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      05-08-2011, 08:14 PM   #177
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I installed my PSS this weekend (245/35 front and 275/35 rear) and have a couple of hundred KMs on them. For comparison, my last tires were Hankook V12 EVO, Michelin PS2 and Bridgestone Potenza Pole Position. I can honestly say that the PSS are by far the very best street tire I have EVER owned. They are quieter and more comfortable yet don't sacrifice turn in or feel. They have seemingly endless amounts of grip in the dry. They are the perfect performance tire for any car that is driven daily.
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      05-08-2011, 09:03 PM   #178
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What alignment are you running? Stock?

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real world
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      05-08-2011, 09:06 PM   #179
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No way it should look like that even with oem alignment. I've run ps2 with oem alignment just to see what would happen and they didnt come close to looking that bad after 200 miles of track time. Some thing seems off on this set. Either way I ordered a set so we'll see how it goes. With a proper track alignment I've been getting 4 good weekends out of a set of AD08s, so I'm expecting the PSS to be same or better.

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It is a good cautionary tale of what can happen when a street tire goes to the track. Not that this always happens, but you can definitely kill a street tire in one track day.

4sevens, just looking at the wear pattern it seems a little more negative camber would be a good idea. Outside edge is cords, everything to the center is about bald, but continuing across, by the time you get to the inside shoulder it's 4-5/32".
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      05-15-2011, 05:40 PM   #180
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Quick update...

Spent a lot of time running these tires VERY hard this weekend (all within legal limits at all times ) and I cannot tell you how impressed I am. The turn in and feel is much better than anything I have owned before. They are quiet and comfortable... much more so that the RE-11s (which I have only experienced once) and because people claim the RE-11s are more comfortable than the AD-08s, I would hazzard a guess that they are WAY more comfortable.

The ONLY downside is that they grip SO well that I haven't been able to find their limit and that makes me nervous. I can hit off ramps much faster than I have ever been able to and still have not felt as though they are losing grip... they just pull through without drama at all. This may sound weird but the side wall feels compliant just driving around but the harder you push into a corner, the harder the tire "feels" like it is getting. I get little to no feeling of sidewall flex in sharp sweeping off ramps. Because they are so good, I worry the tires will let me out drive my own ability and then when they do let go I'm toast I thought I had felt them progressively give a little before but I attribute that to very cold ambient temps (10 deg celcius)... in warmer weather (16+ deg celcius which really isn't warm), they just grip and grip and grip... well, you get the idea .

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think these are the very best tires for this car that also retain a high level of comfort and DD suitability. It wouldn't matter to me if these were the most expensive option (which they aren't) because they would be worth the price IMO. I really don't see how Pirelli will sell the PZero at all with these around.

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      05-15-2011, 07:35 PM   #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Quick update...

Spent a lot of time running these tires VERY hard this weekend (all within legal limits at all times ) and I cannot tell you how impressed I am. The turn in and feel is much better than anything I have owned before. They are quiet and comfortable... much more so that the RE-11s (which I have only experienced once) and because people claim the RE-11s are more comfortable than the AD-08s, I would hazzard a guess that they are WAY more comfortable.

The ONLY downside is that they grip SO well that I haven't been able to find their limit and that makes me nervous. I can hit off ramps much faster than I have ever been able to and still have not felt as though they are losing grip... they just pull through without drama at all. This may sound weird but the side wall feels compliant just driving around but the harder you push into a corner, the harder the tire "feels" like it is getting. I get little to no feeling of sidewall flex in sharp sweeping off ramps. Because they are so good, I worry the tires will let me out drive my own ability and then when they do let go I'm toast I thought I had felt them progressively give a little before but I attribute that to very cold ambient temps (10 deg celcius)... in warmer weather (16+ deg celcius which really isn't warm), they just grip and grip and grip... well, you get the idea .

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, I think these are the very best tires for this car that also retain a high level of comfort and DD suitability. It wouldn't matter to me if these were the most expensive option (which they aren't) because they would be worth the price IMO. I really don't see how Pirelli will sell the PZero at all with these around.
This review is spot on. I have about 500 miles on my PSS's now. They ride very well for a max performance summer tire and are about as quiet as PS2's (I don't really notice a difference, if anything, a bit quieter).

WET: They respond much better than PS2's in the wet. Steering response and grip are up what feels like "10%." The car is still very catchable but the tires definitely have more stick. I don't know if this is a good thing all the time because the car does react faster, which seems to translate into a bit less time to catch the slide before the car spins (whereas the PS2's would slide for longer, the PSS's seem to regain front grip very quickly). Given I am on the same size tires (245/265) as stock, I think the car has become a little bit more biased towards oversteer in the wet due to the additional front grip (ever so slightly).

