BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Stick to Clutch
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-10-2011, 09:07 PM   #67
IFX
Banned
 
Drives: AW e46M/N54
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: South Fla.

Posts: 2,538
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOM3JO View Post
Newer model always better....THE END...


Lol, real enthusiast here..

You're one of those people that probably lease all of your cars just so you can have something "newer" and probably have not the slightest clue about it.
IFX is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-11-2011, 12:21 AM   #68
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by IFX View Post
Lol, real enthusiast here..

You're one of those people that probably lease all of your cars just so you can have something "newer" and probably have not the slightest clue about it.
+1. The older I get the more I think current models aren't very cool. When I go to Porsche meets, I often feel out of place for having a newish Carrera. My car is badly overshadowed by the vintage 911s in the crowd. Cool is raw and simple and more singular in purpose. Very few new cars sub $100K get me very excited these days. Bottom line, if it doesn't have a dipstick, it probably isn't very cool.
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-11-2011, 01:36 AM   #69
JOM3JO
Private First Class
 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: sydney

Posts: 161
iTrader: (0)

E46 was nice but cant compare with e92,If newer model are not better....thats sad....Dont buy BMW....
JOM3JO is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-11-2011, 02:21 AM   #70
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JOM3JO View Post
E46 was nice but cant compare with e92,If newer model are not better....thats sad....Dont buy BMW....
With most every new BMW model, the car typically becomes more luxurious, definitely more modern in terms of safety and electronics, and more refined in creature features. The current M3 took a nose dive in fuel economy and the motor is actually a little disappointing considering its increase in displacement (S54 produces more torque per cc). The next M3 will be FI, breaking the NA rule well established by BMW M. So you can argue that newer is not always better, more enjoyable to own/operate, nor desirable. By my definition of desirable M3s, I'd rate as follows:

E46 M3 GTR (hands down king M3)
E92 M3 GTS
E46 M3 CSL
E30 M3
E92 M3
E46 M3 (still I'd rate higher than the E92 M3 in character/purity of essence)
E36 M3
Any future M3 FI variant
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-11-2011, 03:44 AM   #71
JOM3JO
Private First Class
 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: sydney

Posts: 161
iTrader: (0)

i would only trade in my car with newer model Fx m3 or E92 M3 GTS(if available here).....older model was nice and "classic"..but its getting old on chassis and etc.....
JOM3JO is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-11-2011, 10:38 AM   #72
330CIZHP
Major
 
Drives: BMW 330 CI ZHP
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Calgary, Alberta

Posts: 1,211
iTrader: (0)

I think that is quite an ignorant statement considering the new E9X M3 has a far more usable torque curve and a much superior torque plateau at high rpms than the S54. Overall, the powerband is much wider in S65 compared to S54 spanning 6500 rpm.

From what I know, the S54 engine produced very little usable torque until 4500 - 5000 rpm.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
With most every new BMW model, the car typically becomes more luxurious, definitely more modern in terms of safety and electronics, and more refined in creature features. The current M3 took a nose dive in fuel economy and the motor is actually a little disappointing considering its increase in displacement (S54 produces more torque per cc). The next M3 will be FI, breaking the NA rule well established by BMW M. So you can argue that newer is not always better, more enjoyable to own/operate, nor desirable. By my definition of desirable M3s, I'd rate as follows:

E46 M3 GTR (hands down king M3)
E92 M3 GTS
E46 M3 CSL
E30 M3
E92 M3
E46 M3 (still I'd rate higher than the E92 M3 in character/purity of essence)
E36 M3
Any future M3 FI variant
__________________
""A great sounding, responsive, high-revving, naturally aspirated engine is part of the DNA of a thoroughbred sports car. No two ways about it."

- Lamborghini on turbocharging
330CIZHP is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-11-2011, 03:30 PM   #73
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by 330CIZHP View Post
I think that is quite an ignorant statement considering the new E9X M3 has a far more usable torque curve and a much superior torque plateau at high rpms than the S54. Overall, the powerband is much wider in S65 compared to S54 spanning 6500 rpm.

From what I know, the S54 engine produced very little usable torque until 4500 - 5000 rpm.
Both these engines are stellar. I italicized little for a reason. I'm just saying to produce a motor with .8 liter (20% larger) and 2 cylinder advantage and come out with less torque per cc is a little disappointing, especially considering the EPA differences. The curves are quite similar between the two motors with the S65 having a little more on the very top.

Ultimately each motor produces near identical torque at 2,000 rpms as the same motor does at 8,000 rpms. The S54 peaks at about 12.5% higher at 5,000 rpms vs. 2,000 or 8,000; and the S65 peaks at about 11% higher at 6,000 rpms vs. 2,000 or 8,000. The advantage of the S65 is you have a flatter upper torque range because of the 6,000 peak vs. 5,000. But that also means you have to rev it much more to get to that sweet spot. Again, both motors are stellar. Guess which motor won more international awards?

