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      01-25-2011, 06:52 AM   #199
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Originally Posted by SteVTEC View Post
^ Well even if they get rid of theirs also, I think it's more to do with the continual game of one-upsmanship and marketing stance than anything else.
There's some of that going on of course, but some of the change is due to the effects of new emissions and fuel efficiency regulations.

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Infiniti has no forced induction motors at the moment, and their 2.5L V6 in the G25 is said to be pretty refined and smooth and has a nice note.
True, at least in the US (and maybe elsewhere too, if we exclude diesels) but Nissan does have both turbocharged I4 and V6 gasoline engines. I suspect they will increase the us of these globally throughout this decade.

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I don't think it's likely that Honda/Acura is going to do away with NA powertrains, but it's a shame their entire product lineup is a snoozer at this point. Lexus pretty much all bore me but no turbo powertrains there either. So I think the 'NA torch' will continue, just a question of who will carry it, and if they'll manage to build anything worth buying.
Yes, and I think it is significant that the number of "interesting" naturally aspirated motors is dwindling. The reality is, it is becoming more difficult to make sporty cars with high revving or large displacement motors. Ironically, GM, Ford and Xler may be the ones who carry the torch for the longest. All of them still make (and apparently plan to continue making) high power V6 and V8 engines without forced induction. Though I suppose it is perhaps not so ironic when you consider they need to keep refining these engines for truck duty. But we'll see how Ford's EcoBoost F150 does. If they can win over the customer base, they may begin to de-emphasize their V8 offerings later in the decade with the next generation of the truck.
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      01-25-2011, 04:14 PM   #200
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4 cyl turbo's are great motors. I love mine, powerful and fuel efficient.
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      01-26-2011, 10:52 AM   #201
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Personally I would like to see this type of a lineup in the US, on the 5-series.

525i: new N20 turbo engine, power on par with Audi 2.0T, geared and tuned for max efficiency
530i: high spec N52 or an N53, 250-260hp / 230tq, the traditional NA straight-6 for those that want it.
540i: the N55 tweaked for a bit more power. They're already calling the 7er a 740i with the "35" trim engine so why not the 5-series?

That's your 3 non-M powertrain options that BMW has traditionally offered in the U.S. on the 5er, and I think it makes a lot more sense than what they're planning to do now. A more efficiently tuned N20 engine for those that want it and to prop up average mileage, the tradtional NA I6 for those who prefer that as the mid-level offering, and the turbo-6 at the high end. The gas-guzzling V8 engine gets dropped from the non-M cars and is reserved for the M which would make it a bit more exclusive. This would also prop up fuel mileage averages even more since now you'd need to step up to the M to get the gas sucking V8 if you want it. Kinda lame that future M's are just going to be tweaked turbo engines that you could get from tuning anyways, is that right? Or if they really gotta have the non-M V8 in there, just certify another powertrain option. Of course this wouldn't let BMW marketing tout an "all turbo" petrol engine lineup.

It'd also make sense in the 3-series.

325i (N20),
330i (N52/N53),
335i (N55)
M3 (tweaked N55).

Isn't that what the next gen M3 is going to be anyways, back to an I6 and with a turbo?
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      01-26-2011, 12:02 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteVTEC View Post
Personally I would like to see this type of a lineup in the US, on the 5-series.

...

It'd also make sense in the 3-series.

...
Instead I think it will be:

*30i = "N20" I4
*40i = N55 I6
*50i = N63 V8
*60i = N74 V12

In other words, I agree that the *40i will probably proliferate through the lineup to denote vehicles with the turbo 6. As you point out this is already the case for the 740i (albeit, still with the N54), but it will also apply to the new 640i which will be the first application of the higher output N55.

I realize that the X1 is already confirmed to get the I4 under the "28i" name, but I think that they will continue to use the 30i moniker for the Z4, and similarly add it to the rest of the passenger car lineup as they get this new engine as well. The X3 with the turbo 4 may get keep the 28i name too, though maybe not.

By the way, I am only talking about North America here. There will be plenty of lower power turbo I4 and turbo I3 options in the rest of the world.

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The gas-guzzling V8 engine gets dropped from the non-M cars and is reserved for the M which would make it a bit more exclusive. This would also prop up fuel mileage averages even more since now you'd need to step up to the M to get the gas sucking V8 if you want it.
It would also mean bowing out of a market that the competition is very much staying in (Mercedes with the new 4.7L V8 turbo, and audi with their upcoming 4.0L V8 turbo).

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Kinda lame that future M's are just going to be tweaked turbo engines that you could get from tuning anyways, is that right?
Not exactly, no. Like the S63 already seen in the X5M and X6M, the M engines will have their own hardware. I suspect that the "S55" I6 will feature even more M specific parts than the S63 does currently.

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Isn't that what the next gen M3 is going to be anyways, back to an I6 and with a turbo?
It will be an I6, but it remains to be seen if it will be "a turbo" or "some turbos". I strongly suspect the latter, though I could be wrong.
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      01-26-2011, 07:49 PM   #203
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I do understand your love of NA. engines. I myself think they are awesome. But as a previous owner of NA. inline 6 engines such as M54 both ranging from 195hp to 230 hp and plenty of time behind various N52 versions. I completely understand how smooth and free reving they can be for not overly powerful engines.

However, its not like they rev sky high to intoxicating red line in the way S54 did to well near 8000 rpms to make its power. The N52, and M54 versions merely rev to 6500 rpm before being all done. I am not so sure what version of 335i you are talking about. Because no way is the twin turbo N54 muted by anyones standards that has driven it specially without the exhaust inlet unpluged. In fact the N54 is best sounding BMW inline-6 I have driven with only the NA S54 inline-6 coming any where close in its sounds. Infact even S54 becomes a bit metallic raspy compared to N54. Also, the N54 revs to same 7K rpms that N52 revs to. Only difference is by 5900 rpm you have all of your 300 hp available. To me that is not much difference since the overall difference is mere 500 rpms between the peak power for N52 vs N54.

If you like inline-6 engines and how they sound go give a N54 powered inline-6 twin turbo 335is a try and you would swear that you were at American Le mans series race. The car sounds amazing and has the balls to back up its sound.


As for driving in Houston, Texas we stay in grid locks also during busy traffic hours. But I can assure you that just like N52 you can still rev N54 to its 7000 rpms with in the first 2 gears to get 45-50mph top speed limit of your commute. Only difference will be you better hang on because 50 mph will come a lot sooner and with a lot more drama if you have the traction control off.


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Also you live in Houston (TX), so you have plenty of room to flog the more powerful cars and engines. Not everybody is that fortunate. Here in the DC suburbs it's tough enough to break 45 mph, or have any sort of fun without running into traffic. You have to find things to enjoy in cars other than power, like good handling, or the sweet sounds an engine might make. That's one of the things I could enjoy in a BMW, the sweet sounding and great feeling free-revving yet not overly powerful NA Inline-6, and now they're taking that away by replacing it with this 4-banger turbo. I suppose I could get a 535i, but they're far more muted and it falls into the 'too much power to enjoy' responsibly category for me around here.
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      01-26-2011, 08:12 PM   #204
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If they can give that electric motor the sound of a Ferrari I am all for it and as far as sound goes. The inline-4's can sound very awesome. If you listen to most Japanese super sport class bikes they sound like fighter jets and have a sky high rpm and power delivery so strong that it will bring tears to your eyes. I miss my beat GSXR-1000 no engine put more fear in my heart than that engine with its ear piercing scream when it reved past 10000 rpms. Maybe if BMW gets to work more on the 4 cylinder engine they will be able to tweak the noise you would prefer and get the power delivery more to your liking.

I think its a bit harsh to shoot down something before you have even given it a chance.


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Your opinion is, of course, just as valid as anyone's. My only concern is that thinking like this -- paying attention to the numbers more tha the quality of the experience -- will lead us to sacrifice the character of sports cars to the point where the spectrum of choice will be very narrow.

By your definition, an electric M3 that provided slightly more power, better fuel efficiency and slightly better packaging would be better than the current M3. The specs might say that's true, but I certainly wouldn't want one!
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      01-26-2011, 09:03 PM   #205
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Kayani_1: I wasn't talking about the N54. My comments were specifically from the N55 in the F10 535i. It was dead quiet.
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      01-27-2011, 01:36 AM   #206
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N52 doesn't have an intercooler since it is NOT turbocharged...