DRY: They definitely have more grip than the PS2's, and like the previous poster said, the limits are so high that I haven't really reached them enough to tell you more. I've driven them on mountain roads and onramps and I really can't tell you anything besides they definitely have more grip than PS2's. In fact, the PSS feel like they offer the grip of a mild R-compound tire like a Toyo RA-1. Along with that thought, they seem to be quieter when they start sliding as well, similar to an R-compound. The PS2's squealed more. These seem to hang on a bit longer and have a deeper howl when they do start sliding.

If I had to name two things that improved the most, it would be wet turn and wet grip tied, with dry grip coming in 3rd. All in all an incredible tire.
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      05-16-2011, 09:52 AM   #182
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This sounds like a very good tire for the primarily street/occasional DE weekend user, which is pretty much my current situation. I have a set of 18X10 Apex wheels ordered, and I think I will try a set of these in 275/35-18. Will post my opinion after a few miles and a track weekend.
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      05-16-2011, 02:48 PM   #183
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This sounds like a very good tire for the primarily street/occasional DE weekend user, which is pretty much my current situation.
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      05-16-2011, 02:50 PM   #184
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After using these tires for about a month I couldn't be happier, I would highly recommend them.
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      05-19-2011, 12:08 AM   #185
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if i ran ps2 in the front and pss in the rear would it drive okay?
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      05-19-2011, 03:17 AM   #186
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if i ran ps2 in the front and pss in the rear would it drive okay?
Well I'm just about to run that combo (new PSS rears and nearly new PS2 fronts) so I'll let you know in a week or so.
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      05-19-2011, 03:26 AM   #187
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Well I'm just about to run that combo (new PSS rears and nearly new PS2 fronts) so I'll let you know in a week or so.
Plz do.
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      05-19-2011, 08:52 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Well I'm just about to run that combo (new PSS rears and nearly new PS2 fronts) so I'll let you know in a week or so.
A Michelin engineer suggested this very idea:

"Are you running this tire size on all four corners? If so, then this applies.

The PSS has awesome compounds on it, so grip isn't an issue (esp in the wet). I've tested it against all the competitor tires, and there is nothing that beats in on a road course (or on a wet track). The problem that I think you are having is a vehicle balance issue. Those tires you have are designed for the rear axle of most split fitment cars. Because they mainly go on the rear, we make the tire give the car some stability. The bad part is that it makes the car understeer when you put it on the front axle. You will have good grip, but the car will want to understeer more so. This puts extra stress on the outside of the tire. Is the driver complaining about understeer?

If you can't change tires, you can play with the air pressures a little to help. Let me know where you are at and I can tell you what to do. Also, the driver will have to be aware of this and try not to punish the fronts as hard.

If you can change tires, I would suggest going to the PS2 that is on the front of the Dodge Viper (Michelin part # 84530). It's the same size that you are currently using. The compound on it is awesome and it's designed for the front axle. This tire will balance the car more towards neutral mid corner with it on all four corners. "
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      05-19-2011, 08:59 AM   #189
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Well I'm just about to run that combo (new PSS rears and nearly new PS2 fronts)
Well the rear PSSs went on this morning and so far so good...there are no gross balancing issues, the car drove fine but they need scrubbing in before I push really hard.....but I don't think there will be any issues.
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      05-22-2011, 06:14 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by 4sevens.com View Post
A Michelin engineer suggested this very idea:

"Are you running this tire size on all four corners? If so, then this applies.

The PSS has awesome compounds on it, so grip isn't an issue (esp in the wet). I've tested it against all the competitor tires, and there is nothing that beats in on a road course (or on a wet track). The problem that I think you are having is a vehicle balance issue. Those tires you have are designed for the rear axle of most split fitment cars. Because they mainly go on the rear, we make the tire give the car some stability. The bad part is that it makes the car understeer when you put it on the front axle. You will have good grip, but the car will want to understeer more so. This puts extra stress on the outside of the tire. Is the driver complaining about understeer?

If you can't change tires, you can play with the air pressures a little to help. Let me know where you are at and I can tell you what to do. Also, the driver will have to be aware of this and try not to punish the fronts as hard.