So my statement is quite not ignorant.
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-15-2011, 02:02 AM   #74
DiscoZ
Second Lieutenant
 
DiscoZ's Avatar
 
Drives: C63 AMG PP, F25 X3
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: T.Dot

Posts: 273
iTrader: (0)

The S54 has higher torque per CC due to its undersquare design which necessitated the iron block and which is why it doesn't like to rev much past 7K. the S54 is stressed from the factory (which doesn't mean it can't take boost, it can very easily). The S65 is a far easier revving motor and revs to its redline much easier than a S54.
__________________
Current: 2012 C63 AMG PP | 2012 F25 X3
Past: 2008 E92 M3 | 2009 E90 335i | 2007 Z4MC | 2002 GTI 1.8T | 2000 Celica GT-S | 1999 328i | 1990 Corrado G60
DiscoZ is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-15-2011, 04:33 AM   #75
Jive
First Lieutenant
 
Jive's Avatar
 
Drives: my gf crazy
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Francisco, CA

Posts: 346
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
Both these engines are stellar. I italicized little for a reason. I'm just saying to produce a motor with .8 liter (20% larger) and 2 cylinder advantage and come out with less torque per cc is a little disappointing, especially considering the EPA differences. The curves are quite similar between the two motors with the S65 having a little more on the very top.

Ultimately each motor produces near identical torque at 2,000 rpms as the same motor does at 8,000 rpms. The S54 peaks at about 12.5% higher at 5,000 rpms vs. 2,000 or 8,000; and the S65 peaks at about 11% higher at 6,000 rpms vs. 2,000 or 8,000. The advantage of the S65 is you have a flatter upper torque range because of the 6,000 peak vs. 5,000. But that also means you have to rev it much more to get to that sweet spot. Again, both motors are stellar. Guess which motor won more international awards?

So my statement is quite not ignorant.
The difference (and less torque per cc in S65) is due to the engine design.

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=473681 (Scroll down for link)

Give that a read if you missed it.
Jive is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-15-2011, 07:56 AM   #76
taYab
Captain
 
taYab's Avatar
 
Drives: '06 E60 '09 E89 '14 F25
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Vancouver

Posts: 719
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
Newer model less rewarding to drive. I'd be amazed if anyone here would keep their "new" M3 if BMW would give them a perfect E30 M3.
Agree. Higher spec is not always good thing.
__________________
2006 E60 Gone!
2009 E89 Gone!
2014 F25 !!
taYab is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-15-2011, 12:43 PM   #77
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
I said just that in a previous post. After 7K it falls flat whereas the S65 pulls harder and harder to 8400.
Your choice of words is extremely poor and utterly misleading, and simply inaccurate. Falls flat is not accurate and there is no data to support that statement. The S54 can rev to 8400 and beyond just like the S65. Both engines are still producing very usable power at redline which is why it's optimum to shift both at redline for maximum acceleration. Falls flat would be a great description for a N54, not S54. As they say, there's no replacement for displacement. You seem hellbent to compare the motors as if they're equal in displacement. Considering the S54 can nearly hold its own while 20% down on displacement is just an indicator of how fantastic that motor is. BMW factory racing S54 motors produce 400 hp in the exact configuration, mainly by raising the rev limit and allowing it to breathe better.

I can only imagine your basing your motor opinion on the car's overall acceleration. In that case, you've failed. Force determines acceleration, not hp or torque. Force is the motor's wheel torque plus the multiplication affect of all gearing (individual gearbox gear ratios, rear diff ratio, and rear wheel circumference). The E92 M3 is geared a little shorter than the E46 M3, thus has an advantage of more multiplied torque. BMW simply geared the E46 M3 too tall and I'm sure they did that to keep fuel economy decent, which it is comparatively. Change the final gear in a E46 M3 to one similar in ratio to the E92 M3 (6MT) and you've made up most the acceleration difference. Raise the rev limit to 8400 and you've made up some more. But being 20% down on displacement, you'll never make that up completely.

It would be great if you would base your inputs on substance, not uneducated opinion.
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-15-2011, 01:20 PM   #78
bruce.augenstein@comcast.
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: Legacy GT - 13.704@99.39
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Manheim, PA

Posts: 1,866
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscoZ View Post
The S54 has higher torque per CC due to its undersquare design which necessitated the iron block and which is why it doesn't like to rev much past 7K. the S54 is stressed from the factory (which doesn't mean it can't take boost, it can very easily). The S65 is a far easier revving motor and revs to its redline much easier than a S54.
Undersquare design has nothing to do with torque per cc, as explained here.

