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      01-20-2011, 05:07 PM   #1
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The Case Against Lance Armstrong

From Sports Illustrated. Very long, detailed, almost tedious read. Very compelling though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SI
AS THE CYCLIST AND CANCER CRUSADER FACES POSSIBLE INDICTMENT BY A GRAND JURY, SI TAKES A CLOSE LOOK AT OLD AND NEW ALLEGATIONS THAT HE USED PERFORMANCE-ENHANCING DRUGS WHILE WINNING TOUR DE FRANCE CHAMPIONSHIPS
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http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...44/1/index.htm
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      01-20-2011, 07:27 PM   #2
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sad to see, but the only surprising thing about this is that it didn't happen sooner.
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      01-20-2011, 07:33 PM   #3
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Reports from a local sports personality (Dan Bernstein) indicated that, the really, juicy, damning stuff was pulled by legal. And considering how damning the article already is, you gotta wonder what was pulled
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      01-20-2011, 07:47 PM   #4
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There are some sports where it is so prevalent that it must be ignored for the sake of the popularity of the sport. They all use something..

Look at the NFL. It is full of illegal Peds. But the image of the sport is not being tarnished by bad publicity and senate hearings like MLB had to go through. That's why I give Goodell credit. Selig hurt the game of baseball. Goodell protected football.
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      01-20-2011, 09:34 PM   #5
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this is about cycling and defrauding the US government...
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      01-20-2011, 11:38 PM   #6
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Been following this for quite a while.... and still not sure where I stand.

Of course if he's guilty I'd hate for him to get credit where credit isn't due, but at the same time no one can deny what he's done for cancer research, etc. so I'd also hate to see all of of those great inspirational accomplishments get downplayed/tossed aside so that they can burn this dude at the stake and make an example out of him.

Much as Lance was quoted saying, doping is very prevalent in cycling. Lots and lots of riders say the same thing, so it's obvious a conviction isn't going to change how the sport is played.

Again, I'm on the fence, but I'd have to say that it's a loose/loose and proving Lance's guilt (or at least trying to prove it) will ultimately ONLY hurt the sport.



And regardless of how you feel about Lance as a person.. Landis/LeMond are some of the worlds biggest douche-nozzles. There is rarely ever been anyone who whine as much as these two do. Landis isn't sorry for what he did, he's just sorry he got caught and LeMond is just a bitter person all around.
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      01-21-2011, 01:32 AM   #7
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Personally, I have nothing against or for Lance Armstrong but considering that the vast majority of cyclists at that level use PEDs then it would make sense that he would be an abuser too. On the other end there are always athlete of exceptional capacity that defy logic. Gordie Howe played Hockey in the NHL well into his fifties so he could play with his sons.

The one thing I like about Lance Armstrong is that he is able to come clean so far and that pisses the French tremendously. They are furious that he has the record for the most wins, consecutively on top of that. They seem to think that only frenchmen should win the Tour de France and that foreigners should be only tolerated.
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      01-21-2011, 06:09 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTM View Post
this is about cycling and defrauding the US government...
I know.. I read the article. I guess I was just generalizing about the use of peds in professional sports. I don't know how I feel about letting the government get involved with sports. It feels like a waste of resources.
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      01-21-2011, 09:07 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feyd View Post
Been following this for quite a while.... and still not sure where I stand.

Of course if he's guilty I'd hate for him to get credit where credit isn't due, but at the same time no one can deny what he's done for cancer research, etc.
Right, but, if he's guilty, do the ends justify the means? It's fraud (amongst the other charges being brought), no matter if he used the money to buy homeless babies food, donated a fair amount to cancer research, or bought black market nukes.

It took me a few reads, but on the 3rd you really start to get an appreciation for the level of deception and should even just half of the allegations prove true, I wouldn't include Lance on my list of "good people"
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      01-21-2011, 09:07 AM   #10
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      01-21-2011, 10:15 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCGP View Post
I don't know how I feel about letting the government get involved with sports. It feels like a waste of resources.
Understatment of the century right there.



Quote:
Originally Posted by BTM View Post
Right, but, if he's guilty, do the ends justify the means? It's fraud (amongst the other charges being brought), no matter if he used the money to buy homeless babies food, donated a fair amount to cancer research, or bought black market nukes.

It took me a few reads, but on the 3rd you really start to get an appreciation for the level of deception and should even just half of the allegations prove true, I wouldn't include Lance on my list of "good people"
No I'm with you... It'll be interesting to see how much a court would award damages on the $32million the USPS paid for the team. After all there were lots of members that benefitted from the sponsorship, not just Lance..

As I've said, I've been following this for quite a while (~2 years I'd say) and there is clearly some deceptive practices going on. Not just with Armstrong, but all cycling teams. Probobly why I think it intrigues me so much.. it's like a real life crime thriller coming to life.

FWIW, he probobly wouldn't make my list either, but there are far worse people out there who claim to be angelic (something Lance has never wanted/tried to be). Not saying the ends justify the means, but I guarantee there are people out there who won't care one iota about him being guilty or not.
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      01-21-2011, 01:00 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCGP View Post
I know.. I read the article. I guess I was just generalizing about the use of peds in professional sports. I don't know how I feel about letting the government get involved with sports. It feels like a waste of resources.
Seriously? Billions of dollars are spent each year on sports or sports-related activities/products, and probably billions of man-hours are spent each year on sports. I would think we need more regulation of the sports industry, not less (think: NCAA and its ongoing anti-trust violations that the DOJ doesn't seem to have any interest in).
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      01-21-2011, 02:20 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feyd View Post
No I'm with you... It'll be interesting to see how much a court would award damages on the $32million the USPS paid for the team. After all there were lots of members that benefitted from the sponsorship, not just Lance..

As I've said, I've been following this for quite a while (~2 years I'd say) and there is clearly some deceptive practices going on. Not just with Armstrong, but all cycling teams. Probobly why I think it intrigues me so much.. it's like a real life crime thriller coming to life.

FWIW, he probobly wouldn't make my list either, but there are far worse people out there who claim to be angelic (something Lance has never wanted/tried to be). Not saying the ends justify the means, but I guarantee there are people out there who won't care one iota about him being guilty or not.
After following all the PED use in baseball this blood doping aspect really interested me...Catlin and his affiliation with Armstrong and the 9:1 outlier he never acknowledged, hemocrit levels, the differences between testosterone and epitestosterone, HemmAssist and Baxter (based in Deerfield lol) and it's very short range of detectability, and Michele Ferrari drastically changing his blood doping regimes after Lance was diagnosed with cancer, their continued contact through 2009....just goes on and on and on, from the beginning of his career straight through today

It's clearly a level in this case that is above and beyond a simple cyclist looking for an advantage. He ran the team, and if accounts are true, the blood doping was basically a team order, from him. The article lists the potential for conspiracy, wire fraud, money laundering, racketeering, trafficking, and defrauding the US gov't. That's a little more serious than your average steroid/doping case lol. I consider Tony La Russa and Mark McGuire to be among the worst, but their legal transgressions don't even begin to compare with that list.

It sort of reminds me of Enron TBH, everyone in the organization knew what was going on, and even those who knew it was wrong didn't really have a choice but to go with it. They were illegally making the energy market, he was doing likewise in cycling.
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      01-21-2011, 02:21 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYCGP View Post
I know.. I read the article. I guess I was just generalizing about the use of peds in professional sports. I don't know how I feel about letting the government get involved with sports. It feels like a waste of resources.
The USPS is an independent, for-profit organization.
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      01-21-2011, 07:38 PM   #15
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      01-22-2011, 10:41 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BTM View Post
It sort of reminds me of Enron TBH, everyone in the organization knew what was going on, and even those who knew it was wrong didn't really have a choice but to go with it. They were illegally making the energy market, he was doing likewise in cycling.
Since you are fan, I'm sure you've seen it but just in case you didn't the Enron Documentary is pretty entertaining/sickening. Should be able to get it on Netflix.

Another good one is "Who killed the electric car".
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      01-22-2011, 12:25 PM   #17
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I found the Enron one to be pretty good, but "Who Killed..." to be more propagandistic than factual...different topic, different thread
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