The N54 is turbocharged, and has an aluminum block...
I think you misunderstood my post. I know the N52 is naturally aspirated. That's exactly why I like it so much. I was comparing the weight of the VW2.0T (a modern turbo engine) against the N52. I was making the point that if you add the weight of all those extra pieces such as the turbo, intercooler, hoses, etc. to the 2.0T it would weigh nearly as much as and N52. And by the way the N52 actually weighs less than the N54 because the N54 uses an aluminum block and iron liners versus the N52's magnesium block and Alusil liners.
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      01-27-2011, 03:49 AM   #207
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Quote:
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I think its a bit harsh to shoot down something before you have even given it a chance.
I get your point, but I've been at this game long enough and driven enough 4-cylinders to know that BMW can't alter the laws of physics. Simply stated, there is no 2.0L 4 cylinder available today that can match the smoothness of a good, naturally balanced inline 6 like the N52. It's not physically possible with currently available technologies and there's no suggestion BMW has some radical trick up their sleeve. Sure, superbikes make interesting noises, but they have such low displacement that they aren't overwhelmed with the NVH of larger 4 cylinders engines. They don't call 'em 4-bangers for nothing, you know!

Let's put it this way: if I've had ten different kids of pepperoni pizza and I never liked the taste of any of them, what are the odds that the local pizza joint will develop a new pepperoni pizza that I'm really going to like? When my lease is up, I'll certainly drive one of these 4 cylinders before rendering my final opinion, but I'm already prepared for a deep sense of disappointment -- exxperience tells me there's no realistic reason to think it's an unwarranted emotion.
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      01-28-2011, 10:50 AM   #208
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^ Right.

To really "replace" the N52 in my mind, BMW would need to come out with the world's first Inline-4 engine that's powerful, fuel efficient, AND both smooth running, great sounding, and free-revving all at the same time. And I just don't believe they're going to be able to do that. They'll get the power and the fuel efficiency, but I'm guessing it's not going to sound nearly as nice, and that to keep "perceived" vibration and nasty sound down they're going to keep the engine "constrained" and below 3000rpm as much of the time as possible. It will drive completely different than an N52 will. Some will love it, others will hate it. I also will drive it before coming to a decision and final opinion on it, but am similarly prepared to be disappointed. I've been told I have particularly sensitive ears, and have also found just about every modern I-4 I've driven to be pretty nasty sounding and feeling, hence my lack of optimism. BMW isn't immune to the laws of physics.
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      01-28-2011, 11:43 AM   #209
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I saw a pic of the engine and looks like a very clean 1-4 and 2-3 cylinder header. Moding/working on the engine will be much easier and I'm sure you can pull the turbo from the engine bay. AR DP should also be a drop in, although I haven't seen the pic of it.

Looks like the torque curve will kill any I6 NA. I wish I was born in a BMW with an I6 NA, but its time for it to die a slow death.

I'll still keep at least one I6 NA in my stable, can't live with out it.
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      01-28-2011, 12:58 PM   #210
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I can just see this new I4 making a big splash in the tuner zone. I mean... look at what the SRT-4s did and this engine comes stock with already more power. I can't wait to see what the tuners will do to this bad boy.
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      01-28-2011, 02:25 PM   #211
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Yeah, "tuning potential", SRT-4. That's exactly what I think when I think Turbo Inline-4. Mazdaspeed3, Mitsubishi EVO, VWs, GM turbo Ecotecs, Turbo Fords, Subarus (okay those are H-4's but still...). Everybody and their mom has a turbocharged Inline-4 these days. An Inline-6 is something different and fairly exclusive to BMW, and a wonderful piece of machinery. BMW has been known for these things for decades. It's not that they couldn't produce a top notch product (for an I-4) in the segment, but they're going to "cheapen" their image. An Inline-6 and especially an NA I6 is a more sophisticated powertrain for a more sophisticated clientele with more sophisticated tastes. A turbo-I4 is cheap power and cheap thrills for the tuner kid crowd.
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      01-28-2011, 04:05 PM   #212
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I can just see this new I4 making a big splash in the tuner zone. I mean... look at what the SRT-4s did and this engine comes stock with already more power. I can't wait to see what the tuners will do to this bad boy.
Except that BMW has already said they're going to lock down the ECU.
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      01-29-2011, 06:18 PM   #213
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Why not a 2.0L I-6 variant of the N52/ with a supercharger or a 2.0L N54? BMW used to make a 2.0L I-6 back in the day. Everybody does 4-bangers. BMW used to be different.
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      01-29-2011, 07:51 PM   #214
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There are plenty of inline-4 that make awesome sounds. My Gixxer 1000R was like that. The Hayabusa engine in GSXR 1300R has an inline-4 that is 1.3 liter and makes breath taking 196 hp and 157 Ib-ft of torque at sky high rpm of 10500. All this on regular gas with an engine that weighs appx. less then 220 kg. The sound of Hayabusa is so amazing that it reminds you of a jet fighter.

All this with no turbos. The turbo Hayabusa sound as amazing in sound yet routinely make close to 255hp and plenty of healthy torque. Also, in more I have seen 450-500 hp Hayabusa engines even in a mini. That weighs no more then 550 kg.

Here is one on a drag strip and the other on fifth gear video with amazing sound in form of T-Rex







I think given time BMW will be able to make a pretty awesome inline-4 because 1000RR with only 999 cc is already close to hp figures of Hayabusa. Given extra few CC of displacement I am pretty sure they could get up to well over 200hp NA. and if they use a turbo on that engine you could be looking at a 1300cc. engine making well over 240hp and singing to potential 10,500 rpm. I am pretty sure they could tame the engine rpm's and scale them back to 8000 rpm to give us a still fun high revving engine that could be more fuel efficient.


I rather see the technology of lighter engines come into play. So our cars can get lighter because big heavy engines sitting on the front wheels are not ideal driving dynamics.


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^ Right.
BMW isn't immune to the laws of physics.
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      02-01-2011, 09:20 AM   #215
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Like simian was saying, comparing the small displacement sport bike engines to the much larger ones used in cars is an apples to oranges comparison. Also a high-revving NA I4 in a 3/5-series would be even less preferable than this new turbo engine. Do you think an engine like the one in the Honda S2000 would work well in cars like the 3/5-series pushing nearly 4000lbs and with optional AWD systems?
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      02-01-2011, 09:24 AM   #216
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Quote:
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Like simian was saying, comparing the small displacement sport bike engines to the much larger ones used in cars is an apples to oranges comparison. Also a high-revving NA I4 in a 3/5-series would be even less preferable than this new turbo engine. Do you think an engine like the one in the Honda S2000 would work well in cars like the 3/5-series pushing nearly 4000lbs and with optional AWD systems?
I wouldn't touch any modern 4-wheel BMW with an engine that has power characteristics like any of the high-performance Honda 4-cylinders.
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      02-01-2011, 09:48 AM   #217
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Didn't see it in this thread, but was the weight of the engine itself mentioned? I am curious to see how much lighter it is compared to an N52.
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      02-01-2011, 09:52 AM   #218
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Not sure if it's lighter than the N52, but according to a BMW Group press release, it's "...lighter and more compact than a six-cylinder engine of equivalent power." Now, not really sure what they're comparing it to since BMW doesn't have any 240 hp/258 lb-ft 6-cylinders??

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...tem=node__2223
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      02-01-2011, 11:34 AM   #219
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Not sure if it's lighter than the N52, but according to a BMW Group press release, it's "...lighter and more compact than a six-cylinder engine of equivalent power." Now, not really sure what they're comparing it to since BMW doesn't have any 240 hp/258 lb-ft 6-cylinders??

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...tem=node__2223
Well let's analyze the weasel words, shall we?

They're just saying "6-cylinder", not specifically an Inline-6, so it could be the much more common V-6 too. They also didn't say "BMW" 6-cylinder, so we can assume they could be comparing with non-BMW engines. Basically it sounds like they're comparing it with naturally aspirated V-6 engines from companies like MB, Audi, and the Japanese. I'm sure the engine is indeed lighter than the common V-6 engines, but NOT lighter than the N52. Otherwise why not say that it's lighter than the N52?

I'm guessing the N52 is probably the lighter engine. Two more cylinders, but no need for balance shafts, magnesium alloy block vs aluminum, and no turbos and associated plumbing and intercooler.
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      02-01-2011, 11:35 AM   #220
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I'm sure they are just generalizing with the "equivalent power" comment. even if we assume they mean N52, though, it's still a meaningless comparison since they don't specify whether intercooler and such is included. I would tend to call the weight issue a wash. If there is an advantage for one or the other, it probably isn't very much.

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Not sure if it's lighter than the N52, but according to a BMW Group press release, it's "...lighter and more compact than a six-cylinder engine of equivalent power." Now, not really sure what they're comparing it to since BMW doesn't have any 240 hp/258 lb-ft 6-cylinders??

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/press...tem=node__2223
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