Our E46 really enjoyed running to red line. 7K was happily approached and passed in any of the lower gears, in fact.

I admit that the S65 is even happier up there, but power to weight rules, and the E9X does much better than the E46 in that regard.

My two bits about the fantastic torque curve of the S65 is intake and exhaust tuning.

From a cursory inspection, it appears that the exhaust system is opitmized for max scavenging at relatively low rpm. This is what accounts for the 3900 rpm torque peak.

The intake, on the other hand, is optimized for max "packing" of the intake charge at high rpm. Thus, the 8300 rpm power.

Most engines tend to have intake and exhaust tuned for max efficiency in a similar rpm range. This makes for more torque per cc or ci, but over a narrower range.

The difference in natural resonance tuning between intake and exhaust on the S65 is what accounts for both the astoundingly broad torque curve and the relatively low max torque value.

Bruce
bruce.augenstein@comcast. is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-15-2011, 05:28 PM   #79
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
And you seem hellbent on trying to prove the s54 is a better motor. I guess overeggageration and sarcasm is lost on you completely, and in that case youve failed miserably.
I had a fully built 4.10 motorsport diff on one of my e46 m3s...and while it made up a big differnce in the driveability it still didnt feel as strong to me.
Since you say theres no replacement for displacement, have you ever driven a GT3? The 3.6 or 3.8 would beg to differ since they IMO pull harder than the s65 does (or any bmw m moto ive driven and mostly anything else you could compare them to), both being down on displacement and have a better top end as well and with a 3.44 rear end.
Never said it [S54] was better. Just don't like inane comments which are far from fact. As for your Porsche comparison to the E92 M3, there is far more to consider. Aerodynamic affect and drivability/grip makes an appreciable difference in acceleration. And you can't just compare the rear end ratio. You have to consider all the gearing and the entire power curve, and even how fast the motor builds power. Look at the lower rev limits of the flat 6. What the S65 has working against it for normal streetability is the vey high peak torque at 6,000 rpms. Perfect when you're revving it freely in every gear. Not so great for normal operation. As for rear end ratios for the E46 M3, the 3.91 is the right choice. 4.10 is too short and kills driveability and shortens the legs too much as well. Sometimes more is less.

3 minutes typing time!
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-15-2011, 11:45 PM   #80
graider
Colonel
 
graider's Avatar
 
Drives: py/kiwi e46 m3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: toronto

Posts: 2,408
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
And you seem hellbent on trying to prove the s54 is a better motor. I guess overeggageration and sarcasm is lost on you completely, and in that case youve failed miserably.
I had a fully built 4.10 motorsport diff on one of my e46 m3s...and while it made up a big differnce in the driveability it still didnt feel as strong to me.
Since you say theres no replacement for displacement, have you ever driven a GT3? The 3.6 or 3.8 would beg to differ since they IMO pull harder than the s65 does (or any bmw m moto ive driven and mostly anything else you could compare them to), both being down on displacement and have a better top end as well and with a 3.44 rear end.
I think most of that has to do with the weight. 400lbs less on the gt3 sure make a big different.
graider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 01:52 PM   #81
B R A N D X
Second Lieutenant
 
B R A N D X's Avatar
 
Drives: Fast Cars!
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Raleigh, NC

Posts: 213
iTrader: (0)

After reading this entire thread and finding the pissing match more than a bit monotonous I thought I'd offer up another useless *opinion*:

Enjoyed both of my E46 M3's.........LOVE my E90 M3. Does anyone who favors the E46 really care which generation I like best? I hope not. It only matter what *you* like best and frankly, should only really matter to you and to no one else.

I sold an '09 Carrera S (after owning two 997.2 generations as well as a 2007 997.1) to help fund my new M3 because I enjoy the E90 more than the Carrera S even though I definitely did appreciate and enjoy my brief, 2 year, ownership of the 997.2.

Older versus newer:

One of the main reasons I sold my 997.2 was because after spending quite a bit of time behind the wheel of my buddy's '97 993 Carrera S I'd much rather own the E90 M3 while looking for a clean, low mileage 993S in the $45K range to purchase as a complement to my M3.

For me, at least, Newer BMW is better, 2 generation old (soon to be 3 generations) Porsche is better simply because it is more fun to drive, sounds better and demands more attention to keep from discovering that wonderful Porsche trait of "The Pendulum Effect"

Whatever.........drive what you like and don't feel the need to explain or justify to anyone!!!

Case in point: I could give a shite about folks who think I must be crazy to have sold an '09 997.2S in favor of a 2011 E90 M3 ZCP. I'm the one who paid for it, drives it and I now own the car I prefer.

Other than driving the car that *you* like best, the rest is just noise for cryin' out loud.

OP........You'll get spanked by the E9X in your E46, but who cares? You have a great car and hopefully you enjoy it!

I know I'm new here, but come on guys.......really (?).......Stating hard data can be informative, but anything beyond that is just working way too hard to try and prove who knows the most.
__________________
-Stu-
2011 E90 ///M3 DCT ZCP | Space Gray | Silver Novillo |
2011 F10 550i | Space Gray | Oyster & Black Nappa | ///M Sport | 8 Spd Auto
"A toast then: To the BMW M3, the greatest all-around car in the world."
-Arthur St. Antoine, Motor Trend Magazine's Editor at Large

Last edited by B R A N D X; 01-22-2011 at 09:14 PM.
B R A N D X is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-22-2011, 10:11 PM   #82
JOM3JO
Private First Class
 
Drives: e92 m3
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: sydney

Posts: 161
iTrader: (0)

M3 GTR performance must be crazy and fast track tool....but...dont know..still looks old for me...still choose e92 m3 over it...
JOM3JO is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-23-2011, 09:00 AM   #83
M3 Pilot
First Lieutenant
 
Drives: 13' E92 M3 Comp Pack
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Australia

Posts: 353
iTrader: (0)

I currently own both the E46 and E92 M3.

You really can't discount either car. The added displacement from the S65 does help the top end a fair bit

But neither can you knock S54 off the shelf simply for having 2 less cylinders and 800cc lesser in capacity, 343bhp is a respectable figure.

One thing you guys need to realiseis that the S54 was a great engine for its time (2000-2006?) and still is today. Technology can only move forward, not backwards. Till today, only a bunchful of NA engines can squeeze 343bhp from a 6 pot, 3.2L.

Even today, I can't pick 1 engine over the other. Both S54 and S65 are made and suited for their respective cars. I wouldn't want a S65 in the E46 or vice versa.
M3 Pilot is offline   Australia
0
Reply With Quote
      02-23-2011, 01:44 PM   #84
Sedan_Clan
California Highway Patrolling
 
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
 
Drives: '14 335i(prev.IB,AW M3's & X5)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex!

Posts: 11,124
iTrader: (25)

Do any of you have skidpad numbers for the E92 and E46 M3's?

edit:

Nevermind, I got them!

Last edited by Sedan_Clan; 02-25-2011 at 01:07 PM.
Sedan_Clan is offline   Brazil
0
Reply With Quote
      02-27-2011, 01:45 PM   #85
skim
Lieutenant
 
Drives: 07 Z4MC
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: SF Bay Area, CA

Posts: 556
iTrader: (0)

i think really the perfect combo is what i have..
e9x m3 and e86 m (i so prefer the coupe version)
__________________
Future mod consideration: exhaust, pulley
otherwise, very happy with how the m3 was born
skim is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-04-2011, 09:15 PM   #86
AngelinIsRich08
Banned
 
Drives: '11 X5M, '09 CTS
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 709
iTrader: (0)

The E9X M3 to the E46 M3
AngelinIsRich08 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-06-2011, 02:10 AM   #87
agentm
Private
 
agentm's Avatar
 
Drives: M3, X3
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everywhere

Posts: 96
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelinIsRich08 View Post
The E9X M3 to the E46 M3
Childish comment. Both M are very nice car. I drove every model at the dealership. I do wish the e9x M feel a little more raw. I can't wait for the next generation M3. I have a feeling what they are going to do.
__________________
2004 M3 Silver Gray / CSL Header and Cats / RE El Diablo Exhaust / Hotchkis Swaybar / KW v2 / RD Sport Rims 19' / Falken FK-452 tires / Reinforcement Kit / Smoke Corner / 50% Tinted / Painted Shadow Grille / Umnitza Halo light / Hanman Lip / CF Diffusor / Autosolution SSK 30% / Aluminum Foot Pedals / AA Shift knob / AA Sport Fan Clutch / 3.91 Diff
Active Auto HKS Gen 6 Level 1.5 S/C
agentm is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-06-2011, 02:16 PM   #88
Sedan_Clan
California Highway Patrolling
 
Sedan_Clan's Avatar
 
Drives: '14 335i(prev.IB,AW M3's & X5)
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: On 2 wheels clipping an apex!

Posts: 11,124
iTrader: (25)

Quote:
Originally Posted by agentm View Post
Childish comment. Both M are very nice car. I drove every model at the dealership. I do wish the e9x M feel a little more raw. I can't wait for the next generation M3. I have a feeling what they are going to do.
....And what is it that you think they are going to do? If you think the new ///M will "feel" any more raw than the current car, you'll likely be disappointed. The E9X feels less raw because it is a more refined car; the E46 emphasizes drama.
Sedan_Clan is offline   Brazil
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:22 PM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST