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      02-17-2011, 10:29 PM   #67
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      02-17-2011, 10:33 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
Look at my signature. Lamborghini said it all. Nothing else to say.
Well I'm not ready to say a Ferrari F40 isn't a thoroughbred sports car just yet... Or many 911 turbos over the years.
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      02-18-2011, 12:42 AM   #69
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Good to know and thanks. I have referred many to that post for well over a decade now.

And now that I look back at the article, I do see your name on it.
Thanks for the kind words.

That "article" was really a note in a forum that someone picked up on and posted on vettenet, without my knowledge. It was a reply in a very torque-centric string, hence the overall slant. I've revised it over the years (for the better, I think), and it's here, in this forum.

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      02-18-2011, 12:51 AM   #70
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You should drive some. A centrifugal supercharger has very little additional power at low rpm and only modest additional power at mid rpm. How can it have significant additional power at mid rpm when it adds so little boost at mid rpm? Take a 9 psi centrifugal -- it will have about 3 psi at half peak rpm. If 3 psi makes big power to you, then you don't have much experience with power. I ran one for years on my E36 M3, at anywhere from 6 psi to 16 psi of boost. Sure, turbos make no power before they spool, but a reasonably sized one will spool fully by half peak rpm. I have one on my E36 M3 and it spools so fast that I have no complaints about lag.
Look I am not saying super>turbo in all cases nor at all rpms. However, I've seen plenty of dynos specifically for M3s where the gains from either are quite comparable at low to mid rpm. Certainly turbos can be programmed to behave differently.

I suppose you could define lag many ways. I could say that the S65 in my E90 M3 has lag because I feel significant power only at high rpm. I could say the N54 in my E61 535 has no lag because I feel significant power anytime I put my foot down. I have owned and driven them all -- centrifugal supercharger, turbocharger, and high revving naturally aspirated. The one with the power curve I like most is my turbo E36 M3.

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I am well versed in lag, having owned turbo cars since 1988 and driven hundreds of thousands of miles in them, with a variety of stock and aftermarket turbo. You don't see much of it with today's turbos. The old "wait for the boost" days have long passed. There are a lot of impressive turbo engines out there and the N54 is definitely one of them. Grassroots Motorsports took a 335i and made minor engine and suspension mods and equaled an E90 M3 around a road course, with James Clay driving both. Clay commented that the 335i pulled harder out of the corners than the M3. He had no complaints about lag.
OK, you have now back pedaled. Prior you said "no" lag now you are saying not "much" of it. No arguments here from me that modern ECUs, valve systems, and turbo technology such as variable vanes and mutliple turbos (well that is not so modern...) have no significantly reduced lag. To call it a non issue or absent is simply denial, lack of experience, exaggeration or lying. I must have pegged you wrong.

Anecdotal comments do not change the facts. Neither does some story about a modded 335i equaling or besting an M3. Ugh, let's not open that can of worms...

Also, a bit OT but I am highly confident BMW will continue the trend of lag reduction with some great turbo and general engine tech in the next gen M3. It will be some combination of: KERS, a new/evolutionary variable valve system, multiple turbos, variable vanes, etc.
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      02-18-2011, 02:37 AM   #71
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2) Funny thing, most of those people I mentioned in #1 will be posting pictures of their F3X M3 when its released and will be arguing how its lagless turbo is so much better than the old sluggish 295 lb/ft torqueless one. It is unseen and unheard of for a new M car to be not better than the old one in all aspects especially handling.
i agree with mvf, why even bother? it almost makes this entire thread a futile excercise now that i think about it.

more na vs turbo threads are going to pop up after the new f3x m3 comes out. and i agree that people will still go out there to buy the f3x m3 after they beached and moaned about turbos in m div. but still, i forsee an exodus. how big of one? iono. will this hurt m div's and bmw's overall image? iono. it would be nice for m div to keep turbos out, but im not going to hold my breath. ive already got my eye on the new 991. if bmw doesnt want to offer na engines, thats fine. ill go buy somewhere else.
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      02-18-2011, 06:54 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Look I am not saying super>turbo in all cases nor at all rpms. However, I've seen plenty of dynos specifically for M3s where the gains from either are quite comparable at low to mid rpm. Certainly turbos can be programmed to behave differently.

I suppose you could define lag many ways. I could say that the S65 in my E90 M3 has lag because I feel significant power only at high rpm. I could say the N54 in my E61 535 has no lag because I feel significant power anytime I put my foot down. I have owned and driven them all -- centrifugal supercharger, turbocharger, and high revving naturally aspirated. The one with the power curve I like most is my turbo E36 M3.



OK, you have now back pedaled. Prior you said "no" lag now you are saying not "much" of it. No arguments here from me that modern ECUs, valve systems, and turbo technology such as variable vanes and mutliple turbos (well that is not so modern...) have no significantly reduced lag. To call it a non issue or absent is simply denial, lack of experience, exaggeration or lying. I must have pegged you wrong.

Anecdotal comments do not change the facts. Neither does some story about a modded 335i equaling or besting an M3. Ugh, let's not open that can of worms...

Also, a bit OT but I am highly confident BMW will continue the trend of lag reduction with some great turbo and general engine tech in the next gen M3. It will be some combination of: KERS, a new/evolutionary variable valve system, multiple turbos, variable vanes, etc.
Here is a non-anecdotal comment for you: The N54 in the 335i is fully spooled at 1400 rpm.

Here is my anecdotal comment: No lag to complain of. I have one and I have had turbo cars that lagged in ways that I have complained of. I also have an S65 that takes far more rpms than the N54 to get into the power band and I wait longer for that to happen than I do for the turbos to spool with the N54.

If you want to open your mind, find and read the "some story" in Grassroots Motorsports about a professional BMW race car driver track testing a lightly modded 335i against the M3. I like M3 and have a couple, but am not married to them.
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      02-18-2011, 07:12 AM   #73
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I can not believe that most people keep mentioning how good NA M3 engine is on track. I bet my next 1 year pay check that 90% M3 owners have never been to track in their life time. Also most of M3 success at the track is due to its handling, not because it has teh greatest engine in the world.

Can anyone argue that M3 with C63 engine would be ten times better car at track and in DD than normal M3???

Who cares how it behaves on track if yon't track it, or track it once or twice a year. Most of us use our cars as DD.

Argument should be which engine is better on aggressive daily driving. Just my 0.2c...
My vote is for the 7.0 liter Z06 engine in the M3. Probably lighter, too.
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      02-18-2011, 09:20 AM   #74
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My vote is for the upcoming 4.0 flat 6 coming in the upcoming GT3 supposedly good for 480 HP

Last edited by N8dawg; 02-18-2011 at 10:28 AM.
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      02-18-2011, 10:14 AM   #75
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My vote is for the upcoming 4.0 I6 coming in the upcoming GT3 supposedly good for 480 HP
I6 ???
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      02-18-2011, 10:28 AM   #76
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I6 ???
I meant flat six
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      02-18-2011, 10:46 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by persian54 View Post
I agree with what you said except the part in red....

So a Porsche Turbo is the poor man's way of achieving more power?

How about a GTR?

I don't think either of these are a "poor man's" car..
I see your point, of course, but it's all about perspective. From the M3 owner's perspective, a 3 series with turbos is a less expensive, less responsive, and less appealing car that happens to have good horse power and torque. From the Ferrrari owner's perspective, the Porsche Turbo is a less expensive, less responsive, and less appealing car that happens to have good horse power and torque. So, I guess almost everyone is "poor" compared to someone else. And turbos are simply a less expensive way for someone to step up to more horsepower, at the expense of throttle response and control. Maybe one day, they will find a way to get rid of the lag. Until then, I'd rather have a NA engine or a supercharger.

I've driven the Porsche Turbos, too. They are great cars, but the lag is more than noticeable...it's annoying.
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      02-18-2011, 12:31 PM   #78
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I see your point, of course, but it's all about perspective. From the M3 owner's perspective, a 3 series with turbos is a less expensive, less responsive, and less appealing car that happens to have good horse power and torque. From the Ferrrari owner's perspective, the Porsche Turbo is a less expensive, less responsive, and less appealing car that happens to have good horse power and torque. So, I guess almost everyone is "poor" compared to someone else. And turbos are simply a less expensive way for someone to step up to more horsepower, at the expense of throttle response and control. Maybe one day, they will find a way to get rid of the lag. Until then, I'd rather have a NA engine or a supercharger.

I've driven the Porsche Turbos, too. They are great cars, but the lag is more than noticeable...it's annoying.
i think once you cross over the 100,000 mark, nothing is considered the poor mans anything.
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      02-18-2011, 12:33 PM   #79
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Turbo cars generally have loads of torque down low, but then die when you're up high in the rev range. On a track, this isn't what you want because you'll be in the higher RPM bands on a track coming out of corners. For day to day, tonice more torque down low is what it's all about. The M3 isn't a track car, but it can be tracked every once in awhile. You want a track car, get a modded Miata.
Corrected!
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      02-18-2011, 12:35 PM   #80
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i think once you cross over the 100,000 mark, nothing is considered the poor mans anything.
Geez, once you pass the $50K mark you are in luxury territory.
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      02-18-2011, 12:36 PM   #81
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Geez, once you pass the $50K mark you are in luxury territory.
Agreed!
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      02-18-2011, 12:46 PM   #82
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My vote is for the upcoming 4.0 flat 6 coming in the upcoming GT3 supposedly good for 480 HP
I'll take the 3.8L Turbo V8 in the McLaren MP4C. Who cares if it has forced induction when it revs like that?

The 3L 500hp 10000RPM supercharged V8 in the Ariel Atom is another great one. But 3L is not enough you might say? Well it better be, since in all likelihood that's what the next M3 gets.
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      02-18-2011, 12:48 PM   #83
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I'll take the 3.8L Turbo V8 in the McLaren MP4C. Who cares if it has forced induction when it revs like that?

The 3L 500hp 10000RPM supercharged V8 in the Ariel Atom is another great one. But 3L is not enough you might say? Well it better be, since in all likelihood that's what the next M3 gets.
higher the rev, smaller the displacement can be
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      02-18-2011, 12:57 PM   #84
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higher the rev, smaller the displacement can be
Just keep that in mind when BMW releases the 3L I6 F32 M3 with a ~7000RPM redline.

The fact is, you can get more power from a small displacement motor by revving it higher or by adding forced induction (or as my examples show, by doing both at the same time). It's almost guaranteed that BMW will only be doing the second for the next M3.
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      02-18-2011, 01:03 PM   #85
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Just keep that in mind when BMW releases the 3L I6 F32 M3 with a ~7000RPM redline.

The fact is, you can get more power from a small displacement motor by revving it higher or by adding forced induction (or as my examples show, by doing both at the same time). It's almost guaranteed that BMW will only be doing the second for the next M3.
Actually in line with a luxury car vs. a track star, which most M3 buyers (myself not included) will appreciate....more power without shifting. With that said, when can I get on the wait list...me wants! LOL!
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      02-18-2011, 01:20 PM   #86
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Actually in line with a luxury car vs. a track star, which most M3 buyers (myself not included) will appreciate....more power without shifting. With that said, when can I get on the wait list...me wants! LOL!
I believe average M3 buyer is getting an auto box, right? So who cares about shifting?
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      02-18-2011, 01:21 PM   #87
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Just keep that in mind when BMW releases the 3L I6 F32 M3 with a ~7000RPM redline.

The fact is, you can get more power from a small displacement motor by revving it higher or by adding forced induction (or as my examples show, by doing both at the same time). It's almost guaranteed that BMW will only be doing the second for the next M3.
Agreed. Wouldn't it be cool to have a 10krpm NA 3L V8 in the m3... ohh dreams

Of course that would have even less "low end torque"
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      02-18-2011, 01:23 PM   #88
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I believe average M3 buyer is getting an auto box, right? So who cares about shifting?
Ha ha, we are soooo lazy!...but seriously, you can't shift with a Starbucks cup and a bagel in your hands.
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