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      03-09-2011, 12:02 AM   #1
motorolla250
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Do Not Buy From Bmw Of Monrovia!

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Sorry if my writing isn’t the best. I’m still really worked up from today’s ordeal.

Short story: DO NOT BUY FROM BMW OF MONROVIA!!!!!!!!!!

Long story: I Called BMW of Monrovia last week about a 2008 E92 M3 that they have for sale. A salesman by the name of Joseph Ko picked up the phone and answered some one my questions…

What kind of condition is the paint in? Any paintwork whatsoever? “Paint is excellent, no paintwork”

How much tread is left on the tires? “The service department is replacing the rear tires right now”

Can I get pictures of the car? “Yes, I will email you pictures ASAP”

All sounds good so Joseph and I start negotiating. The next day, we agree on a price and start preparing paperwork over the phone (sight unseen).

Over the course of 3 days I call Joseph everyday asking for pictures and his excuse is always “oh its still really dirty and in the service department”. Finally the night before I’m scheduled to arrive, I receive pictures of the car but they’re so blurry that they might as well have been of a Honda Civic.

At this point my flight is booked from Seattle so I’m already at the point of no return.

I wake up at 4:00 AM to make the flight out to LA so I can pickup the car and drive it back home to the Bay Area, CA. Joseph picks me up from the airport and takes me to the dealer to sign the paperwork. He calls for the car to be brought up to the front so I can look it over. Shortly after, I head outside and start looking over the car…

First thing I notice is that the rear tires that got replaced magically un replaced themselves! I ask about it and get a nervous “oh they’re not new? The must have forgotten about it. I’ll ask the service department”.

I laughed in my head and started opening up the car and checking for tape marks and imperfections. While doing this I ask again, “so there has never been any paintwork on this car right?” and he responds “no”. No more than 30 seconds later, I feel/see tape marks and overspray on the lower part of the rear bumper and ask “so if there has never been any paintwork, then what do you call this?”. He replies nervously “ OH….well we re sprayed the bumper but its something we do to 80% of the used cars we get in because of road hazards and rocks on the road”.

At this point, I’ve completely lost it because I know this guy has just wasted a day of my life that I will never get back.

I ask for the Sales Manager, walk into his office and explain the situation. He tries to play dumb and belts out the same BS line about road hazards and rocks (keep in mind that this car has 20k miles). I call his bluff to which he has no comeback so I ask for a ride back to the airport before I loose my temper.

14hrs later… after being lied to by two people, booking two last minute flights, keeping my rental car an extra day in Seattle and taking a day off of work, I’m finally safe and sound back at home with no car and around $1000 less money in my pocket.

More info on the car itself... http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=498860

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.js...standard=false


The Snake list...

Sebastian Valente
General Manager


Devon Hsieh
Sales Manager


Joseph Ko
Sales Manager


Byron Brenkus
Client Advisor


Last edited by motorolla250; 02-17-2012 at 12:03 PM.
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      03-09-2011, 01:13 AM   #2
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wow I'm so sorry to hear this man.... I wonder if there's any way you can escalate this to BMW NA ?
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      03-09-2011, 01:17 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w00tw00t View Post
wow I'm so sorry to hear this man.... I wonder if there's any way you can escalate this to BMW NA ?
I'm going start with the GM and Owner of the dealership tomorrow. If I get nowhere with them, I'm going to take it up with corporate.

I plan on getting compensated for my time.
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      03-09-2011, 02:42 AM   #4
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Dude, ....i got 30k miles and my front bumper looks like WWII
It didnt look much better at 20k miles

I had a 2004 M3 and before i sold it at 45k miles ... i bought a new front bumper cover and had it painted so the new owner would have a clean bumper.

I dont know the details of this - but if i was you - i would make sure i see HIGH-RES pics before i fly ANYWHERE.

I bought a car from PA once .. sight unseen ...because the pics were so good.
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      03-09-2011, 03:06 AM   #5
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Honestly you sound ridiculously obsessive.

