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      03-23-2011, 09:48 AM   #67
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Well, BMW had the M coupe (z series not the 1) but they kept discontinuing the only thing closest to a purist dream.
They discontinue them because no one buys them.
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      03-23-2011, 09:59 AM   #68
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+1. There was a lot of talk about weight reduction for the M3 and all of the weight savings over the last car. Sure the engine was lighter and many other COMPONENTS are lighter but the damn car was heavier, quite a lot heavier.
+2.

I've said it before but its apropos here as well . . . the new M5 will provide a good barometer of M's real commitment to weight management. If the new M5 is heavier than the current series 5er and heavier than the E60 M5, then all of this fanfare over an "engineering concept" is just grandstanding.
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      03-23-2011, 10:31 AM   #69
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+2.

I've said it before but its apropos here as well . . . the new M5 will provide a good barometer of M's real commitment to weight management. If the new M5 is heavier than the current series 5er and heavier than the E60 M5, then all of this fanfare over an "engineering concept" is just grandstanding.
Didn't someone say 4400 lbs for the F10 M5?

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      03-23-2011, 11:29 AM   #70
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Yes, I know...i owned both a Z4M coupe and Z4M roadster.

It was FAR from a perfect car though, albeit the sportiest car bmw has made in some time and still not up to par with a cayman S (owned one of them too).
Agreed. I loved my Z4M. But I know BMW could've made the Z4 M a much much better car. But they choose not to. I guess otherwise it would be faster than E9x M3. Also what would be the point? They would spent much more money in R&D, but still not sell as much..
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      03-23-2011, 11:44 AM   #71
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Hey guys, we are all enthusiasts here and are passionate about cars and our BMWs. But please, try not to bash on SCOTT who shares a world of inside information with us. It may not be information you like, but having a BMW insider forum member is awesome. Let's keep it civilized and not shoot the messenger... Especially when he's telling us they are trying to make things lighter lol.

Fans: "Too heavyyyy!!"

BMW: "good news, we're working on weight reduction thru CF and other materials. We'll show you soon"

Fans: "lies! You don't know shit about light weight! How dare you try to cater to our needs! Boo!!!"
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      03-23-2011, 11:49 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
This - "bullshit" + "others do CF" + "just get lighter" + "BMW doesn't care" + etc. - is all so entertaining and ... fantastical.

>> The BMW goal: leading edge technology, leading edge handling, leading edge safety, owner-friendliness, speed, affordability.

>> The discontents' goal in this thread: make it like ... (insert "Lotus" , "Porsche" ,"Audi" , whatever). That is, make it faster, lighter, cheaper, and way ahead of competition.

Someone post three concrete, currently-available solutions to meet BOTH goals now, in a real-world implementation that BMW or any manufacturer could have done.
I don't find M3 affordable.
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      03-23-2011, 11:57 AM   #73
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Maybe it's just me but if the Vette doesn't pass crash standards, then it wouldn't be in production simply because it would need to pass the crash test in order to be on the road.
no, they only have to pass when they first come out, according to the standards of the day. they dont have to re-take the test every year. and the gov't adds new heavy safey crap every year...so the vette has the safety standards for 2005. the E92 most likely goes above and beyond those standards which were for 2007 when it was launched.

they are two completely different cars anyways....designed for different purposes...the E92 is a jack of all trades....the vette is a focused sports car...it doesnt have to share its chasis with a 2L diesel economy/sport/lux sedan.
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      03-23-2011, 01:21 PM   #74
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I don't find M3 affordable.
Same. I'll say it's borderline affordable. Start putting in options and you're looking at 90k-100k CDN easy.
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      03-23-2011, 01:22 PM   #75
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I want to see a lightweight composite frame (spaceframe?) !!
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      03-23-2011, 01:28 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
I don't find M3 affordable.
You must have found it affordable - you just purchased one! With $8,000.00 of adds.

