BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > E90/E92 M3 Technical Topics > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis
 
Lux Angel Eyes
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      02-25-2011, 06:08 PM   #45
Richbot
Colonel
30
Rep
2,128
Posts

 
Drives: Jerez Black E90
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: STL

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonteCarloM3 View Post
i'm sorry you're a hater on my MonteCarlo M3, i bought it because i liked it. i'm not making fun of anyone else's car here, your comments are not appropriate. grow up son.

if you think lowering springs have rebound/damping, then you really don't know what springs are. kwv3's give you both rebound and and compression damping control. oops, sp mistake, i'm not perfect like some people here are. Here is the link for you to read and learn more.
You're the one who mentioned damping in relation to a drop. Son. "A drop" is not coilovers, and all you've talked about in this thread up to this point is "a nice drop," which has nothing at all to do with KW's or their compression and rebound adjustability. Your words, not mine, and not taken out of context. Forgive me if I assumed that you had difficulty understanding the difference between springs and dampers based on your posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MonteCarloM3
And yes, almost every OEM sub 100K car from the manufacturer needs a drop if you want it to look good and perform better. Facts of life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MonteCarloM3
other than the fact that the car looks way better with a nice drop??

AND do you really need convincing that a lower center of gravity and firmer shock rebound/dampening improves vehicle handling?
As for your paint, well, I wasn't "hating", son, I was making a joke at your (considerable) expense. Monte Carlo Blue is an awesome color.
__________________

Last edited by Richbot; 02-25-2011 at 06:20 PM.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2011, 07:17 PM   #46
RandyB
Lieutenant Colonel
RandyB's Avatar
United_States
15
Rep
1,504
Posts

 
Drives: '03 330i, '09 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Texas

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by aajami View Post
Thanks! I'm familiar with your retrofit and applaud you for being a pioneer. I can't wait to see how you like your exhaust - I'm a big fan of OEM!
__________________
'09 E92 M3 6MT | Alpine White | Black Leather | EDC | CL Trim | 19s
'03 E46 330i 6MT | Electric Red | Black Leather | ZSP | Bi-Xenons
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2011, 07:23 PM   #47
eluder
First Lieutenant
4
Rep
309
Posts

 
Drives: m
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: home

iTrader: (0)

OP, I feel the same way about spacers now. Looks great as stock.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2011, 07:40 PM   #48
jackka
New Member
2
Rep
9
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 Camaro
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Alabama

iTrader: (0)

always wondered the point myself.

"If I wanted a stiff ride and no clearance I'd buy a GT3."

haha, i love that line.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2011, 07:55 PM   #49
aajami
Brigadier General
aajami's Avatar
United_States
65
Rep
4,092
Posts

 
Drives: Space Gray '09 E92 M3
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Manhattan Beach, CA

iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyB View Post
Thanks! I'm familiar with your retrofit and applaud you for being a pioneer. I can't wait to see how you like your exhaust - I'm a big fan of OEM!
Thank you, sir. I prefer to stick with OEM whenever possible as well. I'll post impressions of the exhaust as soon as it's on the car.
__________________
'09 E92 M3: Space Gray, Black, Carbon Leather | ZTP 2MK ZPP 2MT 6FL | link 1 / link 2
Mods: M Performance exhaust | ZCP retrofit | Euro airbox | GTS DCT flash | 240J ECU flash | LCI Euro taillights | CRT lip | OEM alarm retrofit | Space Gray bumper plugs | BMW Performance: Mk. II spoiler / Mk. II non-electronic steering wheel / mirror caps / front grilles / side gills / intake louvers / emblem
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2011, 08:04 PM   #50
Brosef
Colonel
Brosef's Avatar
United_States
31
Rep
2,265
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Chicago

iTrader: (3)

dropped on KWV3's here. I'm not too low though - I went with KW's recommended specs. car rides a little stiffer, but not so much that it would be a nuisance in daily driving. if you ask me, the M3 is a bit soft from the factory - even sport mode of EDC rode softer than comfort mode of my 997 carrera. as far as clearance goes, I haven't had any issues. depends on where you live I suppose, but here in Chicago I haven't yet had an occasion where I was wincing going up a driveway or anything. sure, I make an extra effort to approach inclines at an angle, but I haven't scraped once yet. most importantly, however, I can honestly say that there is a noticeable improvement in handling and stability, especially with changing direction.

as far as aesthetics go, I think most would agree that the M3 starts to look a bit awkwardly tall when its wheels are pushed out (either through adding spacers or going with aftermarket wheels that sit more flush), which is why people usually insert the "needs a drop" comment in the case where someone has added wheels or spacers. not to mention, doing either of the aforementioned is typically for cosmetic purposes, so it's presupposed that anyone who has made that move might also be interested in "completing the look."
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2011, 08:24 PM   #51
sensi09
Lieutenant Colonel
18
Rep
1,767
Posts

 
Drives: .
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: socal

iTrader: (1)

Without a lip, the M3 has a quite a bit of clearance at stock height, so that shouldn't scare anyone away if they really want to lower. With just springs though, I'd question if there is really much of a difference in terms of handling. Lower center of gravity sure and slightly higher spring rates, but I think much of the "improved handling" is psychological. I've lowered a few cars with just springs, and sure it looks good, but have never been satisfied in terms of performance or ride.

If I were to lower the car, I'd want springs and dampers to be matched, like coilovers or even the ZCP suspension. Don't see myself spending the money on an OEM suspension versus aftermarket though.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2011, 10:14 PM   #52
Mr.Bimmer
Lieutenant
Mr.Bimmer's Avatar
14
Rep
435
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 E90 M3 (sold)
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Orange County, Ca

iTrader: (5)

Sorry for the poor phone pic, but this is all I have. This is my car on the Eibach pro-kit. So far I'm very pleased with them. Pleased because A) it rides close to stock, B) the ride is firmed up "a little bit" and C) I have yet to feel any weird suspension issues driving with the springs. I still need more seat time with them and I'll post my review. The trick to lowering these cars, as said by another forum member on here a while back (Radiation Joe) is not to lower the car too much. There's no such thing (and I'm not saying anyone in this post has said this) as having the car dumped and retaining the optimal handling in OEM fashion. I can tell you though, with my springs, proper alignment, and fresh Potenza RE-11's, I can take the turns a little faster. The Eibach doesn't lower the car a whole lot more than OEM.

Appreciate 0
      02-25-2011, 10:49 PM   #53
JIO
Captain
12
Rep
627
Posts

 
Drives: '09 Space Gray E92 M3 w/DCT
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Eugene, Oregon

iTrader: (0)

It's so interesting how using lowering springs make all the difference to ride look...and then totally destroy all the millions of dollars BMW spent testing and retesting suspensions. I'm surprised BMW doesn't talk to the tuners as they can make lowering springs in 20 minutes to make the car "perfect", thus passing the savings on to us.

With the ZCP, BMW did more than just lower the car 10mm. They retuned the entire suspension once again to tweak the system into the best handling car that it is. Yea, it probably handles better than the "normal' M3, like mine, but very few of could ever extract the performance out of either of them to tell a difference. If one did a back-to -back test, 9999 out of 10,000 couldn't tell them apart.

As for ride stance, it's all a matter of taste. If you're under 25, the car needs to be slammed so you can't see the tops of the tires in the fenderwell. If you're between 25 and 40, you want it slammed so you can just see the top of the tire in the tirewell. and if you're over 40 and including the other 28 people who might even care about ride height, they're going to leave it just as it is.

It's people's own money, so if they want to spend thousands on new exhausts, suspension parts, and carbon fiber hoods and trunks, it's fine. I'd rather just drive the best car in the world and be able to carry on a conversation with my passenger at highway speeds without wearing a two-way headset, watching my hood flap about, and having my fillings rattle out of my mouth.

Top Gear summed it up a few weeks ago when they tested 3 E30 used BMW's. "If the car has been lowered, run away from the deal as fast as you can". It was in reference to one of the cars that was lowered was all over the track when they tested it. It was so bad at handling.

But I digress...he he.
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2011, 11:43 PM   #54
piloto
Captain
10
Rep
835
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 E90 M3 - AW/FR
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Orange County, CA

iTrader: (0)

This has been debated ad nausuem, but here goes...

Lowered CG, higher spring rates (in some cases non-linear) and more damping in compression and/or rebound does not automatically translate in improved handling, nor improved grip.

Adjustability for a suspension truly provide the driver (and race engineer) the ability to set the car up properly for a particular driving style and track layout, and in some cases, it might help with gaining an aerodynamic advantage (assuming ground effects and compromise made in the name of ground effects).

The bottom line is that ANY suspension design is a compromise. That applies to handling as well, which is tbasically he dynamic behavior of the car while in motion, in particular in transient stages such as cornering, but not exlcusing acceleration and braking (think anti-squat and anti-dive suspension geometry). One also has to consider any car's handling ability under maximum load (e.g. full of passengers and cargo), tire wear, road condtions (when's the last time the road you drove on was as smooth as some race tracks? And this is not relating to ride comfort...), roll centers (and roll axis), steering geometry and how steering input impacts movement in the suspension, weather conditions, driver ability, etc. All of these parameters mean that to gain more of "this," you often discard more of "that."

So, to keep this post somewhat readble, a multi-adjustable coilover, even one with preloaded springs, does not automatically translate into better handling. Better handling is not a universal term anyway. It might be better for your driving style, but not mine. But it does give you the ability to adjust it, and if you're into running your car in a race and will gather data lap after lap, and make adjustments until your as fast as you feel possible, it makes sense for you. Short of a person going that far to ensure their set-up is optimal for that track on that day, coilovers or any other aftermarket suspension that lowers your car are simply enahcing the aesthetics of your car (for most eyes, including mine).
Appreciate 0
      02-25-2011, 11:56 PM   #55
Richbot
Colonel
30
Rep
2,128
Posts

 
Drives: Jerez Black E90
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: STL

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by piloto View Post
This has been debated ad nausuem, but here goes...

Lowered CG, higher spring rates (in some cases non-linear) and more damping in compression and/or rebound does not automatically translate in improved handling, nor improved grip.

Adjustability for a suspension truly provide the driver (and race engineer) the ability to set the car up properly for a particular driving style and track layout, and in some cases, it might help with gaining an aerodynamic advantage (assuming ground effects and compromise made in the name of ground effects).

The bottom line is that ANY suspension design is a compromise. That applies to handling as well, which is tbasically he dynamic behavior of the car while in motion, in particular in transient stages such as cornering, but not exlcusing acceleration and braking (think anti-squat and anti-dive suspension geometry). One also has to consider any car's handling ability under maximum load (e.g. full of passengers and cargo), tire wear, road condtions (when's the last time the road you drove on was as smooth as some race tracks? And this is not relating to ride comfort...), roll centers (and roll axis), steering geometry and how steering input impacts movement in the suspension, weather conditions, driver ability, etc. All of these parameters mean that to gain more of "this," you often discard more of "that."

So, to keep this post somewhat readble, a multi-adjustable coilover, even one with preloaded springs, does not automatically translate into better handling. Better handling is not a universal term anyway. It might be better for your driving style, but not mine. But it does give you the ability to adjust it, and if you're into running your car in a race and will gather data lap after lap, and make adjustments until your as fast as you feel possible, it makes sense for you. Short of a person going that far to ensure their set-up is optimal for that track on that day, coilovers or any other aftermarket suspension that lowers your car are simply enahcing the aesthetics of your car (for most eyes, including mine).
+1, especially the "ad nauseum" part.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 12:22 AM   #56
OC3
Havin' a blast!
OC3's Avatar
United_States
53
Rep
4,819
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 M3 E92 Jerez Blk DCT ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SoCal

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I'm a patent attorney
No wonder you won't touch the roundels.
__________________

BRP CW13 1:56 | CVR CW 2:01 | CVR CCW 2:02 | ACS 1:53 | WSIR 1:34
2013 E92 M3 Jerez Black DCT ZCP | JRZ RS Pro | Brembo | Endless | Volk TE37 18x10.5 squared | NT01/TD/ContiGrandAm | no other mods, nor weight shavings
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 12:35 AM   #57
kitw
Colonel
kitw's Avatar
61
Rep
2,632
Posts

 
Drives: 2015 MW M3/2014 Boxster S
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (14)

You know what is funny?

Go park your M3 next to a 335i. You'll be saying, "Dang, I need a drop!"

It's funny, my wife's 335i had as much fender gap as my car did... AFTER I put on the Dinan Stage 1 on the M3.
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 12:37 AM   #58
dexx
Second Lieutenant
3
Rep
263
Posts

 
Drives: 05 LGT w/AVO380, '11 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: MA

iTrader: (0)

ZCP scrapes everywhere... lower? blah.. If you want a lower CG get a Subaru or a GT40.

