BMW M3 Forum (E90 E92)

BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Go Back   M3Post - BMW M3 Forum > M3 (E90 / E92 / E93) > M3 vs....
 
Racewerkz Engineering
Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-27-2010, 08:34 PM   #23
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
I thought the e46 m3 was incredibly boring to drive unless I was thrashing/beating on it.

The s65 makes the e92 m3 much more exciting when on it, and while at low speeds I also find it to be a bit on the boring side, i dont find it to be quite as mundane as the e46 m3 was.
That's a BMW trait ... to make the car tame and livable at city speeds, yet a beast at speeds well over double digits. My Z4 M Coupe was definitely more entertaining at lower speeds just due to the smaller nature of the car and cockpit, plus the fact you sit just forward of the rear wheels so you really feel the car fighting for grip under hard acceleration. You'll have to shop elsewhere of BMW if you want something of a brute at any speed.

Personally I like something that makes you work "harder" for the reward. Call it more involvement. The older I get, the more I like older cars. Cars are getting too easy to drive.
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      12-27-2010, 09:18 PM   #24
TailHappyM3
Lieutenant
 
Drives: M3
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Calgary

Posts: 534
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
That's a BMW trait ... to make the car tame and livable at city speeds, yet a beast at speeds well over double digits. My Z4 M Coupe was definitely more entertaining at lower speeds just due to the smaller nature of the car and cockpit, plus the fact you sit just forward of the rear wheels so you really feel the car fighting for grip under hard acceleration. You'll have to shop elsewhere of BMW if you want something of a brute at any speed.

Personally I like something that makes you work "harder" for the reward. Call it more involvement. The older I get, the more I like older cars. Cars are getting too easy to drive.
Amen to that! My 996 GT3 was all about that....one of the most potentially punishing yet rewarding driving experiences of any car in automotive history. However, some folks just want an everyday GT car that does everything well and there is no better than the M3 no matter what generation.
TailHappyM3 is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      01-01-2011, 10:20 PM   #25
P-TownM3
///Mmmmm
 
P-TownM3's Avatar
 
Drives: '15 SSII F80 M3
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Bay Area, California

Posts: 637
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LestAs///M3 View Post
Of course there is a horsepower difference but the E92 have 8 cylinders so it's much heavier..,

Who will WIN?
e46 M3 is pretty much dead even with a stock 335i...so that should answer your question.
P-TownM3 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-01-2011, 10:35 PM   #26
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-TownM3 View Post
e46 M3 is pretty much dead even with a stock 335i...so that should answer your question.
Well for a guy who lived in Germany from 2004 to 2009 I'd argue that point (and win). The N54 is a dog of a motor (comparatively) at high rpms and high speeds. I drove a 135i for 4,000 miles (100% in Germany) so I know quite a bit about that motor. And the 135i is quicker than the 335i. Neither is great at high speeds. The E46 M3 does quite well at high speeds. How much time have you spent north of 150 mph in any of these cars?
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 03:27 AM   #27
BOOstJunkee
Private First Class
 
Drives: Turbo S54 & N54 awd
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Jersey

Posts: 114
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by P-TownM3 View Post
e46 M3 is pretty much dead even with a stock 335i...so that should answer your question.
I have yet to come across one stock 335 that can match my stock e46 m3. I definitely think the 335 in stock form is given too much credit compare to an m3. I honestly would love to come across an e9x m3 becuase I am very curious as to just how much faster it really is.
BOOstJunkee is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 07:53 AM   #28
FruitCake
Banned
 
Drives: '10 E92 M3
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Los Angeles

Posts: 1,680
iTrader: (19)

All i can say is every day I love the E92, but on the track I miss my E46
FruitCake is offline   Taiwan
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 10:43 AM   #29
graider
Colonel
 
graider's Avatar
 
Drives: py/kiwi e46 m3
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: toronto

Posts: 2,408
iTrader: (0)

i would take the e92 m3 over the e46 m3 anyday.
graider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 11:10 AM   #30
ss134
Brigadier General
 
ss134's Avatar
 
Drives: ...a hard bargain...
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Germany/UK

Posts: 3,728
iTrader: (1)

For the guys who are curious about the difference in straight line speed between e9XM3 and E46 M3 - here is a roll on from 50kph to 250kph between a stock E92 M3 and an E46 M3 CSL which is 110kg (240 Lb ) lighter than a regular E46 M3 and has 360 bhp as standard.

__________________
2014 AW F80 M3 DCT
2011 AW E90 M3 DCT - Sold
2010 JZB E90 M3 DCT - Sold
2009 6MT E90 LCI 335i M -Sport - Sold
ss134 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 01:15 PM   #31
Trier Germany
Banned
 
Drives: 2009 E-90 M3 space gray
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deutschland KreisTrier auf Autobahn 64 & Tucson AZ

Posts: 1,085
iTrader: (1)

The E-46 CSL is 15 seconds quicker around the Nordschleife than a stock E-92 M3.
Trier Germany is offline   Luxembourg
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 01:24 PM   #32
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss134 View Post
For the guys who are curious about the difference in straight line speed between e9XM3 and E46 M3 - here is a roll on from 50kph to 250kph between a stock E92 M3 and an E46 M3 CSL which is 110kg (240 Lb ) lighter than a regular E46 M3 and has 360 bhp as standard.