I did some checking into things and the car has an absolutaly dead clean carfax report, and it has had NO BMW repair parts ordered for it's vin number, meaning that it is almost entierly positive they actually repainted the bumper for the sake of repainting it.

You could have theoretically taken the car with a few rock chips as you wanted and it would have saved the dealer money. As for the rear tires, they probably did actually forget, these sorts of things are forgotten.

I've actually bought cars that have had undisclosed damage, and gotten bait and switches by dealers, you aren't in that situation, you're just being ridiculous and assuming you're being lied to out of your own paranoia. The simple fact is that the car had no additional damage or less value than what was described by the dealer. They simply forgot to instal something they intended to, and restored the car from natural wear and tear at their expense as a benefit to you.

It's unfortunate that the terms of the deal didn't work out exactly perfectly, but the simple fact is that if you took the car (assuming they fixed the tires issue) you would have had no damage compared to your original planned purchase. Legally speaking the damages you incured are your own fault for falsely assuming the dealer was lying about their reasons for repainting the bumper and getting unreasonably frustrated over a set of tires that could easily be installed and were a simple problem within the scope of reason and human error.

Like I said I am super picky, and I think you were unreasonable and jumped to conclusions. I've also been screwed over for real, actually, and where the person on the other end was trying to screw me over. Your situation is a disgrace to more serious situations.

Either way BMW dealers are very profitable and the last thing they want is for someone to even think they were screwed over, which is a level of care and attention that is a nice benefit of the brand, so I'm sure you'll be compensated even in an unreasonable situation and I'm sure you'll get the best, but chill out and don't be so ridiculous.
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      03-09-2011, 04:03 AM   #6
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Forget hi-res pics...how bout a pre-purchase inspection at an independent of your choice, prior to booking a ticket anywhere? Seems like common sense. I'm sorry to say it....

I also happen to agree...most dealerships WILL paint a bumper and still say "no paintwork"....not saying it's right, but it is a fact. I would also worry much less about a painted bumper than if anything else was painted.
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      03-09-2011, 10:05 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Honestly you sound ridiculously obsessive.

I did some checking into things and the car has an absolutaly dead clean carfax report, and it has had NO BMW repair parts ordered for it's vin number, meaning that it is almost entierly positive they actually repainted the bumper for the sake of repainting it.

You could have theoretically taken the car with a few rock chips as you wanted and it would have saved the dealer money. As for the rear tires, they probably did actually forget, these sorts of things are forgotten.

I've actually bought cars that have had undisclosed damage, and gotten bait and switches by dealers, you aren't in that situation, you're just being ridiculous and assuming you're being lied to out of your own paranoia. The simple fact is that the car had no additional damage or less value than what was described by the dealer. They simply forgot to instal something they intended to, and restored the car from natural wear and tear at their expense as a benefit to you.

It's unfortunate that the terms of the deal didn't work out exactly perfectly, but the simple fact is that if you took the car (assuming they fixed the tires issue) you would have had no damage compared to your original planned purchase. Legally speaking the damages you incured are your own fault for falsely assuming the dealer was lying about their reasons for repainting the bumper and getting unreasonably frustrated over a set of tires that could easily be installed and were a simple problem within the scope of reason and human error.

Like I said I am super picky, and I think you were unreasonable and jumped to conclusions. I've also been screwed over for real, actually, and where the person on the other end was trying to screw me over. Your situation is a disgrace to more serious situations.

Either way BMW dealers are very profitable and the last thing they want is for someone to even think they were screwed over, which is a level of care and attention that is a nice benefit of the brand, so I'm sure you'll be compensated even in an unreasonable situation and I'm sure you'll get the best, but chill out and don't be so ridiculous.
If what he said is true then the dealer outright lied to him two times. I wouldn't want to buy from them either.
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      03-09-2011, 10:31 AM   #8
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Quote:
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If what he said is true then the dealer outright lied to him two times. I wouldn't want to buy from them either.
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      03-09-2011, 11:02 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Honestly you sound ridiculously obsessive.

