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      03-17-2011, 04:55 PM   #45
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How are you at heel-and-toe/rev-matching, Brian?
Oh I'm terrible. Completely incapable of executing one. Ask Rene.
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      03-17-2011, 04:58 PM   #46
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Can't tell if you're joking or serious.
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      03-17-2011, 06:00 PM   #47
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Wow, how did LateBraking's original post in this thread disappear?????
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      03-17-2011, 06:05 PM   #48
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Good question. We'll never know. What a shame.
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      03-17-2011, 06:57 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
Even if you rev match badly, it's A LOT better than taking the lazy approach and getting an automatic . And yes, I said lazy because that's what it is <insert spoiled accent here>: too much traffic and my puny leg will get tired; I can 't text while I'm in traffic; I'd look stupid with my friends that I don't know how to drive a manual well if I don't get a DCT; I like to pretend I can drive like a pro right off the bat... Ha ha. And yes, I understand an automatic for a family car, but on a high-performance car I just don't get it.

It's exactly the same as if you let a porn star bang your SO because he's going to do it better than you. As bad as you do it, it's something you want to do do yourself, and learn how to do better, right? Same thing folks. Get a freaking 6MT while you can and enjoy having full control of your car; who the hell cares how slower than DCT you are. And yes, we all know we'll be slower than DCT, but just as the example above, I rather do the work myself than letting somebody else (or a computer) do the work for me . Now I freaking made it a 6MT vs DCT... to defend our honor . Good day gang.
The majority of the highest performance cars available today (either street or track cars) have paddle shifted transmissions.

The level of insistance on the superiority of an MT is usually inversely proportional to the ability to drive one propely. Anyone who thinks that a 6MT gives more control than a DCT very likely isn't very proficient at driving either.

CA
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      03-17-2011, 08:02 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The majority of the highest performance cars available today (either street or track cars) have paddle shifted transmissions.

The level of insistance on the superiority of an MT is usually inversely proportional to the ability to drive one propely. Anyone who thinks that a 6MT gives more control than a DCT very likely isn't very proficient at driving either.

CA
They have paddle shifted transmissions because those companies are in business to make money, and they make more money marketing technology to people who crave technology.

Again I'll comment to the contrary of most everyone else here. I just bought my second dual clutch transmission car. VW DSG. It's great. I had a DCT transmission in a 2009 e90. It sucked at pretty much everything. Yeah, it could bang off an upshift in 41 microseconds or some other technologically wonderfully tiny amount of time. But it sucked.

I don't love technology for the sake of technology. The DCT can't pull off a quick downshift smoothly 100% of the time. And that's the problem. I don't know when it's going to fuck up. Is it going to mess up my corner entry on that downhill decreasing radius with trees on both sides? Don't know. And that destroyed my confidence in the transmission.

I do know that it tried to kill me for 18 months while BMW said there was nothing wrong with it. I do know that BMW after 18 months came out with a software update that stopped the POS from randomly trying to kill me when I'd slow and then ask for power (the dreaded 2+ second lag).

Maybe I'm some super Stig snuffing, manual transmission shifting savant. But I doubt it. All I know is I can bang off downshifts consistently better than a DCT. I'll be out at NJMP and WGI with my slow shifting manual later this year. All you DCT drivers are welcome to come out and show me the way around the track in those technologically superior DCTs. Chances are you'll won't be significantly slower or faster, but you won't have as much fun while doing it, either.
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      03-17-2011, 08:23 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
The majority of the highest performance cars available today (either street or track cars) have paddle shifted transmissions.

The level of insistance on the superiority of an MT is usually inversely proportional to the ability to drive one propely. Anyone who thinks that a 6MT gives more control than a DCT very likely isn't very proficient at driving either.

CA
That's exactly why I've been trolling this thread. You can generally tell who's accomplished with MT and who's a rookie. The former tends to profess their preference for MT; whereas, the latter tends to attack "autos" and spew their love of "being in complete control."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
They have paddle shifted transmissions because those companies are in business to make money, and they make more money marketing technology to people who crave technology.

Again I'll comment to the contrary of most everyone else here. I just bought my second dual clutch transmission car. VW DSG. It's great. I had a DCT transmission in a 2009 e90. It sucked at pretty much everything. Yeah, it could bang off an upshift in 41 microseconds or some other technologically wonderfully tiny amount of time. But it sucked.

I don't love technology for the sake of technology. The DCT can't pull off a quick downshift smoothly 100% of the time. And that's the problem. I don't know when it's going to fuck up. Is it going to mess up my corner entry on that downhill decreasing radius with trees on both sides? Don't know. And that destroyed my confidence in the transmission.

I do know that it tried to kill me for 18 months while BMW said there was nothing wrong with it. I do know that BMW after 18 months came out with a software update that stopped the POS from randomly trying to kill me when I'd slow and then ask for power (the dreaded 2+ second lag).

Maybe I'm some super Stig snuffing, manual transmission shifting savant. But I doubt it. All I know is I can bang off downshifts consistently better than a DCT. I'll be out at NJMP and WGI with my slow shifting manual later this year. All you DCT drivers are welcome to come out and show me the way around the track in those technologically superior DCTs. Chances are you'll won't be significantly slower or faster, but you won't have as much fun while doing it, either.
That may be true for automakers in general, but how do you explain all F1 cars using paddle shifters? That's marketing too...?
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      03-17-2011, 08:28 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
They have paddle shifted transmissions because those companies are in business to make money, and they make more money marketing technology to people who crave technology.

Again I'll comment to the contrary of most everyone else here. I just bought my second dual clutch transmission car. VW DSG. It's great. I had a DCT transmission in a 2009 e90. It sucked at pretty much everything. Yeah, it could bang off an upshift in 41 microseconds or some other technologically wonderfully tiny amount of time. But it sucked.

I don't love technology for the sake of technology. The DCT can't pull off a quick downshift smoothly 100% of the time. And that's the problem. I don't know when it's going to fuck up. Is it going to mess up my corner entry on that downhill decreasing radius with trees on both sides? Don't know. And that destroyed my confidence in the transmission.

I do know that it tried to kill me for 18 months while BMW said there was nothing wrong with it. I do know that BMW after 18 months came out with a software update that stopped the POS from randomly trying to kill me when I'd slow and then ask for power (the dreaded 2+ second lag).

Maybe I'm some super Stig snuffing, manual transmission shifting savant. But I doubt it. All I know is I can bang off downshifts consistently better than a DCT. I'll be out at NJMP and WGI with my slow shifting manual later this year. All you DCT drivers are welcome to come out and show me the way around the track in those technologically superior DCTs. Chances are you'll won't be significantly slower or faster, but you won't have as much fun while doing it, either.
Based on your exerience I don't blame you for not liking the DCT in your M3 but it sounds to me that it was not operating properly. I also totally respect the opinion of anyone who feels an MT is more fun.

Racing, however, is about winning, That's why it is called racing.

Race cars have paddle shifted transmissions because they perform better.

In racing there is a term for a driver who is slower but had more fun.

He is refereed to as "the loser".

CA
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Last edited by captainaudio; 03-17-2011 at 08:54 PM.
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      03-17-2011, 08:40 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
That's exactly why I've been trolling this thread. You can generally tell who's accomplished with MT and who's a rookie. The former tends to profess their preference for MT; whereas, the latter tends to attack "autos" and spew their love of "being in complete control."

You can pretty much tell who's who by the posts that read "Real performance cars have MTs. I don't know how to heel and toe but I love being in complete control."

If you don't know how to heel and toe you are nowhere close to being in complete control and the only reason you don't spin out is because you are driving far enough below the limits of the car that you can get away with poor driving technique.

CA
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      03-17-2011, 08:46 PM   #54
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^Indeed. BTW, I'm gonna hire you as my spokesperson. You're articulating this far better than I have been doing.
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      03-17-2011, 09:10 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RossM3 View Post
...I have yet to hear any female passengers say "ohhh you know how to drive auto" LOL.

6spd FTW.
And I've never heard them say "ohhh you know how to drive a manual". Girls aren't that shallow nowadays. Today, you'd need to pull off your steering wheel while you are driving to impress them.

To the OP, doing heel toe or double clutch downshifts are hard when you are in the low rev range, the fact that you are applying constant brake pressure will almost always drop your rev below 1000rpm if your rev was lower than 2500 - 3000 to start with, so you'll almost always have that jerky motion. Manual cars today are equipped with syncros, so as long as you don't disengage the clutch for too long, your clutch won't break before you'd decided to sell it It's the proper way to drive a race car, but on the street? Don't worry about it.
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      03-17-2011, 09:39 PM   #56
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I don't think I'm consistently faster or smoother than DCT with downshifts, but changing down multiple gears does feel rather slow at times. There is indeed a delay in the clutch release so it makes you wait before you can apply power.

I think because you're not physically pushing in the clutch and changing the gear, but rather just waiting, it feels slower than it actually is. Or it might just be slower in general.

