Rod Bearing Failure... - Page 2

Richbot · 02-23-2011, 10:25 AM

Let's see here...

- Run low on oil
- Run at very high cylinder pressures (12:1 with port fuel injection + 9psi on relatively low octane fuel

)
- Possible (probable?) detonation on the dyno at high rpm
- High rpm, high-strung motor that STARTED OUT making 104hp/l and now makes over 150 and still revs to the moon...

Yeah, my car will probably blow up tomorrow because I'm saying this, but I'm thinking you got your money's worth out of that motor. I'm not worried.

As we say at the track after something bad happens:

"That's racin'!"

Nothing left to do but re-motor and make it faster!

aus · 02-23-2011, 10:32 AM

I've read of a couple 2008 cars with bad bearings here that were not blown, but I think they had the "ticking" sound.
I also remember someone saying NOT to use Meth with this engine- it may have been Ronin.
Anyways, good luck with the rebuild. Isn't this going to run close to $20,000?

DLSJ5 · 02-23-2011, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Sorry to hear about this. It really blows and I hope you get your car up and running soon.

Appreciate that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

This ^ doesnt sound right (I'm not calling you out. Just trying to understand better)

No offense taken, but FWIW a stock car has thrown a rod.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

1) Bearings squeel (if spun) or rattle for just about everything else. They do more than tick before total failure.

Actually they can tick before they fail, or they may not tick at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

2) You would have a noticable temperature increase (good thing for the oil temp gauge)

Never heard of this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

3) Was a good degree of oil burned up from the heat of the bad/spun bearing?

I'm not sure, they motor still needs to be torn down to find out more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

4) Find out what the color of the broken connecting rod is? (bluish, from the heat?)

I do not remember seeing any bluish color.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

5) And the car never stalled or anything before the rod blew?

Nope, it ran fantastic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

We have forged steel/magnesium connecting rods. I'm not sure they would just snap because of a bearing and I have never seen one seized to a crank.

More inspection needs to be done, but what I posted is what I know so far. Sorry I can't give you any further concrete answers right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Right, but you also had 11psi and meth injection. The bearing issue really doesnt apply here.

I think it does, ask the experts, 11psi is too much for these motors, and it appears 9psi might be as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Dont feel so privilaged. That's what they SHOULD do, bro. Not to mention, they know that we all know your car. It's good business for them to make good.

Actually I do, the engine is 25K new! I have had several friends who's motors have blown, some through a rod, most were not so privileged where the tuner took care of all the costs, and I'm talking about some of the most well respected tuners in the world. But I agree it is good business for them, I'm glad they are taking care of me, I am not going to get into whether they should of or not, the fact is they are.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Once again, best of luck. (we all want to see more great videos soon with your perfectly positioned side-view window and more importantly...rear-view mirror!)

Haha, thank you, I appreciate the compliments on the vids and glad that you enjoy them!

DLSJ5 · 02-23-2011, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Baaaaa (no offense to the OP)

lol, I respect your thoughts, I'm sure many probably may feel the same way you do.

FWIW, Gintani never even questioned it, from the moment I called them to tell them what happened, they said, "We'll take care of it." As I said in my last post, in my long history as an enthusiast, modding, etc. for the most part when you add FI to your car, upgraded, etc. if something fails, the tuner normally will not cover all costs, some do nothing and some will find a way out, based on things you did to the car yourself, so I think they get it too.

DOUT · 02-23-2011, 10:53 AM

Yes, a N/A motor has blown and the owner is on the forum but his user name doesn't come to mind at the moment. He ended up rebuilding the motor to stock displacement with higher compression. Paired with his Akra evo exhaust it sounds great.

EDIT: "elmariachi" from Signapore
http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=433835

Quote:

Originally Posted by J08M3

Not laying any blame here.... But has there been a non-supercharged engine that has blown up yet? I know we've seen a number of SC engines that have blown, by a few different SC companies.

Perhaps it's not a very good idea to SC this engine???

J08M3 · 02-23-2011, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOUT

Yes, a N/A motor has blown and the owner is on the forum but his user name doesn't come to mind at the moment. He ended up rebuilding the motor to stock displacement with higher compression. Paired with his Akra evo exhaust it sounds great.

so we have 1 N/A blown out of how many N/A .... and at least 4 or 5 S/C blown out of how many S/C?

DOUT · 02-23-2011, 10:59 AM

Sorry to see your motor blow, hopefully it will be up and running again soon. The car is a monster!

1º · 02-23-2011, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J08M3

so we have 1 N/A blown out of how many N/A .... and at least 4 or 5 S/C blown out of how many S/C?

cant really group all super chargers together since tunners have different methods...

i almost 100% positive ESS has no blown motoros, and they've sold A LOT of kits.

Gpower had 3 i believe, one was tightie, the other two were mentioned somewhere on the forum. if i remember correctly it was due to a bad tune but they were able fix that.

Active has 1 but good luck finding info on that.

Gintani has this one.

J08M3 · 02-23-2011, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1º

cant really group all super chargers together since tunners have different methods...

i almost 100% positive ESS has no blown motoros, and they've sold A LOT of kits.

Gpower had 3 i believe, one was tightie, the other two were mentioned somewhere on the forum. if i remember correctly it was due to a bad tune but they were able fix that.

Active has 1 but good luck finding info on that.

Gintani has this one.

Of course you can group them all together, they all have S/C. They may have blown from different reasons, but seems to be pretty obvious the S/C motors are at a much higher risk of blowing up than the N/A. Whether it's tuning or whatever they are failing much more often than the N/A

1º · 02-23-2011, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J08M3

Of course you can group them all together, they all have S/C. They may have blown from different reasons, but seems to be pretty obvious the S/C motors are at a much higher risk of blowing up than the N/A. Whether it's tuning or whatever they are failing much more often than the N/A

whatever floats your boat i guess, i just think its important to note that ESS doesnt put as much boost as other tuners and have had no failures (to my knowledge at least).

Jason · 02-23-2011, 11:22 AM

Please keep this thread on topic. Off-topic posts have been (and will be) removed. Thank you.

Sorry to hear about your engine Drew

please keep us updated and good luck.

Jaypod · 02-23-2011, 11:24 AM

Sorry to hear Drew - glad to hear Gintani is getting you fixed up.

Richbot · 02-23-2011, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J08M3

S/C motors are at a much higher risk of blowing up than the N/A.

Where's the "duh" smilie?

Just part of the game, and part of what makes modifying and/or racing cars so much fun. Most people don't have the chutzpah to mess with a car because of this phenomenon. The risks of modifying a car are very real, it's just a fact of life and I've seen too many world-class tuners blow stuff up to let anybody tell me different. Sometimes stuff breaks when it makes more power, unexpected failures happen, what once was strong enough becomes a weak link. That's why it's such a small club and it's just part of what makes it exciting.

Gearhead999s · 02-23-2011, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbot

Where's the "duh" smilie?

Just part of the game, and part of what makes modifying and/or racing cars so much fun. Most people don't have the chutzpah to mess with a car because of this phenomenon. The risks of modifying a car are very real, it's just a fact of life and I've seen too many world-class tuners blow stuff up to let anybody tell me different. Sometimes stuff breaks when it makes more power, unexpected failures happen, what once was strong enough becomes a weak link. That's why it's such a small club and it's just part of what makes it exciting.

+1

Brosef · 02-23-2011, 11:47 AM

sorry to hear the news - that really sucks. props to you for being candid and keeping the community in the loop regarding the root cause here! and of course, props to Gintani for standing behind their products.

hope you get back on the road soon.

HP Man · 02-23-2011, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbot

Where's the "duh" smilie?

Just part of the game, and part of what makes modifying and/or racing cars so much fun. Most people don't have the chutzpah to mess with a car because of this phenomenon. The risks of modifying a car are very real, it's just a fact of life and I've seen too many world-class tuners blow stuff up to let anybody tell me different. Sometimes stuff breaks when it makes more power, unexpected failures happen, what once was strong enough becomes a weak link. That's why it's such a small club and it's just part of what makes it exciting.

+2

To the OP, sorry to hear about your situation -- hopefully a teardown pinpoints the cause and people can learn something from it. Props to Gintani for stepping up to the plate.

GreasyGinzo · 02-23-2011, 12:25 PM

Yo if Gintani really is covering the cost of all repairs that is sick. That is waaaaaay beyond what they need to do. I mean what aftermarket tuner company would warranty the motor? Without even taking into consideration your claim of oil starvation and running higher than normal boost. But I have to agree...the S65 has a high CR and it's a little suspect to me some of these boost numbers on the higher HP kits.

J08M3 · 02-23-2011, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richbot

Where's the "duh" smilie?

Just part of the game, and part of what makes modifying and/or racing cars so much fun. Most people don't have the chutzpah to mess with a car because of this phenomenon. The risks of modifying a car are very real, it's just a fact of life and I've seen too many world-class tuners blow stuff up to let anybody tell me different. Sometimes stuff breaks when it makes more power, unexpected failures happen, what once was strong enough becomes a weak link. That's why it's such a small club and it's just part of what makes it exciting.

Yes, when you take just one line of what I say it sounds a little over the top obvious. But it does seem like quite a few blown motors from S/C. Haven't heard of one other mod on this forum causing a blown motor. My point from the beginning is that it's starting to sound a little more and more probable that this engine isn't a great choice to start boosting with it's already high compression.

Dave07997S · 02-23-2011, 01:35 PM

Hope everything gets worked out bro...don't let it get you down.

Dave

elp_jc · 02-23-2011, 01:37 PM

One more vote that's insane to boost the S65 engine, especially to 9 and 11 psi when the bearings are known to be marginal already. Good luck man.

808E90 · 02-23-2011, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyoshi71

Baaaaa (no offense to the OP)

I'm a ESS Fan ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by J08M3

Of course you can group them all together, they all have S/C. They may have blown from different reasons, but seems to be pretty obvious the S/C motors are at a much higher risk of blowing up than the N/A. Whether it's tuning or whatever they are failing much more often than the N/A

G-Power blew their motors with a bad tune ...

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1º

whatever floats your boat i guess, i just think its important to note that ESS doesnt put as much boost as other tuners and have had no failures (to my knowledge at least).

ESS can but will not unless you lower the compression ... Yeah they're not really into running meth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by J08M3

Yes, when you take just one line of what I say it sounds a little over the top obvious. But it does seem like quite a few blown motors from S/C. Haven't heard of one other mod on this forum causing a blown motor. My point from the beginning is that it's starting to sound a little more and more probable that this engine isn't a great choice to start boosting with it's already high compression.

Other then G-Powers bad tune blow up this may just be a case of "Bad Rod Bearing"

Here are a few links ... Note that all these car are 2008 M3's

2008 AtiveAuto SC:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...hlight=rebuild

2008 SPOTIKUS:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=307802

2008 ELMARIACHI:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=309484

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379712

DublinM3 · 02-23-2011, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J08M3

Yes, when you take just one line of what I say it sounds a little over the top obvious. But it does seem like quite a few blown motors from S/C. Haven't heard of one other mod on this forum causing a blown motor. My point from the beginning is that it's starting to sound a little more and more probable that this engine isn't a great choice to start boosting with it's already high compression.

The S65 if run on proper boost levels is a good motor to boost. I think ESS has proven with a high volume of kits sold without any failures it is really about making sure you keep keep boost levels and tuning within reason. I think Drew would agree as he found out that anytime you make the decision to push the limits as he did you run a much higher risk of failure. High boost on this motor can lead to detonation which will take out rod bearings.

Thanks for sharing your story with everyone Drew as it will hopefully open some eyes to what the limits of this motor are and the risk involved if you decide to push them. Hopefully your car is back on the road again soon.

02-23-2011, 10:25 AM	#23
Richbot Major Drives: Jerez Black E90 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: STL Posts: 1,485 iTrader: (1)	Let's see here... - Run low on oil - Run at very high cylinder pressures (12:1 with port fuel injection + 9psi on relatively low octane fuel ) - Possible (probable?) detonation on the dyno at high rpm - High rpm, high-strung motor that STARTED OUT making 104hp/l and now makes over 150 and still revs to the moon... Yeah, my car will probably blow up tomorrow because I'm saying this, but I'm thinking you got your money's worth out of that motor. I'm not worried. As we say at the track after something bad happens: "That's racin'!" Nothing left to do but re-motor and make it faster! __________________

02-23-2011, 10:32 AM	#24
aus Major General Drives: M3 Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Seal Beach, CA Posts: 6,166 iTrader: (5)	I've read of a couple 2008 cars with bad bearings here that were not blown, but I think they had the "ticking" sound. I also remember someone saying NOT to use Meth with this engine- it may have been Ronin. Anyways, good luck with the rebuild. Isn't this going to run close to $20,000? __________________ Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."

02-23-2011, 10:59 AM	#29
DOUT Captain Drives: M3 Join Date: May 2009 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 746 iTrader: (2)	Sorry to see your motor blow, hopefully it will be up and running again soon. The car is a monster! __________________ 2013 E92 M3 6MT ZCP Space Grey/Fox Red

02-23-2011, 11:22 AM	#33
Jason Administrator Drives: E90 M3 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: IoT Posts: 13,925 iTrader: (0)	Please keep this thread on topic. Off-topic posts have been (and will be) removed. Thank you. Sorry to hear about your engine Drew please keep us updated and good luck. __________________ Check on the Latest BMW News Become a fan of Bimmerpost Facebook Follow us on Bimmerpost Twitter Subscribe to Bimmerpost Youtube Channel

02-23-2011, 11:24 AM	#34
Jaypod BimmerPost Supporting Vendor Drives: Frozen M3 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Toronto Posts: 4,670 iTrader: (7)	Sorry to hear Drew - glad to hear Gintani is getting you fixed up. __________________ \| Alpinestars \| OMP \| HANS \| Pagid \| AiM \| Stilo \| JRZ \| Brembo \| Stoptech \|

02-23-2011, 11:47 AM	#37
Brosef Lieutenant Colonel Drives: 2011 M Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,508 iTrader: (3)	sorry to hear the news - that really sucks. props to you for being candid and keeping the community in the loop regarding the root cause here! and of course, props to Gintani for standing behind their products. hope you get back on the road soon.

02-23-2011, 12:25 PM	#39
GreasyGinzo Captain Drives: '08 E92 AW 6MT M3(Totaled) Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: North Jersey Posts: 626 iTrader: (1)	Yo if Gintani really is covering the cost of all repairs that is sick. That is waaaaaay beyond what they need to do. I mean what aftermarket tuner company would warranty the motor? Without even taking into consideration your claim of oil starvation and running higher than normal boost. But I have to agree...the S65 has a high CR and it's a little suspect to me some of these boost numbers on the higher HP kits. __________________

02-23-2011, 01:35 PM	#41
Dave07997S Lieutenant Colonel Drives: 2011 BMW M3 ZCP Coupe Join Date: May 2009 Location: Playa del Rey, CA Posts: 1,973 iTrader: (0)	Hope everything gets worked out bro...don't let it get you down. Dave __________________ 2011 M3 Coupe-MR/Blk Turner Test Pipes, AFE pulley, Megan Catback/AFE Stg.2. 255/285 tires. Previous Rides: 2007 Porsche 997C2S Speed Yellow/Blk sport seats 2004 BMW M3 Imola/Blk

02-23-2011, 01:37 PM	#42
elp_jc Brigadier General Drives: . Join Date: May 2008 Location: . Posts: 4,912 iTrader: (0)	One more vote that's insane to boost the S65 engine, especially to 9 and 11 psi when the bearings are known to be marginal already. Good luck man.

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