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      03-18-2011, 11:03 AM   #45
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
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Originally Posted by AudiS5 View Post
Took ford long enough. Not knocking their effort, just saying to gloat about beating a car thats been out since 07 really isn't impressive.
How long do you think it will take BMW to build a car that will match or beat the Ford GT?
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      03-18-2011, 12:39 PM   #46
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Is the M3 price including gas guzzler tax? I mean if you want to it that way I can make the gap between the two much bigger.

Obviously I could have gone to further detail but the point was still the same; m3 is significantly more money. About 2X more in fact.
Right....and its 3x the car....
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      03-18-2011, 01:05 PM   #47
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I havenít read all this thread, but the substance is pretty obvious. I have never understood why folks get their shorts in knot over competing cars. We all buy the best car we can afford, based on our individual tastes and objectives. Similar to the Mustang, the Corvette is another car that many BMW owners love to bash. Iíve owned two ZO6s. Based on about any performance criteria, it absolutely trounces the M3. But I currently own an E92 M3, and I enjoy it very much, but my priorities have changed. The Mustang is, of course a better value, and I am encouraged to see Ford make a car like the Boss 302. That kind of performance production results in all competitors making better cars, so we all win.
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      03-18-2011, 02:42 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
How long do you think it will take BMW to build a car that will match or beat the Ford GT?
It kinda sucks that BMW is more of a luxuory car maker than sports car maker. Right now, they don't have any sports car technically. M3 is fast, sporty and all, but still 4 seater sports sedan...

They attempted with Z3 and Z4 MC but that didn't go very well for them.

I think they've a point though. If they make a car faster than comparable Porshce, they'll want to charge as much. But then not many people will buy it because everyone will say "if I'm paying that much, I'll get a Porsche"...
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      03-18-2011, 02:48 PM   #49
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Who really cares all that much about speed? Who "drag races" an M3? Certainly not me. I bought mine for the fit/finish, the looks, the feel of the car on the road, etc. All of the things that german sports sedans are supposed to be. Frankly, IMHO, comparing an M3 to a Mustang is akin to comparing a filet mignon with ground beef...yeah, they're both from cows, but they serve two different segments of society.

To me open the door of a 'stang and sit inside where it really counts.... American made car, designed at a "price point" for the masses. I'll take german engineering and quality (and eyeball appeal) anyday.
That why "you" bought the M. "Others" have different tastes and criteria. Great to have choices isn't it? I personally like most everything about the 302 save for the looks of the rear end. I don't think you will find anybody out there (save for the KoolAid drinking fanbois) that will say that the fit/finish in the 302 is on par with the M. They choose the 302 for any number of things --- cost, performance, want to remain loyal to the brand, etc. Perhaps they have a DD and want something edgy to drive as a weekend/track toy that's relatively inexpensive? Take me for example, I've got a $55-60K budget so I ordered an '11 Grand Sport Vette because I want something edgier than an M as a weekend fun car. Doesn't mean I think it's necessarily better than the current M. If the GT-R came in manual, I probably would suck it up and spend a couple grand more and go with a slightly used one of those. If I could afford it...I'd go with an F430. Different reasons for different folks.

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      03-18-2011, 02:51 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Bruce makes a good point.

Further proof of this is the M3 GTS. Yes, its brand new and has been gutted, roll caged, motor worked, DCT tweaked etc, yet it can barely keep pace with a 5 year old 'regular' GT3 (with a 6mt mind you) or a Scuderia even though they were aiming for that and had a lot of time to do it. Not to mention its more expensive than a GT3 when it was new too.
The Z4M didnt sell well because while it was a very good car, it doesnt hold a candle to the car it was meant to compete against in the Boxtser S/Cayman S.
Yeah in terms of price/performance M3 GTS is a disappointment.

I think Z4M had comparable performance with boxter s and cayman s. It had more power though...
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      03-18-2011, 03:58 PM   #51
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That why "you" bought the M. "Others" have different tastes and criteria. Great to have choices isn't it? I personally like most everything about the 302 save for the looks of the rear end. I don't think you will find anybody out there (save for the KoolAid drinking fanbois) that will say that the fit/finish in the 302 is on par with the M. They choose the 302 for any number of things --- cost, performance, want to remain loyal to the brand, etc. Perhaps they have a DD and want something edgy to drive as a weekend/track toy that's relatively inexpensive? Take me for example, I've got a $55-60K budget so I ordered an '11 Grand Sport Vette because I want something edgier than an M as a weekend fun car. Doesn't mean I think it's necessarily better than the current M. If the GT-R came in manual, I probably would suck it up and spend a couple grand more and go with a slightly used one of those. If I could afford it...I'd go with an F430. Different reasons for different folks.
All good points....especially the part about the F430....LOVE that machine
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      03-18-2011, 04:12 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
How long do you think it will take BMW to build a car that will match or beat the Ford GT?
All "manufacturer X vs. manufacturer Y" pissing contests aside, I think the 2012 M5 may match the Ford GT in acceleration. 600-ish hp, 4000lbs...it'd be close.
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      03-18-2011, 04:22 PM   #53
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I knew this thread felt familiar, it was like when the STI and EVO came out, matching the e46M3s track times and 0-60 times at a fraction of the cost.

I have to say, as a two time STI owner - I always wished I was in the M3, though our track times were similiar the execution of the M3 was always better.

It's never just about the numbers unless your entire focus is racing, it has to be obvious that the M3 has made significant concenssions to be a great Daily Driver, not just a track car.

If all you want is numbers, an EVO, STI or Mustang should be your choice.
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      03-18-2011, 04:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
All "manufacturer X vs. manufacturer Y" pissing contests aside, I think the 2012 M5 may match the Ford GT in acceleration. 600-ish hp, 4000lbs...it'd be close.
The F10 550i, with the 400 hp/450 lbs tq twin turbo V8, is no faster than its predecessor E60 550i with the naturally aspirated 360/360 V8. This appears to be largely due to the 400 lbs of extra pork carried by the F10, but may also be due in part to the gearing.

I am curious how the new M5 will do against the old M5. Certainly the added torque of the M version of the twin turbo engine as seen in the X5M and X6M, at 500 hp and 550 lbs tq, would be more exciting than the 380 lbs tq of the old M5.
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      03-18-2011, 04:47 PM   #55
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The F10 550i, with the 400 hp/450 lbs tq twin turbo V8, is no faster than its predecessor E60 550i with the naturally aspirated 360/360 V8. This appears to be largely due to the 400 lbs of extra pork carried by the F10, but may also be due in part to the gearing.
The tests I've seen show the F10 550i up to 0.5 seconds and 5mph faster in the quarter mile than the E60 generation. The new M5 is definitely going to outperform the V10 model and that was a car that could run well over 115mph in the quarter mile.

<EDIT: added a few links>

E60 550i


F10 550i
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      03-18-2011, 04:59 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by pbonsalb View Post
The F10 550i, with the 400 hp/450 lbs tq twin turbo V8, is no faster than its predecessor E60 550i with the naturally aspirated 360/360 V8. This appears to be largely due to the 400 lbs of extra pork carried by the F10, but may also be due in part to the gearing.

I am curious how the new M5 will do against the old M5. Certainly the added torque of the M version of the twin turbo engine as seen in the X5M and X6M, at 500 hp and 550 lbs tq, would be more exciting than the 380 lbs tq of the old M5.
The fact that it will make a lot more power at lower RPM's is what's gonna make it exciting.
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      03-18-2011, 04:59 PM   #57
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The Ford may match the M3 in measurable performance numbers, but not in the intangibles that make up the driving experience. I grew up on Mustangs and will never go back. I sold a supercharged '06 GT to get my M3.

I tried to go the more cost effective route first but it was just not worth it to me. Granted, this one is a slightly different animal than my GT was but there was a whole lot missing from a car that was basically as fast my M3.
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      03-18-2011, 07:58 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
All "manufacturer X vs. manufacturer Y" pissing contests aside, I think the 2012 M5 may match the Ford GT in acceleration. 600-ish hp, 4000lbs...it'd be close.
I'd be pleasantly surprised if the new M5 could match the Ford GT. Say, 10% more power with, at minimum, 15% more weight if we're lucky.

Very lucky.

Then of course, if the M5 did in fact match or beat the Ford GT and I were a Ford fanboy, I'd say "Took them seven years..." or some such.

Yes, just being ridiculous, like some other posts in this string.

The Mustang is not considered to be a competitor to the M3. Not by Ford, not by BMW, and not by anyone else of right mind. Different cars, different price points, aimed at differing venues.

Both great cars, by the way.

Edit: Just looked up the 550i, and BMW lists the 6-speed version at over 4300 pounds. Wow! I'd be amazed if the M5 were lighter.

No, the Ford GT is almost certainly safe.

Last edited by bruce.augenstein@comcast.; 03-18-2011 at 09:10 PM.
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      03-19-2011, 09:32 PM   #59
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Who cares. I bought an M3 cuz I wanted one. If I could only afford a stang, I still wouldn't have bought one.
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      03-19-2011, 10:37 PM   #60
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Have you not been paying attention? The new 5.0 mustang is on par with an e9x m3 not just in a straight line, but around a road course as well.
meow
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      03-20-2011, 04:14 AM   #61
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Hey its still a ford which means it's gonna break I'll take my m any day
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      03-20-2011, 06:55 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Garissimo View Post
The tests I've seen show the F10 550i up to 0.5 seconds and 5mph faster in the quarter mile than the E60 generation. The new M5 is definitely going to outperform the V10 model and that was a car that could run well over 115mph in the quarter mile.

<EDIT: added a few links>

E60 550i


F10 550i
Road & Track just tested the F10 550i and compared the results to its test of the E60 550i.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/car/2011-bmw-550i

Maybe they had a slow F10 and a fast E60? Maybe Car and Driver had a fast F10 and a slow E60?
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      03-20-2011, 09:52 AM   #63
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not surprised, and the Mustang does it on regular gas too.

if "value" was one of my criteria when I shopping for a car, I'd be in a Mustang or 370Z, not a BMW of any kind (and I probably won't be splurging next time around)

that being said, the M3 is still on a different level when it comes to overall experience
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      03-20-2011, 06:45 PM   #64
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Hey its still a ford which means it's gonna break I'll take my m any day
You better take a look at the recent JD Power numbers...Lincoln was #1, beating out Toyota and Porsche. Ford was ahead of BMW. Also, the Ford Mustang won the midize sporty car segment for dependability.

Another fanbois.

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      03-20-2011, 09:03 PM   #65
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And you are a douche bag, nothing new from westchester county.
Remember, you can lead a horse to water, but you'll never make him drink.

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      03-21-2011, 02:14 AM   #66
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Imagine in 30 years we will see 600hp Accords, horsepower/speed wars are stupid past a certain point imo...especially for what a 18 year old could afford. I can see it now, "Teen death increases because of (relatively) cheap muscle cars." Not saying $30k is cheap, but very much attainable to the mass middle class market.

The next generation of german sports sedans have to compete with these clown cars now (challenger, camaro, mustang)...I would rather see manufacturers focus on other things than just numbers.
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