(not punking you )
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      03-23-2011, 01:49 PM   #77
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You must have found it affordable - you just purchased one! With $8,000.00 of adds.

(not punking you )
Affordable, I guess, is not the right word. I meant it is over priced I got a decent deal and all, but even than it is over priced. It is more like a 50k msrp car than a 58k.
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      03-23-2011, 02:06 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
Hey guys, we are all enthusiasts here and are passionate about cars and our BMWs. But please, try not to bash on SCOTT who shares a world of inside information with us. It may not be information you like, but having a BMW insider forum member is awesome. Let's keep it civilized and not shoot the messenger... Especially when he's telling us they are trying to make things lighter lol.

Fans: "Too heavyyyy!!"

BMW: "good news, we're working on weight reduction thru CF and other materials. We'll show you soon"

Fans: "lies! You don't know shit about light weight! How dare you try to cater to our needs! Boo!!!"
I think what's said is good feedback to Scott. This is his job. He should have thick skin for it. Remember he's giving out these information not from kindness of his heart but his superior approved these timely, concerted, release of information. This isn't inside information. This is marketing via social networking that generates a feeling we are getting inside tips. It really is no different from TV ads.
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      03-23-2011, 03:04 PM   #79
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It is over priced
lol
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      03-23-2011, 03:39 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
This - "bullshit" + "others do CF" + "just get lighter" + "BMW doesn't care" + etc. - is all so entertaining and ... fantastical.

>> The BMW goal: leading edge technology, leading edge handling, leading edge safety, owner-friendliness, speed, affordability.

>> The discontents' goal in this thread: make it like ... (insert "Lotus" , "Porsche" ,"Audi" , whatever). That is, make it faster, lighter, cheaper, and way ahead of competition.

Someone post three concrete, currently-available solutions to meet BOTH goals now, in a real-world implementation that BMW or any manufacturer could have done.
Easy enough.

1. Smaller cars, the 3 series has become way too large, so return it back to the size of the the e36 or e46. Lower cost, increased performance & efficiency.

2. More aluminum, competitors are offering similar models at similar prices with an increased amount of aluminum structure & components. Offers the possibility of a generous weight loss vs steel without the increased costs of composites.

3. Quit sharing chassis & major components between models, there is no reason for the f10 5 series to weigh 400 odd pounds more than the e60 5 series & the new mercedes E class. This weight gain is purely down to the f10 being based on f01 7 series chassis.

4. No fully electronic power steering. It has no feel and doesn't even provide a huge gain in efficiency anyways.
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      03-23-2011, 04:16 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
This - "bullshit" + "others do CF" + "just get lighter" + "BMW doesn't care" + etc. - is all so entertaining and ... fantastical.

>> The BMW goal: leading edge technology, leading edge handling, leading edge safety, owner-friendliness, speed, affordability.

>> The discontents' goal in this thread: make it like ... (insert "Lotus" , "Porsche" ,"Audi" , whatever). That is, make it faster, lighter, cheaper, and way ahead of competition.

Someone post three concrete, currently-available solutions to meet BOTH goals now, in a real-world implementation that BMW or any manufacturer could have done.
this is simply incorrect. there are plenty of cars out there that can, or could fit this description. that comment makes it seem like it's an impossible feat -- it's not. i think the point is missed, in that there doesn't need to be a car out there that does this already in order for bmw to do it...that has not stopped bmw in the past and shouldn't now.

so let's consider each aspect: faster, lighter, cheaper

faster: how about a GT-R? though not lighter, i don't think the enthusiasts would cry much if it was a bmw invention. or maybe a corvette. or a cayman S (while underpowered, porsche could have easily put a more powerful engine in it if it weren't for the 911), or even a mustang GT (pains me to even mention it in the same sentence). faster is typically a pretty simple equation: more power, less weight. power is easy to come by, especially with a turbo setup, so this brings us to weight...

lighter: did you know that even a prius only weighs 3042lbs?! yes, it's only got a 4 cylinder engine in it, but it has a bunch of batteries packed into it! somehow, i don't think they built that car out of carbon fiber/exotic materials to get the weight down on it and believe me, that car has a TON of safety gizmos in it! how about a corvette (3200lbs), or let's consider that a cayman S only weighs 2976 lbs and, as far as i know, it's not built of anything particularly special and even if it was, we're talking about a 500lbs difference over the M3 for not much more money!!! the cayman also has a bunch of safety features along with creature comforts you would expect from a bmw. the reason the cayman S is so expensive is because you're paying for the special porsche emblem on the car...bringing us to price.

cheaper: in my opinion the M3 is definitely not cheap, but let's assume that its current price is to be considered "cheap". cars like the GT-R are in that price range...need i say more? (remember the GT-R comes with a lot of standard features from the factory, unlike the M3). how about the CTS-V, or again the mustang GT that seriously undercuts the M3's price tag.

what i'm trying to convey is that it's a conscious choice by bmw to limit its product direction. they certainly have the ability to build what their enthusiasts want so badly, but they choose to build something that merely "keeps up with the competition", barely beating it in most cases, while increasing sales, and relying on getting people in the door by holding that prestigious badge in front of your face.
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      03-23-2011, 04:32 PM   #82
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lighter: did you know that even a prius only weighs 3042lbs?! yes, it's only got a 4 cylinder engine in it, but it has a bunch of batteries packed into it! somehow, i don't think they built that car out of carbon fiber/exotic materials to get the weight down on it and believe me, that car has a TON of safety gizmos in it! how about a corvette (3200lbs), or let's consider that a cayman S only weighs 2976 lbs and, as far as i know, it's not built of anything particularly special and even if it was, we're talking about a 500lbs difference over the M3 for not much more money!!! the cayman also has a bunch of safety features along with creature comforts you would expect from a bmw. the reason the cayman S is so expensive is because you're paying for the special porsche emblem on the car...bringing us to price.
Prius example is no good. It is much smaller and has smaller engine. Sure it has 2 engines, but I bet they still don't weigh more than a V8 put together. Keep in mind, more power requires stronger drive train too, which is heavier. Even tires/wheels. The 4 wheels&tires in M3 will be around 200-250lbs. I don't think that's the case for Prius with its comical tires.

Corvette has a lot of plastic on it, and lack rear seats. Cayman is much smaller than M3, and does not have back seats.. It is not a fair comparison. If you stretch the Cayman and put 2 more seats at the back, the difference will be much less.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend BMW. But I want to keep this fair. I believe without too much effort, BMW would've make the M3 100-150lbs lighter. And that would be more than enough.
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      03-23-2011, 04:38 PM   #83
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Bottom line is that is that BMW M builds impressive sedans and coupes, they are not sports cars, and while they can run in the company of more dedicated machinery, they are based on mass production cars, practical yet capable of competitive speed and handling. That said they dropped the ball on the 1M, since they will build so few it would have been great to make a statement with a really lightweight car with a special engine, instead they cut corners to make it profitable for the price point they wanted. Of course it's a business but I have a feeling the Nissan GT-R may be a statement car and doesn't leave much of a profit if any at it's price point. BMW could have built a true halo car to show it can still build very light and quick cars with decent gas mileage and leading edge of technology. I would have made it for about $65k, with the same production numbers, given it a 2990 lbs weight and no less than 380 hp, and named it M-CSL a true original. Yes it would cannibalize a few M sales but would set up the next gen 1M as a mini version with a lower price point to make some profit. But then I don't run the M Division.
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      03-23-2011, 04:44 PM   #84
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Bottom line is that is that BMW M builds impressive sedans and coupes, they are not sports cars, and while they can run in the company of more dedicated machinery, they are based on mass production cars, practical yet capable of competitive speed and handling. That said they dropped the ball on the 1M, since they will build so few it would have been great to make a statement with a really lightweight car with a special engine, instead they cut corners to make it profitable for the price point they wanted. Of course it's a business but I have a feeling the Nissan GT-R may be a statement car and doesn't leave much of a profit if any at it's price point. BMW could have built a true halo car to show it can still build very light and quick cars with decent gas mileage and leading edge of technology. I would have made it for about $65k, with the same production numbers, given it a 2990 lbs weight and no less than 380 hp, and named it M-CSL a true original. Yes it would cannibalize a few M sales but would set up the next gen 1M as a mini version with a lower price point to make some profit. But then I don't run the M Division.
This. Other examples I can think of are LFA and Veyron. Sure they're in different league, but the idea is same. I'd pay 60k$ for the 1M if it had the V8, and some more carbonfiber/aluminum here and there to make it <3000lbs. Oh that would be called M1...

Hey if you ever run for "the president of M divison", you'll have my vote
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      03-23-2011, 04:57 PM   #85
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Prius example is no good. It is much smaller and has smaller engine. Sure it has 2 engines, but I bet they still don't weigh more than a V8 put together. Keep in mind, more power requires stronger drive train too, which is heavier. Even tires/wheels. The 4 wheels&tires in M3 will be around 200-250lbs. I don't think that's the case for Prius with its comical tires.

Corvette has a lot of plastic on it, and lack rear seats. Cayman is much smaller than M3, and does not have back seats.. It is not a fair comparison. If you stretch the Cayman and put 2 more seats at the back, the difference will be much less.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to defend BMW. But I want to keep this fair. I believe without too much effort, BMW would've make the M3 100-150lbs lighter. And that would be more than enough.
mazda 3 speed (3005 lbs), lotus evora (3050 lbs), porsche 911 Carrera S (3131 lbs), subaru WRX STI (3373lbs - AWD even!).

i could probably list more, but i assume this is good enough. i definitely agree on the 100-150lbs lighter M3. that alone would have made a HUGE difference.
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      03-23-2011, 05:29 PM   #86
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Quote:
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I think what's said is good feedback to Scott. This is his job. He should have thick skin for it. Remember he's giving out these information not from kindness of his heart but his superior approved these timely, concerted, release of information. This isn't inside information. This is marketing via social networking that generates a feeling we are getting inside tips. It really is no different from TV ads.
My bad, lets keep telling him how bad the company he works for sucks and how much they dont know about weight reduction. Also, lets tell him what Porsche and Audi are doing because I'm sure they have no idea. And lets not forget to communicate these points in fairly assholish manner.

Marketing or not, he's one of the VERY few members here who contribute more than just an opinion.
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      03-23-2011, 05:33 PM   #87
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mazda 3 speed (3005 lbs), lotus evora (3050 lbs), porsche 911 Carrera S (3131 lbs), subaru WRX STI (3373lbs - AWD even!).

i could probably list more, but i assume this is good enough. i definitely agree on the 100-150lbs lighter M3. that alone would have made a HUGE difference.
Well, again mazda 3 speed is a little hatchback with much less power. Evora is also a small car. Same goes for Carrera S. In fact, you see what happens when they put a little bigger engine and silhuette of rear seats.. Compared to Cayman S weight goes up ~150lbs. Now think of a bigger engine, and proper rear seats... Sure it doesn't justify 3700lbs, but still we can't compare M3 to Cayman.

WRX STI is again smaller car. But yes, all these examples suggest that BMW should be able to make M3 100-150lbs lighter.
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      03-23-2011, 06:23 PM   #88
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My bad, lets keep telling him how bad the company he works for sucks and how much they dont know about weight reduction. Also, lets tell him what Porsche and Audi are doing because I'm sure they have no idea. And lets not forget to communicate these points in fairly assholish manner.

Marketing or not, he's one of the VERY few members here who contribute more than just an opinion.
I agree the attacks should not be directed to Scott personally. Constructive criticism is preferred.
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