If you can change tires, I would suggest going to the PS2 that is on the front of the Dodge Viper (Michelin part # 84530). It's the same size that you are currently using. The compound on it is awesome and it's designed for the front axle. This tire will balance the car more towards neutral mid corner with it on all four corners. "
Well, I guess I can't question a tire engineer, but I really don't understand the response in this case. It sounds like he is acknowledging that a square setup will result in more front grip. But, then he talks about more understeer, which is exactly counter-intuitive, as more front grip is universally known to reduce understeer. Anyone have an idea about this? I'm planning on buying a set of PSS to run 275/35-18 all around, and this comment is very puzzling.
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      05-22-2011, 09:09 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elh0102 View Post
Well, I guess I can't question a tire engineer, but I really don't understand the response in this case. It sounds like he is acknowledging that a square setup will result in more front grip. But, then he talks about more understeer, which is exactly counter-intuitive, as more front grip is universally known to reduce understeer. Anyone have an idea about this? I'm planning on buying a set of PSS to run 275/35-18 all around, and this comment is very puzzling.
It is correct. Running a square setup will cause more understeer over stock. Square setup is beneficial for most drivers. You have to ask yourself, do you want the car to rotate or push a little bit?
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      05-22-2011, 09:57 AM   #192
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I tried a square 275 setup for the track, and didnt like the balance of the car at all.
Made the rear end to light on corner exit with power on, car would oversteer like crazy.
Also car would understeer in some corners. not very predictable.
For a street car that you plan to drive home after a track day, stay away from the square setup. because if you crash it, its going to cost you
E9X M3 is normally a blast to drift and slide, but with a square setup, made it
unpredictable.

stagerred is the way to stay.
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      05-22-2011, 11:49 AM   #193
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I tried a square 275 setup for the track, and didnt like the balance of the car at all.
Made the rear end to light on corner exit with power on, car would oversteer like crazy.
Also car would understeer in some corners. not very predictable.
For a street car that you plan to drive home after a track day, stay away from the square setup. because if you crash it, its going to cost you
E9X M3 is normally a blast to drift and slide, but with a square setup, made it
unpredictable.

stagerred is the way to stay.
Ultimately it depends on driving style and specifically how you turn in - when and how much you apply power. With both square and staggered setups you can make the car understeer as well as oversteer - I can demonstrate that for you if you like

On the track, understeer is particularly frustrating and being able to oversteer more easily is a plus. Staggered is a much safer setup on the street at it will tend to understeer which is safer.

If you're worried about the drive home from track then don't drive like a mad man or if you do turn on dsc

my two cents
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      05-22-2011, 12:51 PM   #194
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Quote:
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It is correct. Running a square setup will cause more understeer over stock. Square setup is beneficial for most drivers. You have to ask yourself, do you want the car to rotate or push a little bit?
Huh? I thought wider front tires created more front grip and LESS understeer. That is why the M3 has a staggered setup... to have more grip in the rear, therefore promoting understeer and reducing oversteer which is harder for some drivers to control. I could be absolutely wrong but how can WIDER front tires cause the car to grip less and push in a corner, i.e. understeer???
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      05-22-2011, 02:06 PM   #195
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Colour me stupid but didn't BMW go to extreme lengths to get the M3 to handle as neutrally as possible by using a staggered set up? I can understand that for certain track disciplines a square set up might provide a benefit but for street driving I can't imagine anything more ill advised.
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      05-22-2011, 02:09 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saeedg48 View Post
if i ran ps2 in the front and pss in the rear would it drive okay?
Update: OK well I've now done a lot of miles with this set up and its fine...in a blind test you'd struggle to feel any real difference from PS2s all round excepting that you might notice a little more rear traction with the PSSs at the back.
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      05-22-2011, 03:40 PM   #197
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Well, I guess I can't question a tire engineer, but I really don't understand the response in this case. It sounds like he is acknowledging that a square setup will result in more front grip. But, then he talks about more understeer, which is exactly counter-intuitive, as more front grip is universally known to reduce understeer. Anyone have an idea about this? I'm planning on buying a set of PSS to run 275/35-18 all around, and this comment is very puzzling.
The engineer does say that "because they mainly go on the rear, we make the tire give the car some stability."

If that's the case, I'm assuming the more stable equals a stiffer tire. So a stiffer tire is akin to increased tire pressure/higher spring rate, which will result in more understeer.

***A quick google search will show many sources stating that a higher front tire pressure will reduce understeer? But you will get varying opinions.....I was confused on that for awhile.
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      05-22-2011, 04:14 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Colour me stupid but didn't BMW go to extreme lengths to get the M3 to handle as neutrally as possible by using a staggered set up? I can understand that for certain track disciplines a square set up might provide a benefit but for street driving I can't imagine anything more ill advised.
They did and the M3 is a totally awesome car. If there was a perfectly setup car for the most over/understeer balance the M3 is it. People who complain that it's pushy or tail-happy in it's stock configuration is lacking in their driving ability. You can make it go either way depending on your driving style.

I think for normal street driving - even aggressive driving - the stock staggered or the square setup doesn't make much difference. However on track you just change your driving style to compensate as needed.
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