I'm sure you could get someone to build you a low rider. Complete with circus music.
__________________
2011 E90 M3 ZP2 ZCV ZCW ZCP (for teh fastAr)
2005 LGT, AVO380 Turbo, a zillion other mods, ECU tuning by me.
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 01:32 AM   #59
ES_TRADER
Colonel
68
Rep
2,699
Posts

 
Drives: 328i, 335i, M3, 535i, X5, 36M
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: OC

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2014 Ford Raptor  [0.00]
2012 328i E92  [5.00]
2013 X5  [0.00]
2013 335i F30  [4.00]
1990 Toyota Previa  [0.00]
1997 E36 M3  [5.00]
2011 E92 M3  [0.00]
2011 535i  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by kitw View Post
You know what is funny?

Go park your M3 next to a 335i. You'll be saying, "Dang, I need a drop!"

It's funny, my wife's 335i had as much fender gap as my car did... AFTER I put on the Dinan Stage 1 on the M3.
+1 soooo true

my stock 2011 e92 3er fender gap is exactly the same as the m3 zcp...as i measured it..also when looking at both cars from behind side by side, the m3 is taller or higher by at least 1.5 inches...maybe because of 19s vs 17s?

maybe zcp isnt even lowered at all...they just advertised it that way as a selling point....
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 01:32 AM   #60
MonteCarloM3
Banned
MonteCarloM3's Avatar
Uzbekistan
13
Rep
577
Posts

 
Drives: a shitty M3
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Uranus

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richbot View Post
As for your paint, well, I wasn't "hating", son, I was making a joke at your (considerable) expense. Monte Carlo Blue is an awesome color.
ur funny, keep up the posts, i like to be amused.
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 03:01 AM   #61
tlr
Second Lieutenant
tlr's Avatar
United_States
10
Rep
294
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 M3 E93
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Francisco, CA

iTrader: (0)

I'd rather have spacers pushing the wheels outward than a drop moving them upward.

IMO there should be equal space all around the wheel between the wheel and fender.

Since the radius of the wheel and fender is different, dropping the car such that the top is flush looks terrible.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 03:45 AM   #62
spyderco10
Colonel
spyderco10's Avatar
United_States
34
Rep
2,425
Posts

 
Drives: AW E92 M3 6MT
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Honolulu, HI

iTrader: (0)

I think the M3 with stock wheels and stock ride height looks perfectly fine. But when you start modding it, with aftermarket wheels especially, you NEED a drop, if only for aesthetics.
__________________
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
- John 3:16
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 05:06 AM   #63
BMW08M3
GSD ( GET SH!T DONE )
BMW08M3's Avatar
United_States
2
Rep
39
Posts

 
Drives: M3 E92 VF Engineering V8
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Orlando , fl

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Check Out Ast Suspension 4200 ! Very Nice
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 09:35 AM   #64
knifegun
Major
knifegun's Avatar
Turkmenistan
24
Rep
1,069
Posts

 
Drives: M3
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Where the weather is always the same

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by klammer View Post
I went with dinan stg 3 and thought it actually improved handling and feel and did that after my first track day with the car. The car handles great stock, but at the track a few weakness come out and wanted to address that while maintaining EDC, and feel dinan is more of a performance over aesthetic mod. Like a bit less fender gap but the "slammed" look is a bit much for a street car
Completely agree. I have Dinan springs. While the suspension is great for the street, it is soft for track use. Dinan does not produce much of a "drop" but does improve the handling. With that said, I still wish EDC could make the car stiffer on the track as you can feel the weight of the car. The fact the brake pads melt is not a good thing either.
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 09:56 AM   #65
Georgeair
Captain
10
Rep
757
Posts

 
Drives: '08 Melbourne E92 M3
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: McKinney, TX

iTrader: (2)

Agreed, on all counts.

__________________
Objects in mirror are slower than they appear.
Appreciate 0
      02-26-2011, 10:21 AM   #66
MonteCarloM3
Banned
MonteCarloM3's Avatar
Uzbekistan
13
Rep
577
Posts

 
Drives: a shitty M3
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Uranus

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by esquire View Post
I'm a patent attorney so I thought I'd chime in here - I for one love your paint job Monte CarloM3 .

Back on topic, I agree completely with the OP. Dropping the car really does make using the car as a DD appreciably more difficult - which is why I haven't dropped my car. But I have to say, even knowing this fact, I find myself dangerously tempted by the looks of a nice drop. It really does look THAT much better.
shanks esquire.
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:43 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST