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      02-22-2011, 03:37 AM   #133
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just watched the complete episode. very entertaining and loved watching the M3 vs RS5 go head to head
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      02-22-2011, 04:05 AM   #134
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Just finished the full episode, the M3 RS5 comparo was very good, and the M3 deserved to win.

The Plowbine segment was a bit long and boring and the guest, despite how hot she is, was pretty bad. Her lap was really clean and I thought she was going to be quick but ah fail.

Good episode overall!
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      02-22-2011, 04:27 AM   #135
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Even F1 drivers can have more than 1 sec different in the same car, same driver
I don't make conclusion that BMW is better for 1 lap drive
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      02-22-2011, 04:41 AM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z4@Phuket View Post
Even F1 drivers can have more than 1 sec different in the same car, same driver
I don't make conclusion that BMW is better for 1 lap drive
Lol. They dont only drive one lap, they do several. And of course the same driver's worst lap can be 1 sec slower but his best laps are always very close if they go for it. But of course the difference is not exactly one second. Probably the m3 should be even faster. In autmomotorsport the comp. m3 did it in 1.14 at hockenheims short lap. rs5 1.15,4 and the 487hp c63 amg 1.15,6.
So I would guess that under perfect conditions the m3 should be a little less then 2 sec faster around the top gear track.
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      02-22-2011, 06:25 AM   #137
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Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
You do mean refine and re-tune an already existing suppercar, not build and develop.......as we all know what an R8 is......

Facts are your friend.

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e46e92
You clearly don't know the development of the Gallardo to well if you think like this and you also don't know how different the R8 and Gallardo are underneath.

The point still stands that the original poster that stated BMW are always better than Audi, Mercedes and Porsche was and still is wrong with that opinion, though this fact doesn't diminish that BMW make some of the greatest cars around.
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      02-22-2011, 06:31 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by Swedish M3ffia View Post
Lol. They dont only drive one lap, they do several. And of course the same driver's worst lap can be 1 sec slower but his best laps are always very close if they go for it. But of course the difference is not exactly one second. Probably the m3 should be even faster. In autmomotorsport the comp. m3 did it in 1.14 at hockenheims short lap. rs5 1.15,4 and the 487hp c63 amg 1.15,6.
So I would guess that under perfect conditions the m3 should be a little less then 2 sec faster around the top gear track.
Some tracks will suit some setups better than others, on the Topgear track on this occasion the M3 was quicker and no one can deny this fact, but it's also true that the M3 doesn't always have everything it's own way and the data shows on several tracks the results are reversed. Point being that all these cars are surprisingly closely matched to each other and the chances are that in real world situations with normal skilled drivers the differences could disappear entirely or grow dramatically such is the differences these cars demand on the driver's own abilities.

Last edited by footie; 02-22-2011 at 10:36 AM.
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      02-22-2011, 06:35 AM   #139
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I was surprised, that the M3 was quicker in damp conditions. I would bet on the rs5.
On the other hand I completely agree, of what has been said there...

... I owned an AW e46 M3 ZCP and that was a BETTER M3 than the standard one, from the "new" ZCP I only like the wheels
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      02-22-2011, 08:12 AM   #140
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nice!
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      02-22-2011, 09:26 AM   #141
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Was able to take an S5 for a spin and it is pretty comfortable and is a very good GT car. I'd take an M3 any day of the week though. Haven't driven an RS5. Anyone know if the RS5 is going to make it to the US ???
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      02-22-2011, 10:38 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
Some tracks will suit some setups better than others, on the Topgear track on this occasion the M3 was quicker and no one can deny this fact, but it's also true that the M3 doesn't always have everything it's own way and the data shows on several tracks the results are reversed. Point being that all these cars are surprisingly closely matched to each other and the chances are that in real world situations with normal skilled drivers the differences could disappear entirely or grow dramatically and not necessarily to the obvious one.
excuses, excuses. the real point here is that a loss for the Audi is a loss. if we were just gonna conclude that the cars are a close match and that's it, then what would be the point of having a comparison to begin with?

not to mention the Top Gear track has a lot of really slow corners and was wet, both of which play to the Audi's strengths, which make the M3's victory that much sweeter.
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      02-22-2011, 11:10 AM   #143
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I dont think Clarkson did his homework on how the "M" button works. Simply pushing the EDC button twice is not "ALL" that the Comp Package is about. I didnt see him set M-mode at all in fact, simply pushed the EDC button?? I am relatively sure that the car would perform better when set up properly via the options available in M-mode. I wouldnt drive the car down the freeway in a straightline with EDC set to Sport mode either.
I wish they had spent a little more time with the cars - it seemed a little rushed. Despite driving an M3 I do like the RS5. I like the way they look and I really like the interior. Obviously I preferred the M3 or I would have picked up an RS5 but I did like the Audi for sure. If only the salesmen at the dealership hadnt been such a-holes, I might have given it a little more thought.

No regrets though for me, none at all!!!

I think that it's safe to assume that JC is quite familiar with EDC and M-Drive (..and that these parameters were set to his liking despite not being pinpointed on film). After all, he has seat time in other EDC equipped cars.

FWIW, the new ZCP package DOES tout the fact that all three modes are now variable (..as opposed to only a variable Normal mode, and fixed Comfort/Sport modes in non-ZCP M3's), and that Sport mode has received a performance adjustment on the new M3. A modified EDC system, wheels and lowering springs ARE the ZCP package.
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      02-22-2011, 01:41 PM   #144
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The ZCP has features other than an active EDC sport setting. I certainly don't use it and i believe the M3 is fastest around the Nurburgring on the comfort setting. I can see that neither JC nor the Stig used traction control or MDM for that matter. I on the other hand I drive in MDM exclusively (dry and warm weather) during the summer months and enjoy the additional slip angle it allows over cars w/out the ZCP. I like the wheels and slight drop. Considering it cost me an additional $680 at the time......it was a no brainer. I am not hating the non ZCP cars but just the advanced MDM settings are enough for me. I am sure that the ZCP adds nothing for drivers like JC or the Stig.
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      02-22-2011, 01:43 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greycrx87 View Post
they could pull another 3-4 seconds on dry tarmac..other than entertaining value, I find this comparison pretty useless.
Are you being serious? 3-4 seconds on this track is another world. No chance.
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      02-22-2011, 01:46 PM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBMW View Post
The ZCP has features other than an active EDC sport setting. I certainly don't use it and i believe the M3 is fastest around the Nurburgring on the comfort setting. I can see that neither JC nor the Stig used traction control or MDM for that matter. I on the other hand I drive in MDM exclusively (dry and warm weather) during the summer months and enjoy the additional slip angle it allows over cars w/out the ZCP. I like the wheels and slight drop. Considering it cost me an additional $680 at the time......it was a no brainer. I am not hating the non ZCP cars but just the advanced MDM settings are enough for me. I am sure that the ZCP adds nothing for drivers like JC or the Stig.
I don't have ZCP but i do have M Drive and have had my car at silly slip angles in MDM mode.
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      02-22-2011, 01:51 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrimeBMW View Post
The ZCP has features other than an active EDC sport setting. I certainly don't use it and i believe the M3 is fastest around the Nurburgring on the comfort setting. I can see that neither JC nor the Stig used traction control or MDM for that matter. I on the other hand I drive in MDM exclusively (dry and warm weather) during the summer months and enjoy the additional slip angle it allows over cars w/out the ZCP. I like the wheels and slight drop. Considering it cost me an additional $680 at the time......it was a no brainer. I am not hating the non ZCP cars but just the advanced MDM settings are enough for me. I am sure that the ZCP adds nothing for drivers like JC or the Stig.

Ummm....

...the ZCP's main features are 10mm lowered ride height, variable EDC modes and wheels. Other than what was already mentioned, what OTHER features are you referring to? MDM and fixed/variable EDC is available on non-ZCP M3's. There is no appreciable performance gain between them.

And if my memory serves me correctly, the Nurburgring M3 was driven in Normal mode.
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      02-22-2011, 02:08 PM   #148
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excuses, excuses. the real point here is that a loss for the Audi is a loss. if we were just gonna conclude that the cars are a close match and that's it, then what would be the point of having a comparison to begin with?

not to mention the Top Gear track has a lot of really slow corners and was wet, both of which play to the Audi's strengths, which make the M3's victory that much sweeter.
The real point was Audi lost. Do you think this have any bearing on which car you would be quickest in?

Do you not think that out of the number of comparison tests these two have had and the fact that the win count between them is all but even that this proves them to be quite evenly matched. Now if in your country the price difference is great then I could understand the argument for picking the M3 over the RS5, especially if you had no need for awd but if the price is similar as it is in the UK and the benefits of awd is genuine then I don't see a problem recommending either of them.
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      02-22-2011, 02:19 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by footie View Post
The real point was Audi lost. Do you think this have any bearing on which car you would be quickest in?

Do you not think that out of the number of comparison tests these two have had and the fact that the win count between them is all but even that this proves them to be quite evenly matched. Now if in your country the price difference is great then I could understand the argument for picking the M3 over the RS5, especially if you had no need for awd but if the price is similar as it is in the UK and the benefits of awd is genuine then I don't see a problem recommending either of them.
Agree with you on the cost part. In the US, S5 and M3 prices are very similar despite their performance difference and RS5 will cost way more than M3, we could assume.

One thing I have to point out is that how the B7 RS4 was such a "driver's car" and yet the RS5 fails to do that. I understand they created a different type of a car, more of a GT, but in my opinion they should have left that part to the "S5" and gave us more of a "driver's car" with the RS5.
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      02-22-2011, 02:32 PM   #150
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      02-22-2011, 02:37 PM   #151
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the original m3 time that was previously on their board was the E90(sedan) stick M3.. silverstone if I remember correctly
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      02-22-2011, 02:46 PM   #152
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Quote:
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The real point was Audi lost. Do you think this have any bearing on which car you would be quickest in?

Do you not think that out of the number of comparison tests these two have had and the fact that the win count between them is all but even that this proves them to be quite evenly matched. Now if in your country the price difference is great then I could understand the argument for picking the M3 over the RS5, especially if you had no need for awd but if the price is similar as it is in the UK and the benefits of awd is genuine then I don't see a problem recommending either of them.
I've read counless comparisons here in Europe and the RS5 has lost almost every one. Audi had a car that was 4+years old to beat with their new car - this should have been the same result as when the RS4 arrived and destroyed the E46 M3.
Sad truth is that they couldn't do it - if Audi had a 4 year old car that was regarded as the best in class and BMW M were told to design a car to beat it what do you think the result would be? You know the answer. Audi have produced some great drivers cars recently (RS4, R8) i just don't understand how they can be so hit and miss with their RS cars.
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      02-22-2011, 03:42 PM   #153
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I've read counless comparisons here in Europe and the RS5 has lost almost every one. Audi had a car that was 4+years old to beat with their new car - this should have been the same result as when the RS4 arrived and destroyed the E46 M3.
Sad truth is that they couldn't do it - if Audi had a 4 year old car that was regarded as the best in class and BMW M were told to design a car to beat it what do you think the result would be? You know the answer. Audi have produced some great drivers cars recently (RS4, R8) i just don't understand how they can be so hit and miss with their RS cars.
Driving dynamics is a very personal thing, for those that have owned the RS4 and moved up to the new RS5 they all say the dynamics are superior, now since the M3 hasn't changed from the time it was compared to the RS4 we have to concluded that what Audi are offering isn't what those reviewers were looking for. That doesn't mean the RS5 is a bad car, only that it can't thrill in the same way as an M3 can, but then again do we really need another M3 on the Market when the one we already have is exception?

The RS5 is a different car with clearly different goals, as you pointed out it's more of a GT yet it matches the M3's ability. Another thing worth mentioning is that because it's awd it's performance is easier to access, this might be a negative for those seeking something to push their own abilities but the reality is few of us could ever get close to matching the Stig's time in the M3 but might get a lot close in the RS5 just because it's limits are more approachable.

Different cars with different driving styles and demands on the driver but each are brilliant in their own right.
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      02-22-2011, 03:43 PM   #154
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the original m3 time that was previously on their board was the E90(sedan) stick M3.. silverstone if I remember correctly
Your memory fails you....it was AW
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