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      02-18-2011, 01:26 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge2Dub View Post
Ha ha, we are soooo lazy!...but seriously, you can't shift with a Starbucks cup and a bagel in your hands.
You can use the bagel like a hook.. but yeah you don't want cream cheese all over the gear knob
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      02-18-2011, 02:31 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
...but yeah you don't want cream cheese all over the gear knob
That's NOT what she said.
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      02-18-2011, 02:33 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazybimmer View Post
NA vs FI, this same thing over and over and over again.... Some facts:

1) This is an M3 (E9X to be exact!) forum. 99% of the people here own M3s. They have spent a considerable amount of money for this car (on average 70k) and given the fact that they are members of an "M3 forum" its obvious they love their car and think (and will always think) it is the best choice (if not then there would be a serious problem). So there is absolutely no way to have equal sides to this na vs fi debate from among M3 owners.

2) Funny thing, most of those people I mentioned in #1 will be posting pictures of their F3X M3 when its released and will be arguing how its lagless turbo is so much better than the old sluggish 295 lb/ft torqueless one. It is unseen and unheard of for a new M car to be not better than the old one in all aspects especially handling.

From outside it just looks so funny. Its like going to republicans and asking about health care reform or asking democrats about tax cuts. Its a lost cause.

To me my 335 is the best balance between speed, comfort, looks, price, maintainability, commitment. Afterall its just "a" car. To you your M3 is one of world's wonders, the greatest engineering piece of work never to be beaten by any other car. To the average joe, its a production 3 series bmw with bigger wheels and 4 exhausts. The fact is none of this matters, because this is an M3 forum.

WOW,

One of the, if not the most, logical posts I have ever read.

It is good to see people with common sense.
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      02-18-2011, 02:37 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by mylydiamy View Post
WOW,

One of the, if not the most, logical posts I have ever read.

It is good to see people with common sense.
Very rare indeed!
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      02-18-2011, 02:38 PM   #93
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My vote is for the 7.0 liter Z06 engine in the M3. Probably lighter, too.
Can not argue that
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      02-18-2011, 02:41 PM   #94
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Lol! The funny thing is that nothing about buying a $70k car and modding it is logical. Why look for rationality in exhuberance...doesn't that ruin the entertainment factor?
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      02-18-2011, 02:57 PM   #95
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I am gonna have to disagree. While he definitely made some good points, overall the post is shortsighted and parts of it fail to stand up to some basic reason. For example, this is clearly false:

"So there is absolutely no way to have equal sides to this na vs fi debate from among M3 owners."

since plenty of M3 owners either have owned or currently owned turbo charged cars. Also this one completely missed the point too:

"It is unseen and unheard of for a new M car to be not better than the old one in all aspects especially handling."

because no one (or few people, anyway) was really arguing that to begin with.

So overall while I agree the guy has plenty of common sense, I'd say that that goes for most of us on the forum. And I've seen much better examples of good debate on this forum in the past, and much better laid out arguments to boot. But yeah, there is some truth in his post for sure - such as some folks who are complaining now will indeed buy the F32 M3.

One final thing - the guy drives a 335i. If he had both a 335i and M3 in the garage today, I bet he'd pick the M3 more often than the 335i. That's just my take though.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mylydiamy View Post
WOW,

One of the, if not the most, logical posts I have ever read.

It is good to see people with common sense.
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      02-18-2011, 03:07 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I'll take the 3.8L Turbo V8 in the McLaren MP4C. Who cares if it has forced induction when it revs like that?

The 3L 500hp 10000RPM supercharged V8 in the Ariel Atom is another great one. But 3L is not enough you might say? Well it better be, since in all likelihood that's what the next M3 gets.
The Ariel atom V8 is naturally aspirated 3L. And no 3 liters with two turbos is not "enough" which is why I wont be buying the next M3.
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      02-18-2011, 03:18 PM   #97
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The Ariel atom V8 is naturally aspirated 3L.
I'm almost sure it is supercharged, although I admit that I can't find confirmation of it. Do you have a link with official info?
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      02-18-2011, 03:21 PM   #98
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I just watched an episode of Top Gear showcasing the Atom, and I can't remember whether is it N/A or supercharged. There are two in which the Atom went against a motorcycle. The first was a CBR600RR vs the Honda powered Atom; the second was the BMWS1000RR vs the V8 powered Atom (..using two Hayabusa engines).