Oh and with a traditional manual, I rev-match all the time, but rarely if ever do I heel and toe on the street. You need to be rather hard on the brakes to perform it correctly. And rev-matched downshifts may not always be perfect, but as long as the balance of the car isn't upset, it's not a big deal.
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      03-18-2011, 01:16 AM   #57
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Quote:
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.
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
.
You two stop pretending the M3 is a freaking race car; it's a STREET CAR, and neither of you nor 99.99%+ of the owners race competitively on their M3, so NONE of you really need the advantages of faster shifting.
And I said on a 6MT you have full control of the car (which you do), not that every 6MT driver drives like a race car driver .

Nobody here is claiming to have racecar driving skills, but if you enjoy driving a 6MT, you're a true driver, no matter how skilled. Nobody was born a race car driver, so it takes practice to perfect anything, including the lost art of manual driving skills.

The difference between DCT and 6MT drivers is that we're not embarrassed to admit we're not the best drivers in the world, and we're having a lot of fun learning to drive better. So cut the crap that we pretend to be better drivers because we like to be in control because nobody here is saying that; we're only saying we're better driving enthusiasts... because we are . So you egomaniac DCT sissies should ditch your automatic toys (or leave them to your wives) and buy a real man's car while you can . This is fun. Have a good one folks.
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      03-18-2011, 02:44 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
we're only saying we're better driving enthusiasts... because we are .
Followed by...

Quote:
Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
So you egomaniac DCT sissies should ditch your automatic toys (or leave them to your wives) and buy a real man's car while you can . This is fun. Have a good one folks.

So...

DCT drivers = egomaniacs
6MT drivers = douches?

Correct me if I'm wrong...
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      03-18-2011, 02:45 AM   #59
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PS There should be a ban on 6MT vs DCT threads.
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      03-18-2011, 03:04 AM   #60
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IMO DCT is better in every single way except 6MT is funner because you do everything yourself.
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      03-18-2011, 03:22 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
"Perfect Rev Matching" on (6)MT? lulz
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC3 View Post
Again, "perfect Rev Matching" on (6)MT? lulz
lulz I will teach you how to, and then maybe when your DCT lease is up, you can get back to a 6MT
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      03-18-2011, 03:23 AM   #62
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Ok please enough of DCT vs 6MT talk, it was fun at the beginning but it is getting boring and out of control now. Whatever DCT is, I chose 6MT for my specific reasons and if I had to choose again now, I would still get a manual M3!
Now back to topic, I can smothly drive except downshifting and rev matching. I want to hear more hints from 6MT drivers about rev matching and the best way to practice to get better at it.

Thanks
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      03-18-2011, 03:30 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_of_Persia View Post
Ok please enough of DCT vs 6MT talk, it was fun at the beginning but it is getting boring and out of control now. Whatever DCT is, I chose 6MT for my specific reasons and if I had to choose again now, I would still get a manual M3!
Now back to topic, I can smothly drive except downshifting and rev matching. I want to hear more hints from 6MT drivers about rev matching and the best way to practice to get better at it.

Thanks
The 1st advice on this thread is spot on. Dont attempt to rev 1000 rpm higher or looking at your rpm gauge. Just blip the throttle, get a feel of it. After a few times, you will know how much throttle you need to get a perfect revmatch while downshifting.
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      03-18-2011, 04:40 AM   #64
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also, if you gave $500 bucks laying around and dont know what to do with it. Buy a set of pulleys, it will make revmatching more fun.
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      03-18-2011, 04:40 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince_of_Persia View Post
Ok please enough of DCT vs 6MT talk, it was fun at the beginning but it is getting boring and out of control now. Whatever DCT is, I chose 6MT for my specific reasons and if I had to choose again now, I would still get a manual M3!
Now back to topic, I can smoothly drive except downshifting and rev matching. I want to hear more hints from 6MT drivers about rev matching and the best way to practice to get better at it.

Thanks
Sorry that made me laugh.

Anyhow, slowing down to a red light or stop sign is a perfect time to practice your rev-matching. You can go through the gears, 4-3-2, or skip gears like 5-3. As mentioned, the more you do it, the easier it gets.
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      03-18-2011, 04:53 AM   #66
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Quote:
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Sorry that made me laugh.

Anyhow, slowing down to a red light or stop sign is a perfect time to practice your rev-matching. You can go through the gears, 4-3-2, or skip gears like 5-3. As mentioned, the more you do it, the easier it gets.
I dont think skipping gears as you downshift is the best advice for the OP right now.
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