What rear diff ratio is in the CSL?
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 01:31 PM   #33
JonnyM3
Lieutenant
 
JonnyM3's Avatar
 
Drives: Moderately Quick
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: New York

Posts: 506
iTrader: (1)

CSL should be compared to GTS IMO, but even then it's apples to oranges. I'd also love to see a ZCP DCT M3 run the ring now, I'm sure the time would be noticeably quicker.
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...s_m_sport.html
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...mw_m3_e92.html
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...mw_m3_e92.html
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...mw_m3_gts.html
JonnyM3 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 04:20 PM   #34
ss134
Brigadier General
 
ss134's Avatar
 
Drives: ...a hard bargain...
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Germany/UK

Posts: 3,728
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
What rear diff ratio is in the CSL?
Same as a regluar M3 3.62:1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudiS5 View Post
CSL should be compared to GTS IMO, but even then it's apples to oranges. I'd also love to see a ZCP DCT M3 run the ring now, I'm sure the time would be noticeably quicker.
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...s_m_sport.html
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...mw_m3_e92.html
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...mw_m3_e92.html
http://fastestlaps.com/comparisons/b...mw_m3_gts.html
I wasn't comparing the CSL - just giving those members who were unsure as to how much faster in a straight line the E9X M3 is compared to an E46 M3 a reference point.

I dont think a ZCP M3 will be noticeably faster around the ring than a regular M3 - the M3 GTS with all of its modifications (and price) is only 2 seconds faster around the ring than the old CSL.
__________________
2014 AW F80 M3 DCT
2011 AW E90 M3 DCT - Sold
2010 JZB E90 M3 DCT - Sold
2009 6MT E90 LCI 335i M -Sport - Sold

Last edited by ss134; 01-02-2011 at 04:42 PM.
ss134 is offline   United Kingdom
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 05:26 PM   #35
sensi09
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: .
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: socal

Posts: 1,766
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trier Germany View Post
The E-46 CSL is 15 seconds quicker around the Nordschleife than a stock E-92 M3.
I remember reading the discussions at the time and many noted the performance of the CSL vs a regular e46 M3 was due to tires.

However, if the CSL was equipped with pilot sport cup+, the + being the key, they offer similar dry grip as PS2s as noted by C&D track times. The difference being the sport cup+ was more consistent and held up to heat better.

edit: guess I didn't read the last post before posting.
sensi09 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 06:45 PM   #36
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss134 View Post
Same as a regluar M3 3.62:1.
That explains a lot of the difference in acceleration. BMW smartly made some changes to the E92 M3 to ensure it reached the next level of performance. One being gearing. The E46 M3/Z4 M were geared too tall from the factory. But I don't complain when I'm putting gas in mine...lol. The car really should have come with the 3.91. It's the perfect compromise between performance and economy. What hampers the E46 M3 (non CSL) more than anything is its brakes. Easily rectified though.
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 06:47 PM   #37
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
1) that time was done on true Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires. Not the Cup+, but the real deal Cup tires.
2) that time is an anomaly and has never been replicated. True time for the e46 m3 csl would be right about the same time as the e92 m3.
Says you. It's in the books. That's all that counts. Those tires aren't going to make as much difference as you think. They aren't racing slicks designed for one heat cycle. Give it a rest.
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 10:51 PM   #38
Radiation Joe
Veni Vidi Vici
 
Radiation Joe's Avatar
 
Drives: '11 JB/BBe-6sp-e90
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Macungie PA

Posts: 2,749
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 e90 M3-Sold  [4.25]
2003 RS6 - Sold  [0.00]
2009 e90 M3 - Gone  [0.00]
2003 M3 SOLD  [0.00]
old 2002  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider View Post
Exactly. I appreciate cars based on character and fun to drive, which doesn't always equate to all out performance.

The original question of this thread is really no brainer. Of course the V8 powered E9X M3 is the quicker car. But BMW did compromise the E46 M3 in North America, so it's not the most level of playing fields comparatively to elsewhere. Wish BMW would quit doing such retarded things in this market.
I don't know where you get your information, but the basic e46 M3 is the same everywhere. The Europeans got a slightly more torquey exhaust, that many people retrofit here (me for one). The European brake rotors were slightly better than the US versions but were inferior compared to Performance Friction stock replacements. So I don't see where you are coming from with the US version being dumbed down. I believe the major shortcoming of the e46 was it's front suspension. The cars have a mid-corner push that can't be fixed without geometry changes. The e9x cars are miles ahead in that department.

Don't get me wrong. I like the e46 M3 better than the e9x series. But it's because of the total driving experience and not the performance.
__________________

Dinan compliment of stuff plus PF rotors and RG63s. Enough for now.
Why, yes. I am an abrasive bastard.
Radiation Joe is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 11:45 PM   #39
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiation Joe View Post
I don't know where you get your information, but the basic e46 M3 is the same everywhere. The Europeans got a slightly more torquey exhaust, that many people retrofit here (me for one). The European brake rotors were slightly better than the US versions but were inferior compared to Performance Friction stock replacements. So I don't see where you are coming from with the US version being dumbed down. I believe the major shortcoming of the e46 was it's front suspension. The cars have a mid-corner push that can't be fixed without geometry changes. The e9x cars are miles ahead in that department.

Don't get me wrong. I like the e46 M3 better than the e9x series. But it's because of the total driving experience and not the performance.
Never said it is night vs. day. I thought my words were chosen carefully enough to express a marginal difference. You actually have the full Euro exhaust system ($4000)? Or did you just source a eBay header? The whole Euro system/software is worth 17 lb-ft at peak. That's nothing to snicker at. US SMG versions got a far less capable SMG software and LC. It is what it is. No one is debating the evolution of the E9X M3. I would hope it performs better considering the amount of gas it burns. It's also a decade newer in development. What's your point?

I'd still take a E30 M3 over them all. With each subsequent 3er, they get bigger and heavier and less fun to drive (although I still prefer the E46 M3 to the E36 M3). I guess you'd argue the US version E36 M3 is just as good as the Euro version too?
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-02-2011, 11:56 PM   #40
Dave07997S
Colonel
 
Drives: 2013 BMW M3 ZCP Coupe
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Playa del Rey, CA

Posts: 2,516
iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
My 2004 e46 m3 had the full Supersprint race exhaust. Headers, race cats, x pipe and race exhaust (all $~7K of it) and it def made a difference. Although, I dont have experience with the euro system, but just that fact that the cats were moved downstream prbably helped a lot. Im sure it wouldnt be near the effect the SS system had though.
I had the same exhaust on my E46 M3, it was worth 25 rwhp on the car. My car made 277rwhp stock, than it made 302rwhp with just the SS headers, race cats and xpipe no resonator but with Borla cans. What seemed to be mainly improved was low end torque along with the midrange. The car didn't even have software.


Here's the youtube of my old E46 M3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xf8gxlCaCU

I didn't want to really get involved with the E46 vs. E92 M3...but the E46 did do somethings better than the E92. I think the steering was better, especially at low speeds but the V8 in the E92 M3 is really a jem. The lighter E46 M3 did seem more tossble than the E92 M3 and it seemed to push less as well. Than again I remember the car with the Eibach Prokit springs and sways along with the larger RAC Monolite RG4s along with the wider rubber, I'm sure that had alot to do with it.


Dave
__________________
2013 M3 Coupe-MR/BLK ZCP, ACM test pipes, BPM Stg2 dev. tune and Megan catback, AFE Stg2. with C/F elbow
Previous rides: 2011 M3 Coupe-MR/Blk
2007 Porsche 997C2S Speed Yellow/Blk sport seats
2004 BMW M3 Imola/Blk

Last edited by Dave07997S; 01-03-2011 at 12:02 AM.
Dave07997S is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-03-2011, 12:17 AM   #41
sensi09
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Drives: .
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: socal

Posts: 1,766
iTrader: (1)

A SS race with headers must of been god awfully loud. The drone on the SS race alone was already too much for me. If I ever got headers, I was planning on switching to something more quiet.

Most of the gains were from the headers and race cats if I recall. The exhaust and x-pipe didn't do much.
sensi09 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-03-2011, 12:41 AM   #42
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave07997S View Post
IHere's the youtube of my old E46 M3.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xf8gxlCaCU
Sounded good. I can only imagine how good that would sound with my top down in a tunnel! Don't tell anyone, but the E46 M3 is the world's best daily driver for fun per dollar per mile.

Want to see something sweet...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsc...#ht_534wt_1167

Check out the engine bay. Screw current modern technology!
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-03-2011, 10:06 PM   #43
MVF4Rrider
PCA, BMWCCA
 
MVF4Rrider's Avatar
 
Drives: 997S, MV Agusta F4, E46 M3
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Las Vegas NV

Posts: 2,060
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
...the s65 is just such a beast, especially doesnt have that falling flat the s54 did at 7K+ rpms.
The S54 loses 3 less lb-ft of torque than the S65 in the last 1,000 rpms. Perhaps your butt dyno needs calibrating?
__________________
'08 Carrera S 6MT Guards Red/Black ext leather, Carbon fiber pkg, sport exh, sport chrono +, PASM, Nav, Bose, 19" forged turbos, red tranny tunnel
'07 MV Agusta F4 1000 R 1+1, Corse Red/Silver, RG3 race pipes and factory race ECU
MVF4Rrider is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      01-03-2011, 10:33 PM   #44
BOOstJunkee
Private First Class
 
Drives: Turbo S54 & N54 awd
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Jersey

Posts: 114
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ss134 View Post
For the guys who are curious about the difference in straight line speed between e9XM3 and E46 M3 - here is a roll on from 50kph to 250kph between a stock E92 M3 and an E46 M3 CSL which is 110kg (240 Lb ) lighter than a regular E46 M3 and has 360 bhp as standard.

the csl had a passenger!!!!
BOOstJunkee is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:04 AM.




m3post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST