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      02-25-2011, 11:53 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malekreza11 View Post
I agree.

DLSJ5, you are asking to be a part of some very big company power/speed wise.

Do it right, spend the time to get the lower compression pistons in there. Build the motor the right way, by the right people in the correct environment.

Since you are in there, I would go for a displacement bump as well. There are plenty of solutions out there for this as well.

Good luck bro, let me know if I can offer you any help.
Hey Malek,

I think you and others are right, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, I'm just not sure enough, I have yet to see a built motor clocked with thousands of miles on it, and from what I've seen in general with built motors on my friends cars, I'm just not sure I want to go that route.

I'm actually getting a motor that is already assembled, Gintani just needs to install the TB's and accessories. I appreciate the offer!
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      02-25-2011, 11:54 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by huangover View Post
amazing that gintani is picking up the tab on this. i have never heard of a tuner take care of a customers car in this way... and I have personally experienced this and have had many friends blow motors. this is part of the game when you push the limits. race cars rebuild motors after 50 hours to 100 hours and we're not even talking about FI vehicles. anyone who expects to run their car hard and make 100k miles is dreaming in the first place (either that or they aren't driving hard enough). i would however reconsider running 91 and meth. I've seen enough meth system failures on all types of cars, and then you are basically left with crappy 91. Not worth it imo. run good race gas, or turn the boost down.

don't let the small digs get to you, in terms of forum sampling, a very small percentage of people actually disclose catastrophic failures. thanks for sharing the good and the bad so all of us can learn from your experience. good luck on the rebuild and look forward to seeing you on the road ahead soon!
Great points, agreed on all counts, appreciate the input Brotha.
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      02-25-2011, 12:16 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by e36jakeo View Post
They claimed 2 overrevs to 8700 rpm which, given , the fact it can run to 8400 all day, and many chips allow it to go to 8600 or higher, should not cause engine failure.
How can that happen when the rev limiter kicks in at 8,400? Only way is a mechanical overrev on a stock car. And 300 rpm doesn't seem like much, but you're not talking a 7K redline here. At 8,400, it's already pushing the limits. If the engine had never been overrevved, then I'd be more worried. And yes, I fully understand the bearings are marginal on '08 engines; hope mine aren't bad, but that potential problem is what might push me to sell the car before warranty expires. We'll see.
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      02-27-2011, 06:11 PM   #114
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Hey Drew,
Good to hear that Gintani is taking care of you. You ran a good chunk of miles and posted tons of races with their kit which shows how fast this kit is. Hope you guys get to the bottom of this soon and get your car back up and running.

Anyone know if E85 conversion is doable on the S65?
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      02-27-2011, 08:19 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
How can that happen when the rev limiter kicks in at 8,400? Only way is a mechanical overrev on a stock car. And 300 rpm doesn't seem like much, but you're not talking a 7K redline here. At 8,400, it's already pushing the limits. If the engine had never been overrevved, then I'd be more worried. And yes, I fully understand the bearings are marginal on '08 engines; hope mine aren't bad, but that potential problem is what might push me to sell the car before warranty expires. We'll see.

8400RPM is not pushing the limit. There is the same sort off safety factor built into the S65's redline as there is on any other BMW engine.

By the way, Rod Bearings are the same part number from 08 to present...... only the main bearings were changed midway through 08 production.

Rod bearing part numbers for all years of E90/92/93 M3: 11247841703 Red ; 11247841702 Blue

Crankshaft with bearings part numbers up to 10/08 : 11217841658 Ended ; After 10/08: 11210443639

There are Green, Yellow and Violet codes for the main bearings and Blue and Red codes for the rod bearings. All of the main bearing part numbers have two numbers for bearing shells, one for up to 10/2008 and one after 10/2008. The rod bearing numbers have no supercession at 10/2008 showing that they are indeed the same bearings that are in all S65's regardless of year.