I did some checking into things and the car has an absolutaly dead clean carfax report, and it has had NO BMW repair parts ordered for it's vin number, meaning that it is almost entierly positive they actually repainted the bumper for the sake of repainting it.

You could have theoretically taken the car with a few rock chips as you wanted and it would have saved the dealer money. As for the rear tires, they probably did actually forget, these sorts of things are forgotten.

I've actually bought cars that have had undisclosed damage, and gotten bait and switches by dealers, you aren't in that situation, you're just being ridiculous and assuming you're being lied to out of your own paranoia. The simple fact is that the car had no additional damage or less value than what was described by the dealer. They simply forgot to instal something they intended to, and restored the car from natural wear and tear at their expense as a benefit to you.

It's unfortunate that the terms of the deal didn't work out exactly perfectly, but the simple fact is that if you took the car (assuming they fixed the tires issue) you would have had no damage compared to your original planned purchase. Legally speaking the damages you incured are your own fault for falsely assuming the dealer was lying about their reasons for repainting the bumper and getting unreasonably frustrated over a set of tires that could easily be installed and were a simple problem within the scope of reason and human error.

Like I said I am super picky, and I think you were unreasonable and jumped to conclusions. I've also been screwed over for real, actually, and where the person on the other end was trying to screw me over. Your situation is a disgrace to more serious situations.

Either way BMW dealers are very profitable and the last thing they want is for someone to even think they were screwed over, which is a level of care and attention that is a nice benefit of the brand, so I'm sure you'll be compensated even in an unreasonable situation and I'm sure you'll get the best, but chill out and don't be so ridiculous.

Carfax means ABSOLUTELY nothing. My 335i Had $30,000 in accident damage, repaired by an authorized BMW dealer, and the Carfax is clean (so is the Autocheck, BTW).
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      03-09-2011, 11:05 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mastek View Post
Dude, ....i got 30k miles and my front bumper looks like WWII
It didnt look much better at 20k miles

I had a 2004 M3 and before i sold it at 45k miles ... i bought a new front bumper cover and had it painted so the new owner would have a clean bumper.
Front bumper is one thing but the rear is another. Besides, thats not the point. The point is that they lied.
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      03-09-2011, 11:16 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Honestly you sound ridiculously obsessive.

I did some checking into things and the car has an absolutaly dead clean carfax report, and it has had NO BMW repair parts ordered for it's vin number, meaning that it is almost entierly positive they actually repainted the bumper for the sake of repainting it.

You could have theoretically taken the car with a few rock chips as you wanted and it would have saved the dealer money. As for the rear tires, they probably did actually forget, these sorts of things are forgotten.

I've actually bought cars that have had undisclosed damage, and gotten bait and switches by dealers, you aren't in that situation, you're just being ridiculous and assuming you're being lied to out of your own paranoia. The simple fact is that the car had no additional damage or less value than what was described by the dealer. They simply forgot to instal something they intended to, and restored the car from natural wear and tear at their expense as a benefit to you.

It's unfortunate that the terms of the deal didn't work out exactly perfectly, but the simple fact is that if you took the car (assuming they fixed the tires issue) you would have had no damage compared to your original planned purchase. Legally speaking the damages you incured are your own fault for falsely assuming the dealer was lying about their reasons for repainting the bumper and getting unreasonably frustrated over a set of tires that could easily be installed and were a simple problem within the scope of reason and human error.

Like I said I am super picky, and I think you were unreasonable and jumped to conclusions. I've also been screwed over for real, actually, and where the person on the other end was trying to screw me over. Your situation is a disgrace to more serious situations.

Either way BMW dealers are very profitable and the last thing they want is for someone to even think they were screwed over, which is a level of care and attention that is a nice benefit of the brand, so I'm sure you'll be compensated even in an unreasonable situation and I'm sure you'll get the best, but chill out and don't be so ridiculous.
You're right. I made the whole thing up in attempt to cover up my OCD and lack of knowledge as to what is right and what is wrong. I'll try keeping this to the point...

Carfax: CAN NEVER BE 100% TRUSTED. Plain and simple. I was in the car industry before I moved onto tech and saw this first hand.

Rear tires: How can someone forget to do something they've already done? I was told that the tires HAD been replaced. Not WILL, not MIGHT...but HAD. (Had is past tense)

Paint: I was told that there was "no paintwork of any kind". That is a flat out lie and cant be argued.

Pictures: While this I can not prove, I'm assuming that the whole time the car was "in detail", it was actually at the paint shop.
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      03-09-2011, 01:03 PM   #12
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I agree they should have told you about the paint work but if you have never seen what goes on at a VPC take a look at this.

Many brand new cars have had paint work done to them.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2006/12/22/di...m-the-factory/
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      03-09-2011, 01:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motorolla250 View Post
You're right. I made the whole thing up in attempt to cover up my OCD and lack of knowledge as to what is right and what is wrong. I'll try keeping this to the point...

Carfax: CAN NEVER BE 100% TRUSTED. Plain and simple. I was in the car industry before I moved onto tech and saw this first hand.

Rear tires: How can someone forget to do something they've already done? I was told that the tires HAD been replaced. Not WILL, not MIGHT...but HAD. (Had is past tense)

Paint: I was told that there was "no paintwork of any kind". That is a flat out lie and cant be argued.

Pictures: While this I can not prove, I'm assuming that the whole time the car was "in detail", it was actually at the paint shop.
Paint gauge and experienced eyes are best way to look for body work.
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      03-09-2011, 01:05 PM   #14
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I've been in and around the car industry too which is why besides CarFax (which can be spotty) I checked BMW's own system with the vin number provided on the website of the link with the help of a BMW employee friend. BMW's system is much more accurate than Carfax and BMW essentially uses it's strigently kept records to deny warranty claims on things that have been repaired on your car due to an accident. I've actually owned a BMW long ago that was crashed by the dealer on their lot, and the CarFax was dead clean, but in BMW's internal system the damage was listed. I ended up being compensated for it. What that means is I was in the exact situation that you think your M3 was in.

If your BMW was damaged beyond your expecations the dealer would have had to circumvent typical proceedures not to list it in their internal system. The internal system is for inter-dealer eyes only so they would have no reason to avoid it anyway (though asking a nice BMW employee will get you a look at the info as stated). It is extremely unlikely that you're so special you'd get the one BMW dealer that is so shady they do things counter to policy to hide something the customer would never even see.

If you've worked in the car industry you know that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing constantly. You weren't "lied" to that the rear tires had to be replaced as a scam. If the tires are as you described, they need to be replaced by law AND by the rules at most dealers as a safety issue. Your sales rep had every reason to beleive that his own dealer was following their own policy and the law. The service team simply forgot at some point.

As for pictures, sales people get about 100 calls a day. I've walked into Porsche dealers and talked to the manager and told them I will buy a certain used Porsche they just got on the lot in cash, but I just need them to e-mail me the service records. Needless to say I was not e-mailed anything, and didn't buy the car. This is the worst example but I've been in dozens of other similar situations. The attitude of most dealers being very reluctant to provide any information on a car may seem like something that raises red flags, but the reality is that the sales people have so many customers that they barely remember people.
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Last edited by Legion5; 03-09-2011 at 01:15 PM.
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      03-09-2011, 01:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3Bahn View Post
Paint gauge and experienced eyes are best way to look for body work.
I had a paint gauge on me but you cant get an accurate reading off plastic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
I've been in and around the car industry too which is why besides CarFax (which can be spotty) I checked BMW's own system with the vin number provided on the website of the link with the help of a BMW employee friend. BMW's system is much more accurate than Carfax and BMW essentially uses it's strigently kept records to deny warranty claims on things that have been repaired on your car due to an accident. I've actually owned a BMW long ago that was crashed by the dealer on their lot, and the CarFax was dead clean, but in BMW's internal system the damage was listed. I ended up being compensated for it. What that means is I was in the exact situation that you think your M3 was in.

If your BMW was damaged beyond your expecations the dealer would have had to circumvent typical proceedures not to list it in their internal system. The internal system is for inter-dealer eyes only so they would have no reason to avoid it anyway (though asking a nice BMW employee will get you a look at the info as stated). It is extremely unlikely that you're so special you'd get the one BMW dealer that is so shady they do things counter to policy to hide something the customer would never even see.

If you've worked in the car industry you know that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing constantly. You weren't "lied" to that the rear tires had to be replaced as a scam. If the tires are as you described, they need to be replaced by law AND by the rules at most dealers as a safety issue. Your sales rep had every reason to beleive that his own dealer was following their own policy and the law. The service team simply forgot at some point.

As for pictures, sales people get about 100 calls a day. I've walked into Porsche dealers and talked to the manager and told them I will buy a certain used Porsche they just got on the lot in cash, but I just need them to e-mail me the service records. Needless to say I was not e-mailed anything, and didn't buy the car. This is the worst example but I've been in dozens of other similar situations. The attitude of most dealers being very reluctant to provide any information on a car may seem like something that raises red flags, but the reality is that the sales people have so many customers that they barely remember people.
Dude, you're missing the point. I'm not trying to argue with anyone over Carfax or BMW's internal system. What I'm trying to do is lay out the facts so nobody gets burned. THEY LIED! plain and simple.

You were not there. You didn't see the car. You did not talk to the salesman. You did not hear his voice change and see his demeanor when confronted with the issues. Therefor all you can do is speculate.
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      03-09-2011, 02:03 PM   #16
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I had a paint gauge on me but you cant get an accurate reading off plastic.
I know that is why I said "and eyes"
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      03-09-2011, 02:08 PM   #17
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I know that is why I said "and eyes"
Agreed 100%. Just wanted to inform others that don't know about paint gauges.
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      03-09-2011, 02:36 PM   #18
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but is it so bad they resprayed the bumper? its not like they resprayed it to hide an accident. if its truly caused from rock chips, why is it so bad it got resprayed (if done properly, it will look like new). or are you that into original paint and want to keep the car as a collector?
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      03-09-2011, 02:41 PM   #19
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Whatever it is, it's shitty feeling.
Spent a day and a lot of money with liar car sale people.
Coming back with broken dream.
At the end of the day, they lied.

Paint, it's maybe excusable lie in certain level (as long as it's never been in any sort of accident). But tires so so F-ing BS.

I would buy from them either. No need to help dealer who trying to trick you to make money.
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      03-09-2011, 02:51 PM   #20
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The bottom line is that they lied, plain and simple. How can you trust anything they say when you know they've already lied more than once. And when you ask they guy if ANY paint work was done, he says "no" and then you point something out and 2 seconds later he says they did some paint work, how the hell do you give them $50K?

Legion5, get off his case. The guy knows the biz, you're not gonna teach him anything he doesn't already know, trust me.
He's already pointed out at least 2 scams on here for other cars before this episode. The guy is doing us all a favor!

I'm sure he would have taken the car if there were a few rock chips, etc. But tell me again, how do you get rock chips on the rear bumper exactly?
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      03-09-2011, 02:59 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legion5 View Post
Honestly you sound ridiculously obsessive.

I did some checking into things and the car has an absolutaly dead clean carfax report, and it has had NO BMW repair parts ordered for it's vin number, meaning that it is almost entierly positive they actually repainted the bumper for the sake of repainting it.
WOW really? you believe in carfax?

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      03-09-2011, 03:13 PM   #22
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just curious, what price did you agree on?
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