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      01-21-2011, 03:22 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by TS335i View Post
N52 doesn't have an intercooler since it is NOT turbocharged...

The N54 is turbocharged, and has an aluminum block...
I think he means the weight of the intercooler, hoses etc on the 4 Cylinder turbo brings the mass equal to that of the n52 which is naturally aspirated.

On a drive-ability standpoint and efficiency standpoint, I think the new 4 turbo is better than the n52, considering their masses will probably be pretty much similar, but the n52 is an inline 6, which is sooo smooth, and so happy at high rpm.
I love my n54 though.
At the very least, every 4cyl needs a balance shaft to offset vibration, which is one of the reasons the inline6 and the flat6 are so sweet.
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      01-21-2011, 03:43 PM   #134
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I know there are a lot of people who are chuffed about having a turbo 4 that they can modify in place of the N52, but I think it's a shame on many levels.

History & Heritage -- As others have mentioned, one thing that sets BMW apart from many other brands is their willingness to celebrate their own history and stick to their roots to a larger degree than other brands. Sure, BMW makes the pointless X6 (sorry, I had to go there), but a bone stock 328i with an N52 and a manual transmission still has the soul of BMW's past. It would be a shame not to offer a naturally aspirated inline 6 for those of us who really, really care about such things.

Questionable Advantages -- For all of you saying this engine will be cheaper, lighter and get better fuel economy, I have two replies:

1) Are you sure? How much cheaper, if any, will it be? How much less, if any, will it weigh with all the extra turbo plumbing? Admittedly, it may get slightly better mileage ratings, but how much, really, in real world driving?

2) More importantly, will the gains be worth what we're losing? Which leads me to:

Inline 6 Advantages -- If raw speed was all we cared about, we probably wouldn't buy BMWs because you can certainly get a faster car for less money. I've driven and/or owned a lot of turbo 4s (TT 1.8T, Passat 1.8T and 2.0T, A4 1.8T and 2.0T, A5 2.0T, MazdaSpeed 6 2.3T, WRX 2.5T off the top of my head) and none of them was as fun or pleasurable to drive than the N52 inline 6. None, in fact, were even close.

Power ratings and other specs tell you nothing about how an engine sounds, feels or drives. The N52 is smooth, efficient, sounds great and has an even powerband free of peaks and other weirdness. The upgraded Audi 2.0T in the current A4 is powerful, but the power delivery is hit and miss and it just doesn't sound or feel good to rev -- it's an appliance engine built for efficiency, not enjoyment. That may be fine for a run of the mill car, but I expect more from BMW.

Having owned a last generation Z4 with the same 255HP N52 I6 in the current base Z4, I have to say it's one of my favorite engines ever. It won't blow the doors off everything else, but that's not the point. It's just such a sweet, smooth, well-balanced engine and it sounds excellent -- you have to drive one to understand. The less powerful 230HP N52 in the current 328i lacks torque (200 lb. ft. max) for heavier applications, but the 255HP variant has just enough torque (230 lb. ft.) to make everything even across the whole rev range.

Though less powerful, I prefer the 255HP N52 to the 300HP N54 or N55 -- it's just more fun to drive even if it's not quite as fast, and this is coming from someone who has an N55 now. In case I'm not being clear -- yes, I would swap my 300HP N55 for the 255HP N52 in my current car if I could. Call me crazy, but it's that much better to me.

Please, BMW -- feel free to *offer* a turbo 4, but if you take away the NA inline 6 option, you're probably going to lose two customers in my house.
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      01-21-2011, 03:45 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TS335i View Post
N52 doesn't have an intercooler since it is NOT turbocharged...

The N54 is turbocharged, and has an aluminum block...
Don't forget the cast iron sleeves.
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      01-21-2011, 03:47 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simianspeedster View Post
I know there are a lot of people who are chuffed about having a turbo 4 that they can modify in place of the N52, but I think it's a shame on many levels.

History & Heritage -- As others have mentioned, one thing that sets BMW apart from many other brands is their willingness to celebrate their own history and stick to their roots to a larger degree than other brands. Sure, BMW makes the pointless X6 (sorry, I had to go there), but a bone stock 328i with an N52 and a manual transmission still has the soul of BMW's past. It would be a shame not to offer a naturally aspirated inline 6 for those of us who really, really care about such things.
If we're talking about history and heritage how about the 4 cyl e30 M3 on the 4cyl turbo BMW 2002, both pretty iconic 4 cyl BMWs
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      01-21-2011, 03:49 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by simianspeedster View Post
I know there are a lot of people who are chuffed about having a turbo 4 that they can modify in place of the N52, but I think it's a shame on many levels.

History & Heritage -- As others have mentioned, one thing that sets BMW apart from many other brands is their willingness to celebrate their own history and stick to their roots to a larger degree than other brands. Sure, BMW makes the pointless X6 (sorry, I had to go there), but a bone stock 328i with an N52 and a manual transmission still has the soul of BMW's past. It would be a shame not to offer a naturally aspirated inline 6 for those of us who really, really care about such things.

Questionable Advantages -- For all of you saying this engine will be cheaper, lighter and get better fuel economy, I have two replies:

1) Are you sure? How much cheaper, if any, will it be? How much less, if any, will it weigh with all the extra turbo plumbing? Admittedly, it may get slightly better mileage ratings, but how much, really, in real world driving?

2) More importantly, will the gains be worth what we're losing? Which leads me to:

Inline 6 Advantages -- If raw speed was all we cared about, we probably wouldn't buy BMWs because you can certainly get a faster car for less money. I've driven and/or owned a lot of turbo 4s (TT 1.8T, Passat 1.8T and 2.0T, A4 1.8T and 2.0T, A5 2.0T, MazdaSpeed 6 2.3T, WRX 2.5T off the top of my head) and none of them was as fun or pleasurable to drive than the N52 inline 6. None, in fact, were even close.

Power ratings and other specs tell you nothing about how an engine sounds, feels or drives. The N52 is smooth, efficient, sounds great and has an even powerband free of peaks and other weirdness. The upgraded Audi 2.0T in the current A4 is powerful, but the power delivery is hit and miss and it just doesn't sound or feel good to rev -- it's an appliance engine built for efficiency, not enjoyment. That may be fine for a run of the mill car, but I expect more from BMW.

Having owned a last generation Z4 with the same 255HP N52 I6 in the current base Z4, I have to say it's one of my favorite engines ever. It won't blow the doors off everything else, but that's not the point. It's just such a sweet, smooth, well-balanced engine and it sounds excellent -- you have to drive one to understand. The less powerful 230HP N52 in the current 328i lacks torque (200 lb. ft. max) for heavier applications, but the 255HP variant has just enough torque (230 lb. ft.) to make everything even across the whole rev range.

Though less powerful, I prefer the 255HP N52 to the 300HP N54 or N55 -- it's just more fun to drive even if it's not quite as fast, and this is coming from someone who has an N55 now. In case I'm not being clear -- yes, I would swap my 300HP N55 for the 255HP N52 in my current car if I could. Call me crazy, but it's that much better to me.

Please, BMW -- feel free to *offer* a turbo 4, but if you take away the NA inline 6 option, you're probably going to lose two customers in my house.
+1 to all of the above.

Dropping the naturally aspirated Inline-6 line is a terrible move on BMW's part. What makes a BMW a BMW to me, are those sweet sounding and freely revving naturally aspirated Inline-6 motors for which they've been known for decades. I can see replacing the I6 with this turbo-4 in the smaller cars, but in the 3 and 5 series?? That's a damned shame.
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      01-21-2011, 03:52 PM   #138
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One more thing: I know I may catch some flack for sounding old school because this turbo 4 will be more powerful than the 230 HP N52 and turbos are back in vogue again, but for me, it's not all about raw speed for the dollar -- it's about driving enjoyment. Even if the turbo 4 represents technical progress, I don't think the turbo 4 is better because it probably doesn't sound as good, feel as good, rev as freely, etc. It's Quality vs. Quantity, and I'll take the former.

To me, a turbo 4 is just like a semi-automatic / dual-clutch transmission -- yes, it's faster, more efficient and it can help you post faster lap times, but I'll still buy a manual as long as I can because I enjoy them so much more.

If BMW ditches the NA inline 6 in favor of a turbo 4, that's only one step shy of ditching the manual transmission in favor of an automatic my book. Of course, that's probably coming soon anyhow...
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      01-21-2011, 03:58 PM   #139
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If we're talking about history and heritage how about the 4 cyl e30 M3 on the 4cyl turbo BMW 2002, both pretty iconic 4 cyl BMWs
True, but the heritage is not as deep, IMO, as it is with the inline 6. BMW = inline 6 in my book and I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that way.

