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      03-22-2011, 09:31 PM   #45
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interesting. i guess we will just have to wait and see
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      03-22-2011, 09:32 PM   #46
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It would be a M3 - Scott posted this in M3 post.
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      03-22-2011, 09:34 PM   #47
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Prepare for the new BMW M3...powered by DARK MATTER!!!




This will be interesting to see what it actually pans out being...
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      03-22-2011, 09:55 PM   #48
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Carbon fiber body parts and components are the future of M, just don't let VWag buy your plants out from under you
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      03-22-2011, 10:13 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazybimmer View Post
you guys need to stop building bullshit cars.

enough with the connected vision and the light weight and the pick ups and whatnot. I have been watching this i3/i8 thing for a while now, it's been a nice entertaining lunch break story for me so that I can kill some time, but now that I can see you guys are going mad with this stuff, its obvious things are much more serious.

AMG is coming with 550 hp cars, ford just owned your top model (in my book the 35 grand mustang gt going head to head in the track with an M3 is totally owning it), the entire M community is in disbelief about how you started modifying a regular engine for the M not to mention now you are bringing in turbos. what else needs to happen for you to understand? do we have to march in munich and go for a hunger strike? what happened to the true M spirit? what happened to designing engines and cars from ground up for us? isn't this why we are paying you the top dollar? i don't want a modified 335 engine, i want a brand new engine that your engineers will build.

I cannot believe what I'm hearing or seeing here. it's almost as if the M division hired a bunch of geeks from NASA who think this is some sort of a smarta$$ high school contest. You know what I'm talking about, those dudes who know the first 300 digits of the PI. They want to build "cool" stuff? they can go to google and work for them, they like "cool", we on the other hand want power, we want a car that looks and feels dominant, we want cars that we can drive the shit out of in a TRACK.

we are not going to moon, so i dont care if my car is an ounce lighter! i want to step on that throttle and i want to hear and feel that engine roar, i dont want to hear a small fan going "wiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiin " which sounds like a chipped honda civic.

I can understand one or two people having this agenda in BMW, but I don't understand how nobody is saying anything. None of your engineers raised any concerns? It's obvious you don't care what the customers think, but you should probably hear out your own people, I'm pretty sure they also don't like where this is heading.

enough said!

Perhaps you should look at the sales volume? What you call "bs" is clearly highly profitable.
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      03-22-2011, 10:24 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazybimmer View Post
what sales figures, i3/i8 is not in production yet. I m not sure I understand.
He is saying that majority of people don't give a shit about weight, balance, handling, NA engine, high revving engine, etc.... They just want a nice, good looking, status symbol, comfy bimmers. And we loose, because we're out numbered 100:1... Rightfully, BMW wants to make money. It would be nice of BMW to give them what they want, and give us what we want at the same time. But BMW is counting beans now... So they will only built and sell the stuff that sells a lot while trying to do minimal R&D.
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      03-22-2011, 10:52 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
He is saying that majority of people don't give a shit about weight, balance, handling, NA engine, high revving engine, etc.... They just want a nice, good looking, status symbol, comfy bimmers. And we loose, because we're out numbered 100:1... Rightfully, BMW wants to make money. It would be nice of BMW to give them what they want, and give us what we want at the same time. But BMW is counting beans now... So they will only built and sell the stuff that sells a lot while trying to do minimal R&D.
That appears to be the case, but where was "that majority of people" when M was launched? How can a lifelong hardcore M enthusiast possibly THANK M Division/BMWAG for basically saying "F#$% Y@%! Thanks for helping us get the M ball rolling but we don't need you anymore since we now can sell more units to the non-enthusiasts who will swallow whatever we throw their way"?

There's irony when a manufacturer seeking to create brand loyalty among clients then itself turns its back on many of those very clients by opting for a direction that's clearly geared to higher volume sales at the expense of perpetuating a reputation for building cars that its most ardent clients want to drive. With every new story, leaked teaser tidbit, I'm finding it harder and harder to have good vibes for BMW. The future doesn't make the heart skip a beat in anticipation and the joy just isn't what it used to be.
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      03-22-2011, 11:23 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel View Post
its not so easy to make cars light these days. most of the reason they are so heavy id b/c of all the safety regs from the government....and the fact that 'mericans like big ass cars...so these days all the cars that use lightweight materials also cost alot...b/c CF and alum are expensive... the government wants safer car that are more fuel effecient...that is a contradition....b/c adding safety features means more weight which decreases fuel econ...

a company cant just say "lets make it light!" and it happens....which im sure is the goal of BMW engineers....but they simply cant b/c of citeria that they have to meet. work in the industry for a day and you would understand
A Z06 vette with a bigger V8 is 3200 pounds. I owned one.
An M3 has no business being 500 pounds heavier.

The Vette didn't need 14 gears either. 0-60 in 1st AND it cruised on the freeway under 2k RPMs obtaining 24mpg.
BMW should get back to basics. 3700 pounds is just ridiculous. Simpler and lighter would be ok with me.

They definitely need to focus on making things lighter - no doubt about it.
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      03-22-2011, 11:33 PM   #53
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      03-23-2011, 01:03 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e60cs5 View Post
A Z06 vette with a bigger V8 is 3200 pounds. I owned one.
An M3 has no business being 500 pounds heavier.

The Vette didn't need 14 gears either. 0-60 in 1st AND it cruised on the freeway under 2k RPMs obtaining 24mpg.
BMW should get back to basics. 3700 pounds is just ridiculous. Simpler and lighter would be ok with me.

They definitely need to focus on making things lighter - no doubt about it.
You're seriously comparing a Vette to an M3? Really?
Where the hell are my kids going to sit in an Vette? Or my friends for a short trip to to eat? How about 2 golf bags and a couple small weekend bags?
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      03-23-2011, 01:54 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
yawn...nothing ground breaking here. Other manufacturers have done the CF monocoque chasis already years and years ago.

When BMW comes out with a new car that is made in a similar vain to a car like a Cayman S/R with a focus on ACTUAL driving dynamics and perfect harmony between all working parts Ill be interested...
I dont want to hear about lighter parts when the car still ends up weighing more.
Well, BMW had the M coupe (z series not the 1) but they kept discontinuing the only thing closest to a purist dream.
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      03-23-2011, 02:02 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazybimmer View Post
I cannot believe what I'm hearing or seeing here. it's almost as if the M division hired a bunch of geeks from NASA who think this is some sort of a smarta$$ high school contest. You know what I'm talking about, those dudes who know the first 300 digits of the PI. They want to build "cool" stuff? they can go to google and work for them, they like "cool", we on the other hand want power, we want a car that looks and feels dominant, we want cars that we can drive the shit out of in a TRACK.

enough said!

No, if that was the case, BMW would actually have cool cars. Instead they hired a marketing guy as head of M, BMW has grown up and gone corporate. Now it's all about sales numbers, revenue must increase quarter after quarter, year after uear. Volume is in the driver seat now now. Car is only as good as needed to get more sales.

Ford is almost caught up. Lexus is almost caught up. Nissan has a flagship car BMW can't compete because as the marketing puts it, we are too good for that. (Right, you can only say that after you demonstrated you can decimate the opponent.) Funny how Nissan marketing don't even consider BMW as a competitor, they went straight for Porsche.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Perhaps you should look at the sales volume? What you call "bs" is clearly highly profitable.
Toyota and Lexus are highly profitable. Even surpassed the big 3 in domestic market couple years ago, why aren't you going gaga over one? And you prove my point, they care more about profitability, performance is an afterthought. It used to be produce an excellent car to drive sales. Now it's get a good enough car, use past allure and marketing to drive sales.

BMW should get out of car manufacturing all together. Sell the plants, lay off the workers to reduce fixed cost and variable cost. Instead get into industry with higher ROI, like software. Maybe it can use the BMW name to start a company like Groupon with explosive growth that makes starbucks looks like a tortise. Hell if they liquidated and long commodities last year they would probably be more profitable.

Why don't they do that? Because their core competency is building cars. If they lose that demise will shortly follow.
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Last edited by Robert; 03-23-2011 at 02:18 AM.
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      03-23-2011, 02:59 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M1 View Post
I'll start believing in BMW's efforts on weight reduction and use of 'lightweight materials of the future' that translate into meaningful reduction in overall mass once I start seeing that reflected on actual road cars, not the pony show one-off concept exhibits.

The latest to be released M-offering - the new F10 M5 - is tipping the scales at over 4400lbs. Yeah, sure you can crank the HP to still claim a so-so HP-to-weight ratio, but really, who is this fooling? Staments on where BMW is going, vs. what it is actually rolling out, is in complete discord.
+1. There was a lot of talk about weight reduction for the M3 and all of the weight savings over the last car. Sure the engine was lighter and many other COMPONENTS are lighter but the damn car was heavier, quite a lot heavier.
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      03-23-2011, 03:30 AM   #58
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First of all, Danke Scott, deine Beiträge bereichern dieses Forum immens. (sorry for the German)

Sounds great. Always have been a fan of CF use, especially visible CF.

Scott, I know this is a somewhat strange question and only partly related, but: I have been to the Musem about 5 times spending most of the time standing in front of the CSL in the M room. Do you know why there´s a black one? I mean it´s definitely a gorgeous car, but the silver one would should of that CF roof even better and would underpin BMWs approach to that car.
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      03-23-2011, 06:13 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robo Squirrel View Post
its not so easy to make cars light these days. most of the reason they are so heavy id b/c of all the safety regs from the government....and the fact that 'mericans like big ass cars...so these days all the cars that use lightweight materials also cost alot...b/c CF and alum are expensive... the government wants safer car that are more fuel effecient...that is a contradition....b/c adding safety features means more weight which decreases fuel econ...

a company cant just say "lets make it light!" and it happens....which im sure is the goal of BMW engineers....but they simply cant b/c of citeria that they have to meet. work in the industry for a day and you would understand
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      03-23-2011, 06:34 AM   #60
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This - "bullshit" + "others do CF" + "just get lighter" + "BMW doesn't care" + etc. - is all so entertaining and ... fantastical.

>> The BMW goal: leading edge technology, leading edge handling, leading edge safety, owner-friendliness, speed, affordability.

>> The discontents' goal in this thread: make it like ... (insert "Lotus" , "Porsche" ,"Audi" , whatever). That is, make it faster, lighter, cheaper, and way ahead of competition.

Someone post three concrete, currently-available solutions to meet BOTH goals now, in a real-world implementation that BMW or any manufacturer could have done.
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      03-23-2011, 07:03 AM   #61
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Reference: I own three Lambos, two BMW's (soon to be 3 - it's on the boat!) and a Honda. I drive all of them, as often and as fast and in as many situations as possible.
Any of the Lambos own the Bimmers in some individual categories.

If I had to give up all of my rides except one, there would be no hesitation or thought necessary. I'd dump hundreds of thousands of dollars at once.

I'd keep only the E60 M5.
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      03-23-2011, 07:27 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
This - "bullshit" + "others do CF" + "just get lighter" + "BMW doesn't care" + etc. - is all so entertaining and ... fantastical.

>> The BMW goal: leading edge technology, leading edge handling, leading edge safety, owner-friendliness, speed, affordability.

>> The discontents' goal in this thread: make it like ... (insert "Lotus" , "Porsche" ,"Audi" , whatever). That is, make it faster, lighter, cheaper, and way ahead of competition.

Someone post three concrete, currently-available solutions to meet BOTH goals now, in a real-world implementation that BMW or any manufacturer could have done.
+100


People seem to have narrow minded ideas of what M should be, without appreciating that there are reasons why most of these decisions are made.
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      03-23-2011, 07:47 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
This - "bullshit" + "others do CF" + "just get lighter" + "BMW doesn't care" + etc. - is all so entertaining and ... fantastical.

>> The BMW goal: leading edge technology, leading edge handling, leading edge safety, owner-friendliness, speed, affordability.

>> The discontents' goal in this thread: make it like ... (insert "Lotus" , "Porsche" ,"Audi" , whatever). That is, make it faster, lighter, cheaper, and way ahead of competition.

Someone post three concrete, currently-available solutions to meet BOTH goals now, in a real-world implementation that BMW or any manufacturer could have done.
I think a lot of people, myself included, forget this point. If there was an alternative out there, I'd be driving it instead of my second e90 M3. With all the problems and complaints I had with my first e90, I still went out and got another. None-the-less, a lighter M3 would definitely be welcome to track junkies. I think all the haters out there complaining about weight wouldn't like the NVH that would inevitably come with a plebian M3 lightweight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hlmiii View Post
Reference: I own three Lambos, two BMW's (soon to be 3 - it's on the boat!) and a Honda. I drive all of them, as often and as fast and in as many situations as possible.
Any of the Lambos own the Bimmers in some individual categories.

If I had to give up all of my rides except one, there would be no hesitation or thought necessary. I'd dump hundreds of thousands of dollars at once.

I'd keep only the E60 M5.
I love that engine. I was just scanning the BMWUSA site last night for 6sp 2009 e60 M5s. Zero available. If there were some available, it's unlikely any would be configured the way I would like. Oh well. The current e90 is pretty nice. The only thing on my list that might replace it is a Panamera, which configured my way, is out of my price range.
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      03-23-2011, 08:47 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e60cs5 View Post
A Z06 vette with a bigger V8 is 3200 pounds. I owned one.
An M3 has no business being 500 pounds heavier.

The Vette didn't need 14 gears either. 0-60 in 1st AND it cruised on the freeway under 2k RPMs obtaining 24mpg.
BMW should get back to basics. 3700 pounds is just ridiculous. Simpler and lighter would be ok with me.

They definitely need to focus on making things lighter - no doubt about it.
the Z06 has a full aluminum chasis...only the from half of the M3 is aluminum...the rest is steel. The vette has body panels made from plastic....the M3 has steel doors and rear fenders. The vette is designed from the ground up to be a sports car....the M3 is a normalish car turned into a sports car. the vette has much cheaper components and is a much simpler design. The vette would not pass todays saftey/crash standards.

bigger doesnt always mean heavier...its all about what is underneath.

yes i agree, it should be lighter....but its just not that easy. compare it to its peers (audi S4, C63, CTS-V even....and all of the suddent its a lightweight)

and the motor in the vette is probably LIGHTER than the one in the M3 actually...no heavy DOCH or vanos or any of that....its a simple motor in a simple car....the E92 chasis is designed to do more that just go fast.
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      03-23-2011, 09:01 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
None-the-less, a lighter M3 would definitely be welcome to track junkies. I think all the haters out there complaining about weight wouldn't like the NVH that would inevitably come with a plebian M3 lightweight.
I think many of the haters couldn't afford the price tag that would inevitably come with an M3 lightweight... How many of you guys are GTS owners?

I would love to see a bill of materials for an M3 with the weights of each component... who here really knows where the weight in an M3 is?
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      03-23-2011, 09:20 AM   #66
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I think many of the haters couldn't afford the price tag that would inevitably come with an M3 lightweight... How many of you guys are GTS owners?
+1
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