Last edited by Sedan_Clan; 02-18-2011 at 03:29 PM.
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      02-18-2011, 03:46 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Dodge2Dub View Post
Below is what the company e-mailed to me:
Not the same car. The Atom V8 is an extremely limited production version with (as the name says) a V8.
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      02-18-2011, 03:47 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I'm almost sure it is supercharged, although I admit that I can't find confirmation of it. Do you have a link with official info?
I believe the 300hp honda civic engine version (ie the first version) had supercharger. Not sure about the V8 version. At 10000rpm, I think 500hp can be made w/o a supercharger.
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      02-18-2011, 03:51 PM   #101
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Sorry...wrong part of the e-mail.

2011 Ariel Atom V8

Super Powerful & Lightweight = Mental Performance

* 3.0 liter V8
o 500+bhp
o 10,500 rpm
o Dry sump oil lubrication
o 8 individual throttle bodies with sequential fuel injection
o Ceramic coated stainless steel exhaust
* Sadev 6 speed sequential race gearbox
o Adjustable limited slip differential & gear sets
o Paddle airshift system
+ 40 millisecond up-shifts
+ 50 millisecond down-shifts
+ Capable of 5 downshifts in less than a second.
* 0-60 in about 2.4 seconds
* Power-to-Weight Ratio= 900+bhp/ton!
o Ferrari Enzo= 434bhp/ton
o Bugatti Veyron= 530bhp/ton
o GP2 single-seater formula car= 850bhp/ton
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      02-18-2011, 03:51 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
...the V8 powered Atom (..using two Hayabusa engines).
Well kinda, but not literally. It's an RS performance V8 that is based on the notion of combining two Hayabusa engines into a V8. It uses the basic Hayabusa block architecture, modified into a V8 package. They use the heads and such too. But they also increase the displacement, and on some versions of the engine add a supercharger too. I think the the Atom uses the supercharged version, but its honestly hard to confirm or deny that due to lack of definitive source of information on the car. Autoblog has the links to the Topgear test from Youtube which probably can answer the question, but I can't watch the video here at work.

BTW, imagine if BMW built a V8 around the engine in the S1000 RR. I know they have an I6 motorcycle engine coming, so why not a V8?
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      02-18-2011, 03:59 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erhanh View Post
I believe the 300hp honda civic engine version (ie the first version) had supercharger. Not sure about the V8 version. At 10000rpm, I think 500hp can be made w/o a supercharger.
It probably can, I agree, but I am sure there are versions of this engine that have a supercharger. I just don't know which one ended up in the Atom.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge2Dub View Post
Sorry...wrong part of the e-mail.
Sounds like the naturally aspirated engine then. So, my bad. But there does exist a (smaller displacement?) version with a supercharger.
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      02-18-2011, 04:01 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
It probably can, I agree, but I am sure there are versions of this engine that have a supercharger. I just don't know which one ended up in the Atom.
Let's assume NA is 500bhp.. and put a supercharger... let's get 700bhp.. God what that would be I guess closest thing to a F1?

I don't even think I can manage the regular Atom, yet alone the V8 one yet alone the V8 w/ sc
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      02-18-2011, 09:23 PM   #105
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Quote:
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Here is a non-anecdotal comment for you: The N54 in the 335i is fully spooled at 1400 rpm.

Here is my anecdotal comment: No lag to complain of. I have one and I have had turbo cars that lagged in ways that I have complained of. I also have an S65 that takes far more rpms than the N54 to get into the power band and I wait longer for that to happen than I do for the turbos to spool with the N54.
Here are my personal and anecdotal replies. The 335i has very perceptible lag both above and below 1400 rpm. I say it and the majority I've corresponded with say the exact same thing. Minor but easily perceptible.

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If you want to open your mind, find and read the "some story" in Grassroots Motorsports about a professional BMW race car driver track testing a lightly modded 335i against the M3. I like M3 and have a couple, but am not married to them.
I'm not married to my car either. I just tire of the 335i vs. M3 debate. It takes well more than the price difference between the two cars to get the 335i to match the M3 as an all around performer. I really don't care too much if one pro has a lot of nice things to say about the 335i. It does not change my feeling about the negative aspects of turbo lag. It won't change the sea of similar beliefs in the enthusiast community.

The next gen M3 might!
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      02-18-2011, 09:26 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Just keep that in mind when BMW releases the 3L I6 F32 M3 with a ~7000RPM redline.
Come on now, we've all agreed that 7200 is the very likely minium redline for the next M3. It is not awe inspiring but ~7000 can mean 6800 as well.
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      02-18-2011, 09:30 PM   #107
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Come on now, we've all agreed that 7200 is the very likely minium redline for the next M3. It is not awe inspiring but ~7000 can mean 6800 as well.
Hey Swamp..... Here is some proof that high revving and turbocharged can be done



Lets just hope that BMW decides to do it with their new FI engines
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      02-18-2011, 09:42 PM   #108
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Hey Swamp..... Here is some proof that high revving and turbocharged can be done

Lets just hope that BMW decides to do it with their new FI engines
Great vid, thanks, haven't seen this one. I have been aware of the McLaren engine for some time though. I've never claimed BMW can't do something similar with their redline, just that they won't. They won't need to those rpms to get the power they need and their "precious" valvetronic system is very likely incompatible with 7500 rpm or above.
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      02-18-2011, 10:58 PM   #109
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Good comments/additions.

-As to the flatness of a turbo torque curve - sure it can be tailored to be flat but it seem often in practice it is not achieved.
Personally, I have never seen a turbo torque curve that isn't about as flat as Kansas. As an example, the 300 HP bimmer six makes peak torque in a perfectly flat plane from down in the teens to what, 5000 rpm or so? This is mostly because they manage boost to do just that.

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-mpg: Turbos of the same peak power level, all else being equal will be better than NA. In general lower torque, high redline NA engines are accompanied by gearing that has relatively high rpm/mph at cruise this contributes to poor mpg. The S2000 has good mpg compared to what. Certainly its weight and aero contribute to it OK mpg. The E46 M3 mpg is not very good either, not far from the E92. It is even worse when considering its displacement.
Point made. I remember getting 26-27 mpg in the E46 on trips, but a check of the current EPA rating of that car is a shocker.

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-Redline: For BMW their turbos are limited by their use of valvetronic. Its response time can not support high redline. valvetronic help reduce turbo lag but also hinders in other ways. The typical strong midrange and weak top end is typical in turbos and that gives a car a much more GT feel and less of the race bred feel.
OK - but "typical" is not what I have in mind for the new M3. The price range means they can invest in a large-capacity turbo able to keep boost at levels where the Princeton Plasma Physics Lab guys get interested, right to red line, with variable vanes (or whatever) to keep lag to a minimum.

Quote:
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-Reliability: I'd like to look at some long term large reliability data sets. I'm sure there is a pretty clear answer on relative reliability there. My suspicion is that overall one would find less reliability in street cars with turbos. Of course that is not an intrinsic weakness (think large freight trucks and off road heavy equipment) but a real, in practice one.
We'll keep disagreeing on this. Check Consumer Reports long-term reliability numbers.

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Clutched blowers is a cool concept, what cars use/have used it. Did they offer good fuel efficiency?
Can't remember others at the moment, but Toyota did it in the MR2 about 20-25 years back, and Mercedes in the SLK 230 about a decade ago. Can't be definitive on mileage, but why else would they do it?
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      02-18-2011, 11:24 PM   #110
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Point made. I remember getting 26-27 mpg in the E46 on trips, but a check of the current EPA rating of that car is a shocker.
16/24 vs. 14/20 for the E92 M3 (official numbers). I regularly get between 21 and 22 in mixed driving and it includes avg speed of around 50 (peak over 90 daily for 1/4 of my 20 mile commute). And mine is the heavier vert. Really letting the motor scream drops economy to around 20 mpg on average.

In my Z4M Coupe on a trip from Kaiserslautern to Munich in 2009 I averaged over 21 mpg and over 100 mph. Much of it in unlimited zones cruising between 130 and 150 mph. We had several E92 M3s and one E93 M3 in that wagon train (one M5 as well). Those cars had significantly lower fuel economy and their stop for fuel was much sooner than my requirement. We had a few E46 M3s with us too. Fun trip (to the BMW Welt and nearby M factory).
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