 series...

last but not least.... NUMBERS DO NOT TELL YOU THE WHOLE STORY OF A CAR.

If the car you want is not an M3.. then fine, I have no problem with that... buy a different car.. but don't piss and moan because M aren't making exactly the car you want, to a magical specification you've plucked out of the air..

It would be nice if BMW gave the transparency to see where weight came from.. but for now, it's safe to assume that they know more about it than we do, and if the best they can offer is not good enough for you, then go and buy a f'in Prius, or GT-R, or Corvette..
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      03-23-2011, 06:58 PM   #91
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. You know what? I'm not one of those "N.A." fans here. Porsche has done it, GT-R has done, so can you. No problem. The problem is you are cutting corners and modifying existing cars to cut costs in R&D because now you figured out that you don't need to keep the hardcore crowd happy.
ITS A F****** 3 SERIES BMW!!!!!

People seem to expect BMW to re-invent this car as something it is not... this is the 'affordable' high performance variant of the companies bread & butter car... not just a track day monster, or an exclusive vehicle for those that can afford Hypercars.... Consider what the E30, E36 and E46 M3's actually were, in practice and in spirit, and tell me where the E92 falls down in comparison!
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      03-23-2011, 07:04 PM   #92
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mazda 3 speed (3005 lbs), lotus evora (3050 lbs), porsche 911 Carrera S (3131 lbs), subaru WRX STI (3373lbs - AWD even!).

i could probably list more, but i assume this is good enough. i definitely agree on the 100-150lbs lighter M3. that alone would have made a HUGE difference.
none of these cars has a V8. Suddenly we forget about the outstanding engine.
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      03-23-2011, 07:24 PM   #93
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Yeah, but even with a V8, 3,500 lbs, or even a bit less, shouldn't be too difficult to achieve.
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      03-23-2011, 07:51 PM   #94
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ITS A F****** 3 SERIES BMW!!!!!

People seem to expect BMW to re-invent this car as something it is not... this is the 'affordable' high performance variant of the companies bread & butter car... not just a track day monster, or an exclusive vehicle for those that can afford Hypercars.... Consider what the E30, E36 and E46 M3's actually were, in practice and in spirit, and tell me where the E92 falls down in comparison!
1. too large
2. 7 series steering effort & feel
3. lack of edginess especially on the street.
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      03-23-2011, 07:52 PM   #95
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Its fine to compare to the caymen but its a whole different price point. Do you think people buying 1 series or 1m's are people affording porsche's-not usually. If they used all the cool lightweight stuff they would have to charge a premium and defeat the purpose of the 1m which was an ENTRY level m car. Nobody will pay 70k for a 1m, 100k for m3 etc. Down the line when carbon fiber and such is much more largely produced and they have infrastructure for it, a much lower cost will be offered but they are 5 years from that happening atleast

Korea pay 100k for M3
Aus pays 120k for 1M and 160k for M3...

*estimated
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      03-23-2011, 07:56 PM   #96
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GT-R is 20% more expensive than an M3 in the UK... Cayman does not have the practicality of the M3, Mustang is cheap because it's built for the USDM - do they even sell it around the world? - same with the CTS-V - same with the Corvette?... does the M3 out perform it's closest competitors, the RS5 and the C63? usually..... Standard Cayman can be outperformed by 1 series...
if i remember right, you have to spend around $75k on an M3 to get the features of an equivalent base GT-R ($85k) and the GT-R is still worlds faster. $10k can look like a mighty small difference when you consider that.

Not sure if the mustang, corvette, or CTS-V are sold elsewhere, but that doesn't mean much when the US is the biggest market for ford, cadillac, chevrolet, and bmw.


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none of these cars has a V8. Suddenly we forget about the outstanding engine.
that's a different discussion altogether.

the next M3 won't have a V8 either; it will probably have a recycled turbo engine from some other car in the lineup.

i love the idea of a high revving, naturally aspirated M engine, but that's not in the cards. i might be missing your point on bringing up the v8 though. if you are talking in terms of weight, the V8 is light; lighter than lots of other engines with fewer cylinders.

Last edited by jworms; 03-23-2011 at 08:06 PM.
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      03-23-2011, 08:30 PM   #97
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Affordable, I guess, is not the right word. I meant it is over priced I got a decent deal and all, but even than it is over priced. It is more like a 50k msrp car than a 58k.
All 3ers are overpriced.
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      03-23-2011, 08:45 PM   #98
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All 3ers are overpriced.
I think it's safe to say that most, if not all BMW's, are overpriced...
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      03-24-2011, 01:20 AM   #99
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I would love to see a bill of materials for an M3 with the weights of each component... who here really knows where the weight in an M3 is?
Not exactly what you want but close is available at BMWfans.info!
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      03-24-2011, 01:22 AM   #100
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I think what's said is good feedback to Scott. This is his job. He should have thick skin for it. Remember he's giving out these information not from kindness of his heart but his superior approved these timely, concerted, release of information. This isn't inside information. This is marketing via social networking that generates a feeling we are getting inside tips. It really is no different from TV ads.
Touche, well observed and well stated.
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      03-24-2011, 01:26 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
This - "bullshit" + "others do CF" + "just get lighter" + "BMW doesn't care" + etc. - is all so entertaining and ... fantastical.

>> The BMW goal: leading edge technology, leading edge handling, leading edge safety, owner-friendliness, speed, affordability.

>> The discontents' goal in this thread: make it like ... (insert "Lotus" , "Porsche" ,"Audi" , whatever). That is, make it faster, lighter, cheaper, and way ahead of competition.

Someone post three concrete, currently-available solutions to meet BOTH goals now, in a real-world implementation that BMW or any manufacturer could have done.

Finally a sensible post!


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Originally Posted by Matski View Post
+100


People seem to have narrow minded ideas of what M should be, without appreciating that there are reasons why most of these decisions are made.
+3


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I think many of the haters couldn't afford the price tag that would inevitably come with an M3 lightweight... How many of you guys are GTS owners?
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      03-24-2011, 01:32 AM   #102
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You want to give us a car that's state of the art? Be my guest. You want to build the ultimate driving machine? It's going to take more than slapping turbos on existing engines and doubling exhaust pipes. You need to go back to where you came from, sit down with your engineers, and build the next M3 from ground up like you did with the E46 and E92. Wasn't there a youtube video that showed bunch of BMW engineers and gave an overview of the M program and said 90% of the parts in M3 is different than the regular 3 series? I wonder what that percentage is for 1M or the new M5.
No M car has been from the ground up ever. The formula that has been used and will continue to be used is modification of the existing series car. Even the engines share quite a lot in common with "series" engines. The E9X M3 and E60 M5 are the exceptions with regards to a truly original engine and these are gems indeed.

Now that being said they are highly modified versions with all of the key systems that make a car perform being designed just for the M car. However, the percentages common will go up as this is a known major corporate wide effort at BMW - more commonality. This is the the biggest reason we will likely get an I-6 turbo in the F3X M3.

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One last thing, I did mention above the same thing. I think everyone here appreciates what scott does, including me. Although it might seem like everyone is attacking scott, by no means that is what we intend to do. Unfortunately he is the only person BMW uses to communicate with us, hence this is the outcome. So my apologies to him if I anyway offended him.
Don't want to get too much into "meta-posting" but I've heard both stories on Scott. 1. He works for BMW and 2. That BMW has officially acknowledged that he DOES NOT work for them. He obviously has some insights most of us don't.
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      03-24-2011, 02:16 AM   #103
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To support its return to the Tokyo autoshow in December after BMW’s 2009Hiatus. (the consensus is we will still be there , despite the tragedy)

BMW M will showcase on something that is outgoing but a current M car.
But is an Engineering Concept that will show the possibilities of how BMW M
can progress in relation to a full lightweight concept in bodyshell and chassis in the future.
Normally it's key principle is of course Motorsport, but it is about giving you an insight into future application within a road car.

It is to showcase BMW Innovation but as well as materials used in today's M cars such as Aluminium , Magnesium , Thermo-Plastic and Carbon Fibre in key areas , but also using the ideas in greater capacity and the technology from the BMWi programme which is why BMW has invested in it's future . Mass volume production of CFRP will be able to filter through to BMW’s core product strategy.

It is more of an “Engineering and Performance showcase” than a visual one. Similiar to the Concept 1er Tii @ Tokyo 2007. it is not the 1M.

It is not for production but to show a "bespoke" concept to show how things will progress in the future.

Exciting that you are able to begin using more and more advanced intelligent lightweight materials in (unique) applications that likely are fitting for the material properties and benefits they give. Looking very forward to your 'advanced materials showcase car' in Tokyo.

Thanks for your posting, viel mals dank und mehr freude am fahren...
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      03-24-2011, 06:33 AM   #104
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Can we cut to the chase?

After BMW has informed us all of what the future holds or may hold for ///M, what specifically will be the compelling factors to purchase an ///M over models offered by manufacturers who produce models to compete with a specific ///M model for yours and my business?

In the case of the next generation M3, what will it bring to the table that would compel any of us to pass on all other BMW identified competitors?
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      03-24-2011, 08:48 AM   #105
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this is simply incorrect ...
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Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Easy enough.
Respectfully - none of these and similar responses provide one defined, quantifiable suggestion of satisfying the demands made here. There was not one specific example of adding/changing/implementing any particular aspect of the product that reaches the goals and is marketable.

"Faster and lighter" are difficult and contradict the "cheaper" goal.
Example: the very first (and non-specific) suggestion is self-disclaimed at the start with "though not lighter."
That's exactly the point.

So then we have ...
"prius only weighs 3042lbs" - but it doesn't do "fast;"
"how about a corvette (3200lbs)" - but it doesn't have a back seat, and a truly competitive model is expensive;
"let's consider that a cayman S only weighs 2976 lbs" - but it doesn't have a back seat, it doesn't handle like a BMW and it is expensive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jworms View Post
"How about the CTS-V, or again the mustang GT that seriously undercuts the M3's price tag"
Yes, and forum members dis them as unacceptable because they are not BMW's.
And have you driven them? Would you spend your money on them instead of a BMW or a Porsche? For the purpose of saving $10,000? And absorb the higher depreciation? How many people here, or you, with a car enthusiast's mindset have actually purchased one instead of a BMW?

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Originally Posted by jworms View Post
an equivalent base GT-R ($85k) and the GT-R is still worlds faster. $10k can look like a mighty small difference when you consider that.
This contradicts the demand that BMW is too expensive - it goes in the wrong direction!!

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Originally Posted by Serious View Post
More aluminum
Add cost, contradict "cheaper."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
Quit sharing chassis & major components between models
Add cost, contradict "cheaper."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serious View Post
No fully electronic power steering.
Add cost, contradict "cheaper" and "lighter."

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Originally Posted by jworms View Post
bmw ... certainly (has) the ability to build what their enthusiasts want so badly
How? What specific product do we want? That will enhance or at least not hurt the bottom line? With the "we" being more than a narrow slice of a small audience for any given feature emphasis?

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Originally Posted by jworms View Post
They choose to build something that merely "keeps up with the competition", barely beating it in most cases
How do we see BMW making a conscious effort to limit itself? For what purpose? When virtually all reviews of competitive products still use BMW's products as the sole common benchmark?

Critiquing products is very easy - sit back and pick. Coming up with real alternatives that are usable is very difficult, and hasn't happened in this Forum very much.

I'm not defending BMW. I'm looking for support for alternatives.

Last edited by hlmiii; 03-24-2011 at 08:57 AM.
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      03-24-2011, 10:49 AM   #106
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full carbon fiber tub cars for anything 5 series and above??
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      03-24-2011, 02:47 PM   #107
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I agree with most of what you said here. While BMWs are far from being anything close to perfect, they do a good job at still retaining some edge but also are widely appreciated cars. Thats exactly what theyve become and likely wont change.

Cayman may not handle like a BMW, but its handling is far superior. Just saying.

BMW remains a benchmark WITHIN it direct competition, but that is slowly slipping these days. The F10 5 series is not at the top of the mid size sedan game anymore, and they continually move away from the reasons they used to make such good cars.
yes, exactly.


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Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
Respectfully - none of these and similar responses provide one defined, quantifiable suggestion of satisfying the demands made here. There was not one specific example of adding/changing/implementing any particular aspect of the product that reaches the goals and is marketable.

"Faster and lighter" are difficult and contradict the "cheaper" goal.
Example: the very first (and non-specific) suggestion is self-disclaimed at the start with "though not lighter."
That's exactly the point.

So then we have ...
"prius only weighs 3042lbs" - but it doesn't do "fast;"
"how about a corvette (3200lbs)" - but it doesn't have a back seat, and a truly competitive model is expensive;
"let's consider that a cayman S only weighs 2976 lbs" - but it doesn't have a back seat, it doesn't handle like a BMW and it is expensive.


Yes, and forum members dis them as unacceptable because they are not BMW's.
And have you driven them? Would you spend your money on them instead of a BMW or a Porsche? For the purpose of saving $10,000? And absorb the higher depreciation? How many people here, or you, with a car enthusiast's mindset have actually purchased one instead of a BMW?

This contradicts the demand that BMW is too expensive - it goes in the wrong direction!!

Add cost, contradict "cheaper."

Add cost, contradict "cheaper."

Add cost, contradict "cheaper" and "lighter."

How? What specific product do we want? That will enhance or at least not hurt the bottom line? With the "we" being more than a narrow slice of a small audience for any given feature emphasis?

How do we see BMW making a conscious effort to limit itself? For what purpose? When virtually all reviews of competitive products still use BMW's products as the sole common benchmark?

Critiquing products is very easy - sit back and pick. Coming up with real alternatives that are usable is very difficult, and hasn't happened in this Forum very much.

I'm not defending BMW. I'm looking for support for alternatives.
i was going to try to respond to each quote individually, but that may become tedious at this point

i do want to reiterate that finding a currently produced car to fit all three categories is not necessary to prove that it can be done by bmw. i merely showed that it's not impossible to do. gotta think big picture, not get stuck on the details. i think that focusing on other cars in the market is one of the problems plaguing bmw presently and it conflicts with bmw's past stance of innovation, advancement, and leading.

it used to be that bmw was the de-facto performance car before you get into exotic territory. how do you think bmw got that reputation and how do you think that compares to their current mindset? the M brand epitomizes this leadership role and has defined the bmw brand. this is great for bmw because their customers know what bmw stands for and will stay loyal, but the question is, how long will that last when they are not living up to this definition? especially when cars typically considered "lesser brands" are upping their game to compete on the same level.

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Yes, and forum members dis them as unacceptable because they are not BMW's.
And have you driven them? Would you spend your money on them instead of a BMW or a Porsche? For the purpose of saving $10,000? And absorb the higher depreciation? How many people here, or you, with a car enthusiast's mindset have actually purchased one instead of a BMW?
how long until this changes? how long before people realize bmw isn't the company they once were? take a look at the numerous threads/articles/reviews comparing a BMW to <insert some "off-brand" car here>. you would never see that kind of talk 20-30 years ago with the E30/E36 models...

again, it's not that bmw can't make a car that enthusiasts will love (as i tried to document with my previous post), it's that they won't for whatever reason. bmw is no longer the "ultimate driving machine" (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...-with-the-joy/). what excites you about bmw now? it's becoming harder and harder for me to come up with responses.
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      03-24-2011, 03:04 PM   #108
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They lied.
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      03-24-2011, 04:48 PM   #109
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They lied.

The folks in Munich remember all too well. They simply decided that BMW is going to live by a different set of rules now that it's grown up; kinda like the kid that leaves home. There will be lessons of life and business too be learned. Wish'em luck.
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      03-25-2011, 07:29 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jworms View Post
i was going to try to respond to each quote individually, but that may become tedious at this point
Ha. Yeah, I noticed a start yesterday ....

As far as BMW then vs. now in terms of the competition, I would agree that twenty years ago in the next-to-exotic category, there was virtually nothing else. And today it's definitely not like that - there is viable competition. But it's not because BMW has fallen behind. It's because Audi, Ford, Cadillac, Lexus and others have drastically reconfigured their operations to jump into BMW's game. They saw a good thing, a market, and ... learned from, targeted and copied BMW.

Maybe even more significantly - there are FAR more people with far more money for this segment now than there were twenty years ago. The numbers/percentages of upper incomes has ballooned since the early 1980's. So a segment that was previously filled by BMW opened up and was entered by others.

I'd say that just because there is serious competition does not mean that BMW has fallen off. It's because others have taken the foundation that BMW pioneered and entered the territory.

And once again ... I am looking for (now, even) ONE concrete idea of how BMW could do what some here want - satisfy our contradictory demands and criticisms. And make it viable in the marketplace.

I have not seen anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazybimmer View Post
So what do we do?
What you want, obviously.
Interesting: the fact that you find yourself raising the question is verification that there isn't an readily identifiable better choice!
Meaning that BMW is still at the top, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jworms View Post
what excites you about bmw now?
Good question, especially because over two hours ago I walked into my garage. It houses a Gallardo, a Diablo, (an SV is off site), a 135, and an E60 M5. Which to drive????

I choose the M5. I WANTED to get into the seat, push the button, grab the wheel, and feel it at speed during my 10-mile trip into the office.

What excites me about this? It feels right. Like nothing else. There is a sense of complete confidence, complete coherence, engineering brilliance, design experience, and integration of all of the car's aspects that is simply unmatched.

There are cars that go faster, that are lighter, that are more cutting edge technologically, that have some item that is arguably better or cooler. But there just isn't anything out there that hits all of the targets as closely and assuredly as a BMW.

BTW - a good discussion. Thanks.
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