All of the color codes shows me that the cranks are measured and matched to sets of bearings before being shipped/installed in an engine. The fact that the crank and bearing are different don't necessarily mean the bearings were bad, it could just signify a change in supplier of the crank and bearings. Manufacturers change parts all the time and it is no big deal. Anyone with a 2008 shouldn't get overly worried about the change in the parts.
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      02-27-2011, 08:58 PM   #116
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And 300 rpm doesn't seem like much, but you're not talking a 7K redline here. At 8,400, it's already pushing the limits.
Pushing the limit based on what? If BMW puts a rev limiter at 8,400 rpms, do you know what happens at 8,700 rpms? Nothing. BMW could never leave themselves such a small margin for error. Think about it; where does the real damage come from on an over-rev anyway? Valve float. That's not happening on this engine at 8,700.

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I fully understand the bearings are marginal on '08 engines; hope mine aren't bad, but that potential problem is what might push me to sell the car before warranty expires. We'll see.
I think the bearing issue is way over-stated on this forum.
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      02-28-2011, 01:12 AM   #117
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Pushing the limit based on what? If BMW puts a rev limiter at 8,400 rpms, do you know what happens at 8,700 rpms? Nothing. BMW could never leave themselves such a small margin for error. Think about it; where does the real damage come from on an over-rev anyway? Valve float. That's not happening on this engine at 8,700.



I think the bearing issue is way over-stated on this forum.
I totally agree, one or two guys hear a noise in their engines and all of a sudden we have a bearing issue. I think people are just gun shy after the bearing failures on the 2001 E46 M3's. As far as I am concerned there is no bearing issue with the S65 at all and it has proved itself as a pretty reliable engine.
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      02-28-2011, 01:24 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
I totally agree, one or two guys hear a noise in their engines and all of a sudden we have a bearing issue. I think people are just gun shy after the bearing failures on the 2001 E46 M3's. As far as I am concerned there is no bearing issue with the S65 at all and it has proved itself as a pretty reliable engine.
People who have experienced it firsthand will have experienced it, people who haven't will have not, people who know will know, and people who don't won't.




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      02-28-2011, 02:59 AM   #119
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People who have experienced it firsthand will have experienced it, people who haven't will have not, people who know will know, and people who don't won't.



Very few people have experienced it and very few more will experience it. Most of the people who have experienced it have been modified and detonation was most likely the cause. Like you said "people who know will know, and people who don't won't". Sadly the majority of people just don't know!
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      02-28-2011, 04:09 AM   #120
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Until Gintani tears it down, all we can do is speculate. If detonation was a factor, it'll be apparent. If the rod was over-stressed and failed, it'll be apparent. If the bearings are wearing prematurely, it'll be apparent.

Until then, I'll pick a number between 1 and 10 and you all can argue exactly which number it is with this bizarre air of certainty...
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      02-28-2011, 01:09 PM   #121
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BMRLVR, the potential for bad main bearings in '08 cars (as well as some '11s) is REAL, as it has happened to several stock cars, so you can't say it's not an issue 'at all'. Granted, the chance of that happening is minimal, but it's there, whether you admit/like it or not. Am I paranoid about it? Of course not. Am I worried about it under warranty? Nope. Am I worried to keep car after warrant because of it? Yes, but mostly because the typical mileage where it surfaces is higher than I'll have when warranty runs out. But more than that, I worry that not even trained techs can catch many problems the M3 has and has had. Many dealers still don't get the idle valve issue right until the second or third time, and only because hundreds of other cars have had it. BMW did a poor job of designing the troubleshooting capabilities on this car. It's a major inconvenience under warranty. It'd be a nightmare without it. BUt sill considering keeping it; I'll evaluate that when the time comes in about 2 years. Later.
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      02-28-2011, 02:11 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LateBraking View Post
People who have experienced it firsthand will have experienced it, people who haven't will have not, people who know will know, and people who don't won't.



Very few people have experienced it and very few more will experience it. Most of the people who have experienced it have been modified and detonation was most likely the cause. Like you said "people who know will know, and people who don't won't". Sadly the majority of people just don't know!
Be careful of what you say cause when I commented about this topic on an other site I got chewed up and got hit with negative points ..
Btw I said detonation was the probable cause.... And I still stand by it
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      02-28-2011, 02:20 PM   #123
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The S65 connecting rods are A LOT stronger than the pistons. If it were detonation it most likely would have cracked ring lands (ie: Tightie & Jon Martin's issues with GPower) .

Quote:
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Be careful of what you say cause when I commented about this topic on an other site I got chewed up and got hit with negative points ..
Btw I said detonation was the probable cause.... And I still stand by it
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      02-28-2011, 02:21 PM   #124
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I find it hard to believe That Gintani will post up pics or even disclose for that matter that is was caused due to Detonation ( that's if detonation was the cause ).... That's like saying the tune wasn't good ....
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      02-28-2011, 02:44 PM   #125
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best of luck, subscribed to hear more updates
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      02-28-2011, 03:50 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdu4ea View Post
Until Gintani tears it down, all we can do is speculate. If detonation was a factor, it'll be apparent. If the rod was over-stressed and failed, it'll be apparent. If the bearings are wearing prematurely, it'll be apparent.

Until then, I'll pick a number between 1 and 10 and you all can argue exactly which number it is with this bizarre air of certainty...
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      02-28-2011, 05:05 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by elp_jc View Post
BMRLVR, the potential for bad main bearings in '08 cars (as well as some '11s) is REAL, as it has happened to several stock cars, so you can't say it's not an issue 'at all'. Granted, the chance of that happening is minimal, but it's there, whether you admit/like it or not. Am I paranoid about it? Of course not. Am I worried about it under warranty? Nope. Am I worried to keep car after warrant because of it? Yes, but mostly because the typical mileage where it surfaces is higher than I'll have when warranty runs out. But more than that, I worry that not even trained techs can catch many problems the M3 has and has had. Many dealers still don't get the idle valve issue right until the second or third time, and only because hundreds of other cars have had it. BMW did a poor job of designing the troubleshooting capabilities on this car. It's a major inconvenience under warranty. It'd be a nightmare without it. BUt sill considering keeping it; I'll evaluate that when the time comes in about 2 years. Later.
My friend, I build engines for a living. Bearings usually are not "bad" the engine oiling system or some other issue usually causes bearing failure. Understand that there is supposed to be no metal to metal contact between bearings under normal operation. The journal/bearings are separated by a film of oil, when you get boundary lubrication or direct metal on metal contact (can be caused by the extreme pressures created by detonation/excessive cylinder pressures from excessive boost in a high compression engine) you have problems in a hurry. If the bearings were a problem, they would not be still using the same parts.

Part of the solution on the E46 main bearing failure was to upgrade to the 10w60 TWS engine oil. I am willing to bet this was an attempt to get a but more oil pressure to ensure the oil film did not get pushed out of the bearings/journals after the engines were repaired changed.

Another possible cause for the E46 and any current main/rod bearing issues are engines that slipped through the cracks with bearings that were too tight on the main and rod journals. If the oil clearance between bearings is insufficient it also can cause big problems.

For how many E9X M3's there are out there the bearings can be considered a non issue. There have been extremely few issues compared to the number of cars in service.

The M3 is a car that is built by people. It will never be completely trouble free since mistakes in assembly and measurements can be easily made. In fact it is an extremely reliable car. If main bearings/rod bearings were an issue than all of the cars running around with close to 50% additional horsepower over stock would have engines failed for long ago.

The rod bearing/rod failure in this thread was due to high boost and use of meth injection instead of running lower boost that the engine could handle without detonating. I don't want to make this into a Gintani or AA bashing thread but running water/meth injection is a sign that you are running too much boost and your manifold temperature is too high. Any company that chooses to run a setup like this is going to suffer more failures down the road.
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      02-28-2011, 06:45 PM   #128
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My friend, I build engines for a living. Bearings usually are not "bad" the engine oiling system or some other issue usually causes bearing failure. Understand that there is supposed to be no metal to metal contact between bearings under normal operation. The journal/bearings are separated by a film of oil, when you get boundary lubrication or direct metal on metal contact (can be caused by the extreme pressures created by detonation/excessive cylinder pressures from excessive boost in a high compression engine) you have problems in a hurry. If the bearings were a problem, they would not be still using the same parts.

Part of the solution on the E46 main bearing failure was to upgrade to the 10w60 TWS engine oil. I am willing to bet this was an attempt to get a but more oil pressure to ensure the oil film did not get pushed out of the bearings/journals after the engines were repaired changed.

Another possible cause for the E46 and any current main/rod bearing issues are engines that slipped through the cracks with bearings that were too tight on the main and rod journals. If the oil clearance between bearings is insufficient it also can cause big problems.

For how many E9X M3's there are out there the bearings can be considered a non issue. There have been extremely few issues compared to the number of cars in service.

The M3 is a car that is built by people. It will never be completely trouble free since mistakes in assembly and measurements can be easily made. In fact it is an extremely reliable car. If main bearings/rod bearings were an issue than all of the cars running around with close to 50% additional horsepower over stock would have engines failed for long ago.

The rod bearing/rod failure in this thread was due to high boost and use of meth injection instead of running lower boost that the engine could handle without detonating. I don't want to make this into a Gintani or AA bashing thread but running water/meth injection is a sign that you are running too much boost and your manifold temperature is too high. Any company that chooses to run a setup like this is going to suffer more failures down the road.
Well said Jamie - people forget sometimes that this is a car forum and a few issues are magnified. I would bet the majority of M3 owners do not belong to forums and I would also bet that there have been issues that members have experienced that have not been highlighted on this forum. I always laugh when I hear comments like "that is so played out" or "why isn't XYZ company chiming in on this issue" etc. Last time I went to the dealership, I didn't see a board that listed what every M3 had been serviced for, and my SA didn't let me know of all the known "issues" with these cars. But people on this forum seem to think they are owed that for some reason from other people. If something happens to my car, it should be up to me to let people know, not a dealership, or a shop or a vendor.

IMO people need to breathe a little and not speculate and let the facts speak for themselves.

Once again Drew, hope you get your car back on the road soon.
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      02-28-2011, 08:53 PM   #129
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Not trying to hijack the thread, but I was wondering if it's normal to hear a slight ticking at with load on the engine at lower rpm (up to 3k) at operating temperature. I can hear it when driving next to walls or through tunnels, it almost sounds like an exhaust manifold leak.
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      02-28-2011, 09:09 PM   #130
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I have had issues with conrods before

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      03-01-2011, 12:37 AM   #131
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I have had issues with conrods before

they don't stock those at autozone
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      03-01-2011, 05:18 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMRLVR View Post
My friend, I build engines for a living. Bearings usually are not "bad" the engine oiling system or some other issue usually causes bearing failure. Understand that there is supposed to be no metal to metal contact between bearings under normal operation. The journal/bearings are separated by a film of oil, when you get boundary lubrication or direct metal on metal contact (can be caused by the extreme pressures created by detonation/excessive cylinder pressures from excessive boost in a high compression engine) you have problems in a hurry. If the bearings were a problem, they would not be still using the same parts.

Part of the solution on the E46 main bearing failure was to upgrade to the 10w60 TWS engine oil. I am willing to bet this was an attempt to get a but more oil pressure to ensure the oil film did not get pushed out of the bearings/journals after the engines were repaired changed.

Another possible cause for the E46 and any current main/rod bearing issues are engines that slipped through the cracks with bearings that were too tight on the main and rod journals. If the oil clearance between bearings is insufficient it also can cause big problems.

For how many E9X M3's there are out there the bearings can be considered a non issue. There have been extremely few issues compared to the number of cars in service.

The M3 is a car that is built by people. It will never be completely trouble free since mistakes in assembly and measurements can be easily made. In fact it is an extremely reliable car. If main bearings/rod bearings were an issue than all of the cars running around with close to 50% additional horsepower over stock would have engines failed for long ago.

The rod bearing/rod failure in this thread was due to high boost and use of meth injection instead of running lower boost that the engine could handle without detonating. I don't want to make this into a Gintani or AA bashing thread but running water/meth injection is a sign that you are running too much boost and your manifold temperature is too high. Any company that chooses to run a setup like this is going to suffer more failures down the road.
+1 good post! Even if a slight bit over confident at the end . Hopefully we will have some evidence that you are correct but odds point against any publication of all of the evidence.
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