For what it's worth, having owned an E30 M3 from 1988-1991, I can say with a straight face that I'd rather have an N52 engine...which is probably why I always lusted after my friend's dad's M6 back in the day! The E30 remains the most enjoyable car I've ever driven, but that has more to do with the light weight and simplicity of the package than the engine alone. Dropping a tuned N52 into an E30 M3 would be balls out!

One more note -- I'd take a high-strung NA 4 over most turbo 4s, even if it's less powerful. I just don't like the power curve and driving feel of most turbo engines. Maybe that new Porsche engine (rumored to achieve 250HP NA and 300+ HP in turbo form) will be the trick.
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      01-21-2011, 03:58 PM   #140
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Good grief people, if they can make a turbo four with more power and cleaner emissions than the n/a six, what's not to like? Over their history, and certainly globally, BMW is known more for their fours, hell, even their headquarters pays homage to that. Just because US offerings have been mostly I6's for the 3er for the last two generations doesn't mean that the rest of the world hasn't had four cylinder options for both the 3er and the 5er the whole time.
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      01-21-2011, 04:03 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by simianspeedster View Post

If BMW ditches the NA inline 6 in favor of a turbo 4, that's only one step shy of ditching the manual transmission in favor of an automatic my book. Of course, that's probably coming soon anyhow...
That day has already come for most of the M-models made or coming.

Correct me IF I am wrong... but I thought only the 1M and M3 are available in (6MT) manual transmisions. Every other //M is either a DCT or SMG trans. Seems logical that the regular BMW's will be only turbo autos( DCT's) too.

BMW should wake up and continue to offer "some" inline sixes(NA) for us die hards - WITH a 6MT bitte! It's ok to offer the main stream customers a modern turbo four banger... but I would rather have an I6 - Danke BMW.


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      01-21-2011, 04:11 PM   #142
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Good grief people, if they can make a turbo four with more power and cleaner emissions than the n/a six, what's not to like? Over their history, and certainly globally, BMW is known more for their fours, hell, even their headquarters pays homage to that. Just because US offerings have been mostly I6's for the 3er for the last two generations doesn't mean that the rest of the world hasn't had four cylinder options for both the 3er and the 5er the whole time.
What's not to like is the sound, the feel and the NVH of any 4 compared to an inline 6. As I said, I want Quality over Quantity. By your logic, the Hyundai Sonata will probably have a better engine than the BMW 3 and 5 Series if power and emissions are all that count.

I see your point about 4 cylinders outside of the USA, but the most celebrated BMWs in the last few decades usually had an inline 6. Also, not to be myopic, but I live in America, so my experience has been that of an American BMW customer. The 3 Series has primarily used inline 6s in America for nearly 3 decades and all 5 and 7 Series in America primarily used inline 6s going back to the early 1970s (no 4 cylinder option that I'm aware of).

BMW really came into it's own in America in the late 1970s to early 1980s, and the vast majority of BMWs sold in America since then have been inline 6s.
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      01-21-2011, 04:32 PM   #143
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I agree that its a shame to depart with history but times are a changing folks... move with it or get left behind.

You can always buy a well maintained older BMW... nothing wrong with those after all. BMW lost its "true" soul a long long time ago.
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      01-21-2011, 04:36 PM   #144
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no one compared this engine with the Subaru STI engine yet?
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      01-21-2011, 04:51 PM   #145
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If there is one thing that I can't stand in the world, it is a 4 cylinder BMW.. what do they expect it will sound like? an Infinity FX? Fuck! a 3 cylinder is rumored and a 4 cylinder to replace the 28i and below variants! You people just wont get... If I wanted to get a better mpg I'll buy a FRIGGING' CIVIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!
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BMW have tapped into this by mirroring typical BMW dynamics and steering communication within the new UKL cars.
You mean massive body roll, a steering system that is not connected to the front wheels, and the engine note played through the speaker system?!?!?!?!
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      01-21-2011, 05:00 PM   #146
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True, but the heritage is not as deep, IMO, as it is with the inline 6. BMW = inline 6 in my book and I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that way.
You're not alone. BMW = Inline 6 to me also, more specifically naturally aspirated Inline-6. Not a turbo fan here, either.

And thanks for these rants. Saves me the trouble of having to type up nearly identical rants. Glad to know I'm not alone either.

Just to add something, once upon a time I had a fairly recent Passat go flying past me at full throttle. It was one of the newer ones with the 2.0T engine. Not only did it sound completely awful, but the vibrations coming out of that thing were so bad that I could feel it in my own car! Did I mention they were going in the opposite direction and that the two directions of the local highway were separated by a good 20 yards worth of grassy area? Gotta love those Inline-4 engines, nastiest sounding and feeling engines on the planet, and have no place in a BMW imho, especially not a 5-series. Can't believe they're replacing the N52 with this thing in the 528i.

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      01-21-2011, 05:04 PM   #147
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My first BMW had four cylinders. In the smaller BMW's four bangers were the rule for many years. I would have to agree with those who say the turbo 4 will probably not weigh less than the NA6, nor will the new engine cost less either.

I don't know what the future of the DCT is either. Because it has a wet clutch, its fuel efficiency test numbers are not so good due to pumping losses. There are dry clutch DCT's available such as the one in the GTI, but these are very limited in terms of the torque that can be processed.

The 328 is AFIK, BMW's best seller in the US. With the turbo 4 so likely to proliferate, it had better be good, because BMW is betting the store on it.
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      01-21-2011, 05:07 PM   #148
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Hi Ron! (SP77 from Cafe)

Agree - they're definitely betting the store on this, esp in the U.S.

Saw the girl in your avatar and your screen name and the lightbulb above my head lit up, lol
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      01-21-2011, 05:10 PM   #149
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High SP77, go check my thread in the photo section, and see what grief I get here. You also get to see a pic of my ride and joy.
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      01-21-2011, 05:14 PM   #150
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The hallmark of BMW are their engines that use a smooth, inline 6 configuration. I read this in the welcome pack they just sent me!
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      01-21-2011, 05:17 PM   #151
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That's a good point actually. That being said if you remove the catalytic converters, open up the exhaust,and improve upon the intercooler you'll likely see a better improvement over the N55/N54 because the boost levels are higher. My car gained about 45hp at the crank just by switching those things out on the N54 without any tune. Guess we'll find out in due time.

Side note: Am I the only one that thinks a X1 lowered with some decent rims and a roof rack would look sick (if tinted out etc.)?
nope, I do too and I think my fiance will be the recipient of one if she gets a job closer to home next year. Not putting a brand new BMW on the tollway for a 62 mile commute twice a day.
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      01-21-2011, 06:10 PM   #152
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Well comparing a BMW inline turbo 4 vs Audi is not exactly apples to apples either. From what I understood this inline 4 turbo engine would be based off the BMW inline 6 engines and would employ all of their latest technology and will be lighter and more compact. Now how much I am not so sure. If you have the figures please post as I would love to see the comparison.

But from my point of view any time you can give more hp/tq while improving fuel efficiency as well as making an engine more compact and lighter overall....then it is a job well done.



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Not sure if its really going to be that much less mass in the engine compartment. The N52 is one of the lightest production engines of it's size due to the magnesium block and aluminum sleeves. For comparison the modern VW 2.0T FSI weighs 337lbs dry and the N52 weighs 354lbs dry. The N52 is not even 20lbs more than the 2.0t. That's not even counting the weight of the intercooler, supports for the intercooler, hoses, etc.
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      01-21-2011, 06:26 PM   #153
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Going to miss the N52. RIP NA I6 smoothness.
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      01-21-2011, 06:26 PM   #154
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If there is one thing that I can't stand in the world, it is a 4 cylinder BMW.. what do they expect it will sound like? an Infinity FX? Fuck! a 3 cylinder is rumored and a 4 cylinder to replace the 28i and below variants! You people just wont get... If I wanted to get a better mpg I'll buy a FRIGGING' CIVIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!
I agree with you. However my commuter GTI sounds very good but it has a noise pipe from vw to amplify the noise because the regular 2.0T from the Jetta-A4-Passat don't sound has good. My old RSX-S sounded good but it was in an other era and it had an high flow exhaust from factory. The Bmw 4 cylinder will probably be muffled down and will be boring. I had an Audi 1.8T boy it was boring but in my GTI I love the 2.0T.
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Its because a lot of BMW owners are housewives or business professionals and know little about cars other than BMW's are a status symbol in their own circles so that have to have one. But exotic car owners know cars, that's why they are willing to spend for a killer car and they know something different when they see one.
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