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      05-22-2011, 05:31 PM   #199
SenorFunkyPants
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sevens.com View Post

I think for normal street driving - even aggressive driving - the stock staggered or the square setup doesn't make much difference.
I would totally disagree with that.
265/35/19s all round is going to increase the grip at the front while reducing steering feel and feedback.
You end up going from a relatively neutral balance to one with more oversteer. Street driven cars always need slightly more grip at the rear, even if its only a 1% front to rear difference...you need to be confident that the front end grip you feel with the steering wheel will be matched by the rear grip...which in turn allows you to balance the car in the turn with the throttle.
Cars that are too "pointy" are a total PITA for street driving.
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      05-22-2011, 05:46 PM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
I would totally disagree with that.
265/35/19s all round is going to increase the grip at the front while reducing steering feel and feedback.
You end up going from a relatively neutral balance to one with more oversteer. Street driven cars always need slightly more grip at the rear, even if its only a 1% front to rear difference...you need to be confident that the front end grip you feel with the steering wheel will be matched by the rear grip...which in turn allows you to balance the car in the turn with the throttle.
Cars that are too "pointy" are a total PITA for street driving.
You miss my point! I said STREET driving the difference is minimized (where you're not pushing the limits of the car). I was responding to edman's concern that he's going to wreck on the way home from the track. LOL. Driving on the street is very much different than what you should be driving on track.

My second point is, REGARDLESS of what setup I'm running (and I'm speaking from experience) I can MAKE the car understeer or oversteer depending on how I'm driving.

I stand by my point - unless you're driving on the street like you're driving at a racetrack, square or staggered doesn't make much difference. Nothing that some very small driver tweaks can't compensate.
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      05-22-2011, 06:43 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by Martin_D View Post
It is correct. Running a square setup will cause more understeer over stock. Square setup is beneficial for most drivers. You have to ask yourself, do you want the car to rotate or push a little bit?
Well, I can't report yet on the PSS square setup on the E92 specifically, since my wheels won't be here until next week, and then I have to order tires. But, if switching from the staggered to square setup does not reduce understeer, it will be a first for me. Frankly, I don't find the E92 to have a problematic amount of understeer. I'm making the change more to simplify rotation (and partly just as an experiment).
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      05-22-2011, 07:04 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by elh0102 View Post
Well, I can't report yet on the PSS square setup on the E92 specifically, since my wheels won't be here until next week, and then I have to order tires. But, if switching from the staggered to square setup does not reduce understeer, it will be a first for me. Frankly, I don't find the E92 to have a problematic amount of understeer. I'm making the change more to simplify rotation (and partly just as an experiment).
I just finished driving 5000 miles (in 8 days of onelapofamerica.com) both on the street and at the track everyday on square 275/35/18's. They're great. Grip was incredible both dry and wet - a marked improvement over the stock ps2 (aka viper tires) and the square setup definitely helped rotation when needed. It was more prone to oversteer as expected when pushed to the limits at the track.
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      05-22-2011, 11:18 PM   #203
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Quote:
I was responding to edman's concern that he's going to wreck on the way home from the track. LOL.
I was referring to a non predictable setup making it more crash prone on the track, so you may not be drive her home after a track day.

I personally didn't like the sq setup, just me
To each is own right
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      05-23-2011, 07:43 AM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edman951 View Post
I was referring to a non predictable setup making it more crash prone on the track, so you may not be drive her home after a track day.

I personally didn't like the sq setup, just me
To each is own right
I'd like to emphasize the driver more than the car (the basketball player rather than his shoes is what makes a good player). My co-driver and I just competed in onelapofamerica.com on a square setup driving 5000 miles in a week. It may have been MORE tail-happy than stock but NOT unpredictable. I find understeer more frustrating than dealing with oversteer at the track. We were in the 10 ten overall for the first two days! Check out some of the "square" PSS 275 action on recent video:

daytona superspeedway - we hit 160mph twice each lap


Here's a fun one - chasing another car - we intentionally pushed the car to get loose on the turns


barber motorsports park - cam mounted on the lip - note how well it did on the corkscrew


autobahn south - there some good counter-steer action - this is his first time on track, competing for time. 1 out lap, then 3 hotlaps


summit point


there are a ton more from this week.
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      05-24-2011, 10:12 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Update: OK well I've now done a lot of miles with this set up and its fine...in a blind test you'd struggle to feel any real difference from PS2s all round excepting that you might notice a little more rear traction with the PSSs at the back.
I completely disagree. The PSS clearly has a much stiffer sidewall than the ps2 and a size able amount more grip in every direction. Albeit I did get the larger 255/275. The PSS is a MUCH better performance tire.
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      05-25-2011, 02:55 AM   #206
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I completely disagree. The PSS clearly has a much stiffer sidewall than the ps2 and a size able amount more grip in every direction. Albeit I did get the larger 255/275. The PSS is a MUCH better performance tire.
I only have the PSSs on the rear so the only real indicator is traction which as I stated is better with the PSSs over the PS2s.
My post was to reassure those who like me who wanted to switch to PSSs but still had nearly new front PS2s and were concerned about how the car would handle with a mix of PSSs on the rear and PS2s on the front.
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      05-26-2011, 03:58 AM   #207
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It's time for new tires and from what I've heard here the PSS's sound like an excellent option, but I need them ASAP since I got a flat and can't drive anywhere in the meantime...

I have OEM 19"s (220M) which came with Pirelli PZero 245/35/19 and 265/35/19. Stock (non-ZCP) suspension, but I do have spacers: currently 18mm/15mm, but they occasionally rub going over large bumps (especially with passengers), so I've ordered 12mm to put on the rear and move the 15mm to the front.

I want the PSS's but it looks like the 265/35/19 size won't be available in the US until mid-June (can't wait that long). It sounds like people are successfully running 255/35/19 and 275/35/19, but what is the tradeoff of 255+275 vs. 245+265?

If I do go with 255+275 I'm concerned about how they'll fit with the spacers, especially since the 245/35/19 and 265/35/19 PZeros already rubbed sometimes. If I drop down to 15mm/12mm should I be ok even with the 255/35/19 and 275/35/19 on stock suspension (E93)?

Finally, where can I get these tires [in or delivered to SF] quickly? I'm without a car until I get new tires.
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      05-26-2011, 01:24 PM   #208
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Just installed the Pilot Super Sports today on my OEM 19s 220M wheels using 255/35/19 for fronts and 275/35/19 and rears. Lowered on RD Sport springs and with 15mm front and 12mm rear spacers.

I haven't experienced any rubbing yet, but will give more feedback after I have driven more miles with these new tires. Pretty happy with the new tires, was using the Pilot Sport 2 previously.
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      05-26-2011, 01:27 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlr View Post
It's time for new tires and from what I've heard here the PSS's sound like an excellent option, but I need them ASAP since I got a flat and can't drive anywhere in the meantime...

I have OEM 19"s (220M) which came with Pirelli PZero 245/35/19 and 265/35/19. Stock (non-ZCP) suspension, but I do have spacers: currently 18mm/15mm, but they occasionally rub going over large bumps (especially with passengers), so I've ordered 12mm to put on the rear and move the 15mm to the front.

I want the PSS's but it looks like the 265/35/19 size won't be available in the US until mid-June (can't wait that long). It sounds like people are successfully running 255/35/19 and 275/35/19, but what is the tradeoff of 255+275 vs. 245+265?

If I do go with 255+275 I'm concerned about how they'll fit with the spacers, especially since the 245/35/19 and 265/35/19 PZeros already rubbed sometimes. If I drop down to 15mm/12mm should I be ok even with the 255/35/19 and 275/35/19 on stock suspension (E93)?

Finally, where can I get these tires [in or delivered to SF] quickly? I'm without a car until I get new tires.
Tirerack from nevada is usually overnight for me
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      05-26-2011, 04:08 PM   #210
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I installed the Super Sports on the OEM Competition rims 10x19 +25 front and rear.
Sizes I used are 265/30-19 front and 295/30-19 rear. The rear tyre comes very wide - about 305mm, which is the maximum without additional mods.
Great tyre
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      05-26-2011, 09:59 PM   #211
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I did a PSS demo day at California Speedway in Fontana a couple of days ago. We were driving 328's and ISF's around the infield course and an autocross course was setup in the parking lot. We did direct A/B comparisons against Pirelli, Goodyear & Conti's. The PSS's are astonishing. This tire is a major step forward compared to the PS2. Awesome tire that I would not hesitate to recommend.

A couple of pics from the event....

The wasted tire is a Conti after approx. 100 laps on the autocross course.


I'm currently running 255/35/19F and 275/35/19R on ZCP's and love them.
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      05-26-2011, 10:09 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sam.k View Post
Just installed the Pilot Super Sports today on my OEM 19s 220M wheels using 255/35/19 for fronts and 275/35/19 and rears. Lowered on RD Sport springs and with 15mm front and 12mm rear spacers.

I haven't experienced any rubbing yet, but will give more feedback after I have driven more miles with these new tires. Pretty happy with the new tires, was using the Pilot Sport 2 previously.
Pics would be really helpful for us 220M owners.
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      05-28-2011, 06:08 AM   #213
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Here are pics for the comp wheels:

http://img5.imageshack.us/g/p1080110b.jpg/
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      05-29-2011, 10:40 AM   #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sevens.com View Post
I'd like to emphasize the driver more than the car (the basketball player rather than his shoes is what makes a good player). My co-driver and I just competed in onelapofamerica.com on a square setup driving 5000 miles in a week. It may have been MORE tail-happy than stock but NOT unpredictable. I find understeer more frustrating than dealing with oversteer at the track. We were in the 10 ten overall for the first two days! Check out some of the "square" PSS 275 action on recent video:

there are a ton more from this week.
Looks like you were chasing your tail a little at Summit. Fun!
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      05-30-2011, 06:35 PM   #215
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The tire engineer is saying that certain sizes of the PSS & PS2 were optimized for use as a front or rear tire. Apparently the PSS in the size used was intended as a rear tire & didn't work well on the front while the PS2 is available in a front-optimized tire in the same size. The Roundel writeup on the PSS intro in Dubai mentions this (especially in the part about Alpina & Michelin).

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4sevens.com View Post
A Michelin engineer suggested this very idea:

"Are you running this tire size on all four corners? If so, then this applies.

The PSS has awesome compounds on it, so grip isn't an issue (esp in the wet). I've tested it against all the competitor tires, and there is nothing that beats in on a road course (or on a wet track). The problem that I think you are having is a vehicle balance issue. Those tires you have are designed for the rear axle of most split fitment cars. Because they mainly go on the rear, we make the tire give the car some stability. The bad part is that it makes the car understeer when you put it on the front axle. You will have good grip, but the car will want to understeer more so. This puts extra stress on the outside of the tire. Is the driver complaining about understeer?

If you can't change tires, you can play with the air pressures a little to help. Let me know where you are at and I can tell you what to do. Also, the driver will have to be aware of this and try not to punish the fronts as hard.

If you can change tires, I would suggest going to the PS2 that is on the front of the Dodge Viper (Michelin part # 84530). It's the same size that you are currently using. The compound on it is awesome and it's designed for the front axle. This tire will balance the car more towards neutral mid corner with it on all four corners. "
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      05-30-2011, 07:07 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tlp View Post
I did a PSS demo day at California Speedway in Fontana a couple of days ago. We were driving 328's and ISF's around the infield course and an autocross course was setup in the parking lot. We did direct A/B comparisons against Pirelli, Goodyear & Conti's. The PSS's are astonishing. This tire is a major step forward compared to the PS2. Awesome tire that I would not hesitate to recommend.

A couple of pics from the event....

The wasted tire is a Conti after approx. 100 laps on the autocross course.


I'm currently running 255/35/19F and 275/35/19R on ZCP's and love them.
How did you get in on that!!!
Did you get to drive any of the high power cars?

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      05-30-2011, 07:51 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
As many know, this is the replacement for the PS2 and will be hitting the market next month. I spoke to the largest Michelin dealer in the area that I know personally and was told that not only does the Super Sport outperform the PS2 in every way, it has a 30,000km (maybe 50k, I can't remember now) tread warranty (unusual in this category) and is CHEAPER than the PS2!! Sounds like a winning combo... this will be the tire I run on my new Morr VS8.2.

This will likely be a VERY good compromise for those wanting a relatively comfortable DD tire but with better track capabilities for HPDE's. Michelin told the dealer that the Super Sport will be in between the PS2 and Sport Cup on the track performance wise but over 50% more tread life. Not, that I get excited about tires normally but gotta say I'm pretty excited!

Here is a recent article I found... http://www.europeancarweb.com/tires/...ogy/index.html



when for M3 june 1st?
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      06-01-2011, 12:32 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Checkcaptain View Post
I installed the Super Sports on the OEM Competition rims 10x19 +25 front and rear.
Sizes I used are 265/30-19 front and 295/30-19 rear. The rear tyre comes very wide - about 305mm, which is the maximum without additional mods.
Great tyre
Checkcaptain- does the +25 mean you used a 25mm spacer front and rear? Sorry for the newbie question...

Has anyone run these set ups on a completely stock (stock suspension / no spacers) E90 ZCP:

255/35-19 front and 295/30-19 rear

or

265/30-19 front and 295/30-19 rear

Is there any rubbing at full compression or at the suspension compression levels you'd see at a track?

Please advise.

Thanks!
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      06-02-2011, 04:41 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankzlin79 View Post
Awesome info! I'll hold off until buying next month. Where did you hear about this news?
Checked today at tirerack and still no 265/35/19...still holding out. If I can't wait any longer and need to go for the 275', would any tire installer put non-OEM size tires on?
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      06-02-2011, 05:10 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by sfbmwboy View Post
If I can't wait any longer and need to go for the 275', would any tire installer put non-OEM size tires on?
Any installer should install any tire on a rim that is within the recommended width range, per that tire's manufacturer. For a 275 width PSS that range is 9" - 11".
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