BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion
 
GT Haus
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-22-2011, 12:33 PM   #177
e85sbm
Snow Wizard
 
e85sbm's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW & MINI
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Calgary, Canada

Posts: 385
iTrader: (2)

I don't think the posters from the US market really understand what is happening globally and in the EU market with the upcoming emissions restrictions.

Either BMW adapts and creates smaller, more efficient engines, or they pay massive taxes and fees, eventually going out of business. Does this really sound like something you guys want; BMW closing its doors forever?


Also, there seems to be plenty of discussion with this as an 'entry level' engine. The 28i model is an entry level model for a only a small part of the BMW line-up in the USA (1 series, X3, 5 series), however, where we will see a better and more efficient 'entry level' (323/320 - depending on year)

So that brings me to question, what will be the next engine produced as a detuned version of this engine, or potentially an all new engine to fill in the 323 position.
e85sbm is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 01:08 PM   #178
SteVTEC
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: '11 335i vert
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC burbs

Posts: 201
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e85sbm View Post
I don't think the posters from the US market really understand what is happening globally and in the EU market with the upcoming emissions restrictions.

Either BMW adapts and creates smaller, more efficient engines, or they pay massive taxes and fees, eventually going out of business. Does this really sound like something you guys want; BMW closing its doors forever?
I do understand. That doesn't require BMW to discontinue their naturally aspirated Inline-6 engine line and shove this new turbo 4-banger down everyone's throats whether they want it or not, though. I'm not upset that this new turbo-4 exists. It makes a lot of sense. I'm just upset that they're doing so at the expense of their NA Inline-6 line for which they've been known and praised for decades 'over here'.
SteVTEC is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 02:13 PM   #179
magbarn
Private First Class
 
Drives: '10 335d on boat
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Southern CA

Posts: 127
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e85sbm View Post
I don't think the posters from the US market really understand what is happening globally and in the EU market with the upcoming emissions restrictions.

Either BMW adapts and creates smaller, more efficient engines, or they pay massive taxes and fees, eventually going out of business. Does this really sound like something you guys want; BMW closing its doors forever?
Then continue building NA I6 variants here in Spartanburg to be sold to the US market. I'd get a US built F30 if it mean I could get a NA I6. (I have a D now, but was planning on selling it and getting a F30 once my loans are paid off and won't have to drive to a rural area anymore!) We have dumb ass CAFE, but at least displacement isn't penalized and BMW can also avoid a ton of issues like currency exchange and tariffs.
__________________

2010 335d Monaco/Oyster/Light Burl/PP/SP/Navi/Ipod/Enhanced Premium Audio
Click here forExterior pics
Click here for interior pics
magbarn is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 02:52 PM   #180
Tiz113
Chief Sitting Bull
 
Tiz113's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 328xi E92
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: CT

Posts: 6,014
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
you guys gotta remember how heavy are bimmers are not light like the s2000!
Tiz113 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 03:16 PM   #181
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: IB/PS M-DCT E93 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,562
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
See this schedule of the 4-cylinder switchover - http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=478254

Seems September of this year will be the earliest we'll see this motor used.
When I made the original list of future turbo 4 candidates I left off the X1. I did that because it's release was imminent. So SCOTT didn't mention the date for it in his reply. I am pretty sure it will be out before September. I would think March, but that's just a guess. Of course, it won't be in the US that soon, but could be in Canada.
__________________
2008 Interlagos Blue E93 M3 - FOR SALE - Engine failure at 95k miles.
Best offer takes it: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1#post16279561
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 04:53 PM   #182
amdmaxx
My gift Registry: M1
 
amdmaxx's Avatar
 
Drives: Future Mowner of Monster
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: USA

Posts: 1,334
iTrader: (0)

Doesnt Audi make a 270hp version of 2.0? aka in Golf R..
amdmaxx is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 05:18 PM   #183
AW128i
Major
 
AW128i's Avatar
 
Drives: E82 N51
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Southeastern, PA

Posts: 1,004
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to AW128i
Quote:
Originally Posted by amdmaxx View Post
Doesnt Audi make a 270hp version of 2.0? aka in Golf R..
Yep, the Golf R has 265hp, as does the Audi TTS, and I think the S3 as well. The VW/Audi group basically has three iterations: 200 hp/207 lb-ft, 211 hp/258 lb-ft, and 265 hp/258 lb-ft. Those numbers are slightly different outside the U.S.
AW128i is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 09:48 PM   #184
JB135MDCT
I'm just a cook
 
JB135MDCT's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 135i DCT
Join Date: May 2010
Location: MD

Posts: 956
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by maswastage View Post
Sure you may average 24mpg in your 135, but how much of that is highway driving? I used to average 35 when my commute was 75% highway, but that's hardly a fair representation of "combined" mpg.

The math may be a bit off because the number I used for comparison, the 27 mpg combined figure for the US 335d, is demonstrably low. In 50-50 mixed driving it's actually closer to 30-31 mpg. Even using 31 in the proportion, the estimated efficiency for the 4 cylinder is 25.7. Not exactly ground breaking.
Steady 65 gets me 31+ mpg. 24-5 mpg 50-50 driving. Now drop 2 cylinders from an N55 and you get the new I4T, so the 25.7 mpg doesn't jive. If you make the new I4T with same power as the N55 then I might consider your #s.
JB135MDCT is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 10:50 PM   #185
JoosyJoos
Major
 
JoosyJoos's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 335i Coupe
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Johns Creek, GA

Posts: 1,292
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [0.00]
Send a message via AIM to JoosyJoos
Quote:
Originally Posted by JB135MDCT View Post
Steady 65 gets me 31+ mpg. 24-5 mpg 50-50 driving. Now drop 2 cylinders from an N55 and you get the new I4T, so the 25.7 mpg doesn't jive. If you make the new I4T with same power as the N55 then I might consider your #s.
You guys are forgetting one of the biggest variables yet. That number is the EPA (or European equivalent) for the X1... which is a significantly heavier vehicle than the 3 series and 1 series I am guessing. Just saying...
__________________

1998 M3 Vert
1995 M3 Track Car
2008 335i - Retired
JoosyJoos is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 11:15 PM   #186
Speedlogix
Private
 
Drives: 2011 X5 35i
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Florida

Posts: 63
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
That is pretty impressive!!
Speedlogix is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 11:34 PM   #187
e85sbm
Snow Wizard
 
e85sbm's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW & MINI
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Calgary, Canada

Posts: 385
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteVTEC View Post
I do understand. That doesn't require BMW to discontinue their naturally aspirated Inline-6 engine line and shove this new turbo 4-banger down everyone's throats whether they want it or not, though. I'm not upset that this new turbo-4 exists. It makes a lot of sense. I'm just upset that they're doing so at the expense of their NA Inline-6 line for which they've been known and praised for decades 'over here'.
That sounds great and ideal, however, there would be a significant change in the cost of production to make 1 model for 1 market with 1 engine choice.

So instead of paying the typical prices you are accustomed to, you would be willing to pay a premium to have an I6?
e85sbm is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 12:16 AM   #188
Robert
Major General
 
Drives: 135i, current is350
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Socal

Posts: 6,893
iTrader: (1)

wow 17 psi already...
__________________
- There's nothing in my pocket other than knives and lint
Robert is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 03:57 AM   #189
simianspeedster
Captain
 
Drives: 2013 128i Coupe Manual
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Vast Interwebs...

Posts: 604
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e85sbm View Post
Either BMW adapts and creates smaller, more efficient engines, or they pay massive taxes and fees, eventually going out of business. Does this really sound like something you guys want; BMW closing its doors forever?
Come on, now. That's a bit overdramatic, don't you think? Of course there's nothing wrong with BMW developing new, more efficient engines and stuffing them in their mainstream cars for those drivers who don't care as much about the details. There are many ways to balance the issue so BMW can meet the mainstream mileage and emissions goals while maintaining an enthusiast presence for those of us who care.

The regulations don't preclude BMW from continuing to offer enthusiast drivetrains, they'll just cost more and I'll pay the difference. If they're produced in high enough volume, BMW may incur some penalties which they'll all pass along -- I'll eat that to. It'll be similar to the gas guzzler tax today in the U.S. -- it's just the cost of doing business for some cars.

I fear that BMW will end up offering only 3 basic engines in the U.S. -- a turbo 4, a turbo 6 and a turbo 8 -- and the M cars will just have tweaked versions of these engines. That would be a huge disappointment, but if you think about it, that appears to be where BMW is headed in the U.S.

Quick, name a 2011 Honda that you really want to drive on a fun backroad. BMW should do it's best not to become a volume producer like Honda who prioritizes efficiency to the extent that they kill any red-blooded interest in the brand. Regulations and fear can't be allowed to dominate BMW's product development efforts.

Simply stated, BMW can't afford to sacrifice the sizeable performance enthusiast portion of their customer base or the brand will eventually erode and they'll lose their ability to charge premiums over other brands.
simianspeedster is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 06:11 AM   #190
quality_sound
8 tracks of madness
 
Drives: Slowly
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: At home

Posts: 2,731
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedlogix View Post
That is pretty impressive!!
No, it's really not.
quality_sound is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 08:04 AM   #191
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: IB/PS M-DCT E93 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,562
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e85sbm View Post
So that brings me to question, what will be the next engine produced as a detuned version of this engine, or potentially an all new engine to fill in the 323 position.
Depending on the model, It will either be a lower power version of the 2L turbo 4, a version of the new turbo 1.6L BMW/Mini motor, or even possibly a verssion of the new turbo 3 cylinder. The debut of the F20 1 series later this year should reveal a lot more detail in this area.

By the way, some countries have 16i (mabe 18i too, still) as their entry level gasoline model.
__________________
2008 Interlagos Blue E93 M3 - FOR SALE - Engine failure at 95k miles.
Best offer takes it: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1#post16279561
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 08:08 AM   #192
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: IB/PS M-DCT E93 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,562
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AW128i View Post
Yep, the Golf R has 265hp, as does the Audi TTS, and I think the S3 as well. The VW/Audi group basically has three iterations: 200 hp/207 lb-ft, 211 hp/258 lb-ft, and 265 hp/258 lb-ft. Those numbers are slightly different outside the U.S.
I thought there was a 230hp version too? Maybe in the Scirroco?

Anyway, this new BMW motor will likely be good news for VAG fans. I can see them responding by giving the 2L TFSI more power in certain vehicles. Even if they match BMW in practice using less power, paper specs sometimes sell cars.
__________________
2008 Interlagos Blue E93 M3 - FOR SALE - Engine failure at 95k miles.
Best offer takes it: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1#post16279561
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 08:18 AM   #193
SteVTEC
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: '11 335i vert
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC burbs

Posts: 201
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by e85sbm View Post
That sounds great and ideal, however, there would be a significant change in the cost of production to make 1 model for 1 market with 1 engine choice.

So instead of paying the typical prices you are accustomed to, you would be willing to pay a premium to have an I6?
There's no reason that BMW couldn't sell and market turbo-4 and NA-6 engines alongside each other just as Mercedes and Audi have done and continue to do. It's a marketing decision by BMW to drop the NA-6 line so that they can tout an "all turbo petrol engine lineup". Don't think it has anything to do with cost.
SteVTEC is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 08:38 AM   #194
mkoesel
Moderator
 
Drives: IB/PS M-DCT E93 M3
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

Posts: 13,562
iTrader: (1)

I would not bet the farm on that continuing. Mercedes is know to have a 3L FI engine in development, and rumors suggest it will replace the 3.5L N/A. All other engine configurations (V12, V8, I4) are nearly exclusively turbo at this point (there are still a couple exceptions yes).

VAG contines to scale back the use of both their narrow angle and 90 degre V6, especially in Audi and VW models. The I5 obviously still has a place, but who knows for how long. Turbo 4L V8 is coming and will almost surely spell the end of the N/A 4.2L V8 and 5.2L V10 engines, and they are reportedly going to adopt the turbo W12 for the A8 also. The N/A engines might live in on the R8, but maybe not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SteVTEC View Post
There's no reason that BMW couldn't sell and market turbo-4 and NA-6 engines alongside each other just as Mercedes and Audi have done and continue to do.
__________________
2008 Interlagos Blue E93 M3 - FOR SALE - Engine failure at 95k miles.
Best offer takes it: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthr...1#post16279561
mkoesel is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 10:19 AM   #195
SteVTEC
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: '11 335i vert
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC burbs

Posts: 201
iTrader: (0)

^ Well even if they get rid of theirs also, I think it's more to do with the continual game of one-upsmanship and marketing stance than anything else.

Infiniti has no forced induction motors at the moment, and their 2.5L V6 in the G25 is said to be pretty refined and smooth and has a nice note. 7500rpm redline. Not quite as fast as an N52B30 because it's only 2.5L, but might be a pretty good substitute. I don't think it's likely that Honda/Acura is going to do away with NA powertrains, but it's a shame their entire product lineup is a snoozer at this point. Lexus pretty much all bore me but no turbo powertrains there either. So I think the 'NA torch' will continue, just a question of who will carry it, and if they'll manage to build anything worth buying.

I've changed my sig in honor of BMW's decision to drop NA engines.
__________________
2012 E70 X5d Deep Sea Blue / Sand Beige, Premium, 3rd Row, Multi-Contour
2011 E93 335i Deep Sea Blue / Oyster, Step, Premium, Convenience (PDC & CA)
SteVTEC is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 12:04 PM   #196
Levi
Brigadier General
 
Levi's Avatar
 
Drives: Alfa Romeo
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Germany

Posts: 3,167
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I would not bet the farm on that continuing. Mercedes is know to have a 3L FI engine in development, and rumors suggest it will replace the 3.5L N/A. All other engine configurations (V12, V8, I4) are nearly exclusively turbo at this point (there are still a couple exceptions yes).

VAG contines to scale back the use of both their narrow angle and 90 degre V6, especially in Audi and VW models. The I5 obviously still has a place, but who knows for how long. Turbo 4L V8 is coming and will almost surely spell the end of the N/A 4.2L V8 and 5.2L V10 engines, and they are reportedly going to adopt the turbo W12 for the A8 also. The N/A engines might live in on the R8, but maybe not.
The next R8 may continue having a NA engine as top model, and a FI engine as entry model. I would say a ~ 450 HP V6. Why still keep a NA V10, simply because the coming Aventador will still get a NA V12, and so may the next Gallardo (Sessto Elemento) continue keeping its NA V10. And about the SLS AMG, I do not think the NA 6.3l V8 will be replaced by the BT 5.5l V8. I hope the Z8/Z10 will then also get the NA 5.5l V10 that was developped for the M5 F10.
Levi is offline   Germany
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 12:13 PM   #197
AW128i
Major
 
AW128i's Avatar
 
Drives: E82 N51
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Southeastern, PA

Posts: 1,004
iTrader: (1)

Send a message via AIM to AW128i
I don't know, the 6.2L V8 is being replaced by the twin-turbo V8 is MB's other "63" cars. I think it would be a mistake to keep the 6.2L under the hood of the SLS because the new TT V8 is both more powerful and more fuel-efficient.
AW128i is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 12:16 PM   #198
ScaredOnce
Very Important
 
ScaredOnce's Avatar
 
Drives: 335xi (e92)
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: PIT

Posts: 450
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franz Josef Popp View Post
Great another EU greeny weeny
Lawn Mower engine.
Yup...

Quote:
Originally Posted by simianspeedster View Post
Come on, now. That's a bit overdramatic, don't you think? Of course there's nothing wrong with BMW developing new, more efficient engines and stuffing them in their mainstream cars for those drivers who don't care as much about the details. There are many ways to balance the issue so BMW can meet the mainstream mileage and emissions goals while maintaining an enthusiast presence for those of us who care.

The regulations don't preclude BMW from continuing to offer enthusiast drivetrains, they'll just cost more and I'll pay the difference. If they're produced in high enough volume, BMW may incur some penalties which they'll all pass along -- I'll eat that to. It'll be similar to the gas guzzler tax today in the U.S. -- it's just the cost of doing business for some cars.

I fear that BMW will end up offering only 3 basic engines in the U.S. -- a turbo 4, a turbo 6 and a turbo 8 -- and the M cars will just have tweaked versions of these engines. That would be a huge disappointment, but if you think about it, that appears to be where BMW is headed in the U.S.

Quick, name a 2011 Honda that you really want to drive on a fun backroad. BMW should do it's best not to become a volume producer like Honda who prioritizes efficiency to the extent that they kill any red-blooded interest in the brand. Regulations and fear can't be allowed to dominate BMW's product development efforts.

Simply stated, BMW can't afford to sacrifice the sizeable performance enthusiast portion of their customer base or the brand will eventually erode and they'll lose their ability to charge premiums over other brands.
\

Well said!
ScaredOnce is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:00 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST