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      02-20-2007, 05:23 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by TheAcAvenger View Post
While I'm not going to sit here and defend the war on Iraq, it is much easier to argue in favor of a war against Iran.
Might as well. Things aren't going well in Afghanistan or Iraq. Let's go for the trifecta.
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      02-20-2007, 05:38 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Jaws View Post
Might as well. Things aren't going well in Afghanistan or Iraq. Let's go for the trifecta.

Nothing would surprise me with the guy in the office...instead of trying to solve issues civilized way, he's only searching for more wars and cowboy-ism around. It is so obvious that by doing that he's only fueling more hate and terrorism toward the US than anything else...
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      02-20-2007, 07:46 PM   #25
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For a little I listened to, I am beginning to like this Gates guy. Looks like he did not sleep in his "Basics of Diplomacy" class. Or maybe he did but paid attention to: "History repeats itself-- what to do when you're stretched so thin that Mexico could win back Texas"...

SOme dumb general in the Gulf is all hyped up about Iranian tests and "intimidation" in their back yard...but Gates takes more reasonable and diplomatic approach...so far
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      02-20-2007, 08:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I will never argue that the US government spends too little but laying the blame for the national debt on the war is misguided. The war has cost a total of around $450 billion over the past five years so the increase in debt obviously had other causes.

Also, our current debt to GDP ratio is half that which we had to prevail in WWII and half of Japan's current peacetime ratio. I do not think we are in any danger of bankruptcy.

As for how to solve terrorism, you say attacking the source and responding forcibly to threats will only create more terrorists but bin Laden has said that the US retreat from Somalia and failure to respond to attacks on its interests were proof of American weakness and swelled his ranks. What is the answer?

Why do you assume that there is an infinite number of people willing to become terrorists? It seems to me you assign unlimited resources to the enemy while unrealistically limiting those available to us.
Clarification: Ok, the debt is not completely due to the war. $450 billion....where did you get that number? Hopefully not from a quote or summary Bush wrote. I think this number is low but hey, I'm no expert.

The US retreat from Somalia swelled Bin Ladens forces? Proof? Did we count them all? Assumptions and a scare tactic.

I don't assume that there is a infinite number of people willing to become terrorists. We don't know how many of them will turn, a we will never know. The key here is to attain the reason WHY they turn to terrorism. It could be as simple as one US soldier in the field, flinging profanities and racist remarks throughout the streets of Baghdad that creates a terrorist. Until we solve this , I don't believe the answer is more troops. Its as simple as you assuming there is a finite number of them out there, and throwing "X amount of dollars" to solve it.

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furthermore, a relationship between terrorists and iran is irrelevant. Iran's proclamation of their nuclear capabilities, despite the restrictions and sanctions that were put on them directly outruling the development of nuclear technology for military purposes in Iran, gives the UN and the US grounds for attacking them before they become more of a threat. While I'm not going to sit here and defend the war on Iraq, it is much easier to argue in favor of a war against Iran.
Then how about NK???

The relationship between terrorists and Iran is RELEVANT! IF you kill Iranians, and take away their military machine, they will respond with Terrorism! You kill North Koreans and take away their military capabilities, and you will have a new form of Terror from Asians.

Unless of course you Nukem......thats the response I hear from a lot of people around here. Instead of seriously contemplating a solution, they resort to the "nukem all" answer. They giggle sheepishly and say that they are joking after you call them on their answer. Are they joking? Thats what scares me. Bush is one of those guys
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      02-21-2007, 05:00 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iguy View Post
Clarification: Ok, the debt is not completely due to the war. $450 billion....where did you get that number? Hopefully not from a quote or summary Bush wrote. I think this number is low but hey, I'm no expert.

The US retreat from Somalia swelled Bin Ladens forces? Proof? Did we count them all? Assumptions and a scare tactic.

I don't assume that there is a infinite number of people willing to become terrorists. We don't know how many of them will turn, a we will never know. The key here is to attain the reason WHY they turn to terrorism. It could be as simple as one US soldier in the field, flinging profanities and racist remarks throughout the streets of Baghdad that creates a terrorist. Until we solve this , I don't believe the answer is more troops. Its as simple as you assuming there is a finite number of them out there, and throwing "X amount of dollars" to solve it.



Then how about NK???

The relationship between terrorists and Iran is RELEVANT! IF you kill Iranians, and take away their military machine, they will respond with Terrorism! You kill North Koreans and take away their military capabilities, and you will have a new form of Terror from Asians.

Unless of course you Nukem......thats the response I hear from a lot of people around here. Instead of seriously contemplating a solution, they resort to the "nukem all" answer. They giggle sheepishly and say that they are joking after you call them on their answer. Are they joking? Thats what scares me. Bush is one of those guys
The cost of war figure above is probably not eve a 1/2 of the real cost of war. I'd say that over last 4 years, the cost of Iraqi war was over a $1 trillion + 3100 US soldiers + thousands of innocent Iraqis...no price on last two!

Well, first he publically calls them (Iraq, NK and Iran) the Axis of Evil -- the public enemy #1. Then he attacks unlawfully the sovereign country and realizes that there is nothing there, so he changes his objective to "spreading the democracy" around. Then he threatens NK to which they tell him to F off and they build the nuke. Then, he realizes that we're so fu**ed that the only way is to write Koreans a check. Now, he's playing tough with Iran because he knows they do not have it yet...

All in all, he fueled them to build the stuff. He gave them the reason to do it instead of opposite. Yes, NK can take the check and say OK...for another one OBL can have what we already made...

This guy is killing us and would kill the rest of the world if he had another term...
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      02-21-2007, 10:57 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Iguy View Post
Clarification: Ok, the debt is not completely due to the war. $450 billion....where did you get that number? Hopefully not from a quote or summary Bush wrote. I think this number is low but hey, I'm no expert.

The US retreat from Somalia swelled Bin Ladens forces? Proof? Did we count them all? Assumptions and a scare tactic.

I don't assume that there is a infinite number of people willing to become terrorists. We don't know how many of them will turn, a we will never know. The key here is to attain the reason WHY they turn to terrorism. It could be as simple as one US soldier in the field, flinging profanities and racist remarks throughout the streets of Baghdad that creates a terrorist. Until we solve this , I don't believe the answer is more troops. Its as simple as you assuming there is a finite number of them out there, and throwing "X amount of dollars" to solve it.
The numbers come from the Congressional Research Service, the report is here.

It is bin Laden himself who said the American retreat from Somalia emboldened his followers and swelled his ranks. Read his statements, listen to the interviews he has given it is pretty clear that he looked upon our actions in Somalia and inaction elsewhere as a sign of weakness to be exploited.

I wonder how many people in 1943 were worried about "why" someone became a Nazi or a Kamikaze? We simply worried about defeating them not understanding them.

Terrorism is a tactic used to obtain political objectives. We are in a no-win situation if we focus only on interdicting those who will conduct the terrorist attacks and ignore altering the dynamic that makes the political objectives seem attainable at an acceptable cost. This is the essence of asymmetrical warfare. While we need to prevent future attacks by targeting the terrorists themselves, we also need to make the price paid by those who direct, fund, support the terrorists unbearably high. This is the key to ending terrorism.
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      02-21-2007, 11:17 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Well, first he publically calls them (Iraq, NK and Iran) the Axis of Evil -- the public enemy #1. Then he attacks unlawfully the sovereign country and realizes that there is nothing there, so he changes his objective to "spreading the democracy" around. Then he threatens NK to which they tell him to F off and they build the nuke. Then, he realizes that we're so fu**ed that the only way is to write Koreans a check. Now, he's playing tough with Iran because he knows they do not have it yet...

All in all, he fueled them to build the stuff. He gave them the reason to do it instead of opposite. Yes, NK can take the check and say OK...for another one OBL can have what we already made...

This guy is killing us and would kill the rest of the world if he had another term...
The cost is the cost in dollars. If you "think" it is higher, oh well... this is the amount the Congress has appropriated. Or do you believe the Pentagon has its own printing press in the basement creating their own supply of $100 bills?

The war in Iraq is not "unlawful" no matter how many times you say it is.

President Bush spoke about the importance of bringing democracy to Iraq before the invasion. - Read the Oct 2002 speech in Cincinnati.

North Korea had a nuclear program long before President Bush took office.

How many inaccurate statements can you fit into a single post?
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      02-21-2007, 11:53 AM   #30
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Ganeil, were you a poli sci major in college? You have sound arguments and back them up. Nice writing.
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      02-21-2007, 12:07 PM   #31
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Ganeil, were you a poli sci major in college? You have sound arguments and back them up. Nice writing.
Yes I was and then a lifetime working with these issues. thanks
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      02-21-2007, 05:44 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
The cost is the cost in dollars. If you "think" it is higher, oh well... this is the amount the Congress has appropriated. Or do you believe the Pentagon has its own printing press in the basement creating their own supply of $100 bills?

The war in Iraq is not "unlawful" no matter how many times you say it is.

President Bush spoke about the importance of bringing democracy to Iraq before the invasion. - Read the Oct 2002 speech in Cincinnati.

North Korea had a nuclear program long before President Bush took office.

How many inaccurate statements can you fit into a single post?
Don't you think it would have been stupid from Bush to say THE ONLY reason to attack Iraq was the WMD??? Even if 100% certain, you always need a back-up plan. Expecially if you were 80% certain you were not going to find the WMD in there...
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      02-21-2007, 05:44 PM   #33
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Yes I was and then a lifetime working with these issues. thanks
I love talking to Neil...however, some of the replies are...mechanical
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      02-21-2007, 06:40 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Don't you think it would have been stupid from Bush to say THE ONLY reason to attack Iraq was the WMD??? Even if 100% certain, you always need a back-up plan. Expecially if you were 80% certain you were not going to find the WMD in there...
Well I think at least 2/3 of the American people know and agree that Bush is a complete idiot and pretty damn stupid. His popularity poll proves that.

I don't like the way it was presented to the world...the reasons behind invading Iraq. However, the soldiers there and the people working in Iraq can all see that the Iraqi people generally approve of the American presence and are grateful for Hussein being removed from power. It is religious violence that is tearing the country apart at the moment.

While Iraq was a "sovereign" nation at the time of the invasion, it is pretty much agreed that Hussein was an evil man and did terrible things. His removal from power is maybe not necessarily a good thing in the short term, but might prove to be a great thing in the long term for the Iraqi people.
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      02-22-2007, 03:32 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by yellowg555 View Post
While Iraq was a "sovereign" nation at the time of the invasion, it is pretty much agreed that Hussein was an evil man and did terrible things. His removal from power is maybe not necessarily a good thing in the short term, but might prove to be a great thing in the long term for the Iraqi people.
1) Iraq was definitely sovereign country and the member of the UN -- no doubt about that.
2) No doubt Hussein was an evil person -- to his people. Not to me or you or Bush or any of us. His own people should have dealt with that. Yes, it is great he is not in power any more, but definitely not worth 3200 of US kid's lives...
3) Yep, looks to me we care more about the long term outcome for Iraqi people than my own kids! In a long run, this war will cost us much more than what the White House reports in dollars. That is the problem I have with all this -- you and I may not feel it, or will be very old by the time it reflects our lives, but our kids are very much screwed...
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      02-22-2007, 08:34 AM   #36
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Don't you think it would have been stupid from Bush to say THE ONLY reason to attack Iraq was the WMD??? Even if 100% certain, you always need a back-up plan. Expecially if you were 80% certain you were not going to find the WMD in there...
Then I guess it is a good thing he did not say WMD was the only reason for removing Saddam from power!

I have to tell you that I have never encountered someone who will pontificate so much on a subject that he knows so little about as you. You have a preconceived notion of how the world operates and simply discount any evidence to the contrary as propaganda or a conspiracy.

It is sad.
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      02-22-2007, 08:39 AM   #37
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1) Iraq was definitely sovereign country and the member of the UN -- no doubt about that.
2) No doubt Hussein was an evil person -- to his people. Not to me or you or Bush or any of us. His own people should have dealt with that. Yes, it is great he is not in power any more, but definitely not worth 3200 of US kid's lives...
3) Yep, looks to me we care more about the long term outcome for Iraqi people than my own kids! In a long run, this war will cost us much more than what the White House reports in dollars. That is the problem I have with all this -- you and I may not feel it, or will be very old by the time it reflects our lives, but our kids are very much screwed...
Iraq is a sovereign country and a member of the UN, only now it is not in violation of more than a dozen Chapter VII UN Resolutions.

The Soldiers who have lost their lives in Iraq were not "kids", they were adults who made an adult decision to serve their country. Do NOT degrade their service and sacrifice by implying that they were too young to decide for themselves what they valued and what was worth sacrificing for. I lived with, served with, and led these fine young Americans and I can assure you that every single one of them has a greater grasp of what is at stake than you have shown.
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      02-22-2007, 05:38 PM   #38
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Iraq is a sovereign country and a member of the UN, only now it is not in violation of more than a dozen Chapter VII UN Resolutions.

The Soldiers who have lost their lives in Iraq were not "kids", they were adults who made an adult decision to serve their country. Do NOT degrade their service and sacrifice by implying that they were too young to decide for themselves what they valued and what was worth sacrificing for. I lived with, served with, and led these fine young Americans and I can assure you that every single one of them has a greater grasp of what is at stake than you have shown.
WOW! So when you do not have a comeback you pick something else to drill...

Kind of like the Media in the US cannot show us a positive thing in Iraq, so Anna Nicole is all over the TV. Or Bush is so stuck, he calls the alies pull outs a success...while my relative is packing his bags.

Yes, they are KIDS for their parents and they will always be. Just like that KID that died and his mom (Cindy something) is trying to voice herself and get the answers WHY. She was told that her son went there to stop a mad man making the WMD that could hurt us, not because our leader did not like the way the system operated in Iraq... Then Bush and his puppets call her un patriotic!

So, stop trying to show me/us some emotion by bolding out your lines. Still telling me the same crap -- you'reso stuck on your "knowledge" and thoughts that it really does not matter that 70% of Americans are questioning the validity and reasons for the War. Maybe all 70% of us are cluless and stupid???
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      02-22-2007, 06:09 PM   #39
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WOW! So when you do not have a comeback you pick something else to drill...

Kind of like the Media in the US cannot show us a positive thing in Iraq, so Anna Nicole is all over the TV. Or Bush is so stuck, he calls the alies pull outs a success...while my relative is packing his bags.

Yes, they are KIDS for their parents and they will always be. Just like that KID that died and his mom (Cindy something) is trying to voice herself and get the answers WHY. She was told that her son went there to stop a mad man making the WMD that could hurt us, not because our leader did not like the way the system operated in Iraq... Then Bush and his puppets call her un patriotic!

So, stop trying to show me/us some emotion by bolding out your lines. Still telling me the same crap -- you'reso stuck on your "knowledge" and thoughts that it really does not matter that 70% of Americans are questioning the validity and reasons for the War. Maybe all 70% of us are cluless and stupid???
I am someone's child, that does not make me a kid.

Cindy Sheehan's son, Casey, went to Iraq for the same reason every soldier who has deployed went. He made an adult decision to volunteer to serve his country and the legitimate elected representatives of his country sent him there.

Since you like public opinion polls so much:

Quote:
AMERICA SAYS LET'S WIN WAR

By ANDY SOLTIS

February 21, 2007 -- In a dramatic finding, a new poll shows a solid majority of Americans still wants to win the war in Iraq - and keep U.S. troops there until the Baghdad government can take over.

Strong majorities also say victory is vital to the War on Terror and that Americans should support President Bush even if they have concerns about the way the war is being handled, according to the survey conducted by Public Opinion Strategies.

The poll found that 57 percent of Americans supported "finishing the job in Iraq" - keeping U.S. troops there until the Iraqis can provide security on their own. Forty-one percent disagreed.

By 53 percent to 43 percent they also believe victory in Iraq over the insurgents is still possible. ... Source
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      02-23-2007, 03:33 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I am someone's child, that does not make me a kid.

Cindy Sheehan's son, Casey, went to Iraq for the same reason every soldier who has deployed went. He made an adult decision to volunteer to serve his country and the legitimate elected representatives of his country sent him there.

Since you like public opinion polls so much:
First of all he joined to DEFEND his country, not to go around attacking whoever the president wants. Our Military is guided by the Dept of DEFENSE, not offense. Get that??? THat is the difference that none of people that joined were told -- you will go and risk your life whenever the cowboy feels like attacking someone...

As for the polls, you're so funny and determined.
I guess, according to you:
1) Americans love W
2) Americans think he's doing the greatest job
3) Americans are all for this war and to continue even when the rest pull out
4) Americans want more of Bush.

Please dig out those polls for me, too...
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      02-23-2007, 08:32 AM   #41
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First of all he joined to DEFEND his country, not to go around attacking whoever the president wants. Our Military is guided by the Dept of DEFENSE, not offense. Get that??? THat is the difference that none of people that joined were told -- you will go and risk your life whenever the cowboy feels like attacking someone...

As for the polls, you're so funny and determined.
I guess, according to you:
1) Americans love W
2) Americans think he's doing the greatest job
3) Americans are all for this war and to continue even when the rest pull out
4) Americans want more of Bush.

Please dig out those polls for me, too...
WRONG AGAIN!

Casey Sheehan re-enlisted in 2004 with the full knowledge that his unit was heading to Iraq. He volunteered to accompany his unit to Iraq. He and the rest of our deployed soldiers went because we, through our elected representatives sent them.

The poll does not claim to show any of the things you mention. It is not concerned with the popularity of any politician. It is about how the American people want to win this war. Something you obviously do not want to do.
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      02-23-2007, 09:11 AM   #42
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WRONG AGAIN!

Casey Sheehan re-enlisted in 2004 with the full knowledge that his unit was heading to Iraq. He volunteered to accompany his unit to Iraq. He and the rest of our deployed soldiers went because we, through our elected representatives sent them.

The poll does not claim to show any of the things you mention. It is not concerned with the popularity of any politician. It is about how the American people want to win this war. Something you obviously do not want to do.

This war -- I give rat's ass about.

The real war on terror and to make us safer -- I would definitely love to see it won. But we put that war, far more important behind us and we're fighting something else -- we're fighting a lost battle and trying not to get embarrased for not accomplishing mad man's idea. We should drop out of that crap and mess that WE created and focus on our safety and the real definition of "war on terror".
Ahhh...it is too late for that.
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      02-23-2007, 09:22 AM   #43
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This war -- I give rat's ass about.

The real war on terror and to make us safer -- I would definitely love to see it won. But we put that war, far more important behind us and we're fighting something else -- we're fighting a lost battle and trying not to get embarrased for not accomplishing mad man's idea. We should drop out of that crap and mess that WE created and focus on our safety and the real definition of "war on terror".
Ahhh...it is too late for that.
You may not but al-Qaeda sure does. Do you deny that al-Qaeda conducts operations in Iraq?
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      02-23-2007, 11:51 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
This war -- I give rat's ass about.

The real war on terror and to make us safer -- I would definitely love to see it won. But we put that war, far more important behind us and we're fighting something else -- we're fighting a lost battle and trying not to get embarrased for not accomplishing mad man's idea. We should drop out of that crap and mess that WE created and focus on our safety and the real definition of "war on terror".
Ahhh...it is too late for that.
The "War on Terror" is just propaganda and most likely can never be won...just like the "War on Drugs". I believe the "War on Drugs" is at least 20 years old, and still has yet to be anywhere near a success. You simply can't fight a war against something that cannot be conquered or destroyed. In the case of the "War on Drugs", there is no way we can destroy the insatiable appetite of the American people's for drugs. In the case of the "War on Terror", we probably will never destroy other people's hatred for this country.

I think the best thing we can do is not try to "win" these "wars" but to try to mitigate the damage caused by drug abuse and terrorism. It may sound like a defeatist attitude, but no matter how technologically superior we are in the wars on drugs and terror, people will still be affected and sadly, people will still die. Lessening the death numbers is a more realistic approach to this madness.
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