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      02-19-2007, 04:41 AM   #89
snawaz
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Originally Posted by youyou View Post
I just jumped into this Iran thread and honestly i'm not gonna voice my opinion here because if I do all hell will break loose, especially for snawaz!!
One thing I can say though is that most of the Iranian people hate their government. Especially that NutJob Mahmoud Ahmadinejad .
I am jewish and have many Iranian Persian friends which i love deeply. They are great people. And most of them don't have anything against jews.
But their government... Damnnnnnn I can write a book about how messed up they are.
You are perfectly right, muslims have nothing against Jews, just the Zionists, who have made the middle-east a living hell for more than 50 years now.

You always make this into a Jew thing, whereas you full well know this a zionist thing.

For those who don't know what a zionist, or zionism is, here is a definition:
Zionism-a worldwide movement, originating in the 19th century, that sought to establish and develop a Jewish nation in Palestine. Since 1948 its function has been to support the state of Israel.
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      02-19-2007, 09:42 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by snawaz View Post
You are perfectly right, muslims have nothing against Jews, just the Zionists, who have made the middle-east a living hell for more than 50 years now.

You always make this into a Jew thing, whereas you full well know this a zionist thing.

For those who don't know what a zionist, or zionism is, here is a definition:
Zionism-a worldwide movement, originating in the 19th century, that sought to establish and develop a Jewish nation in Palestine. Since 1948 its function has been to support the state of Israel.
Do you deny that the current State of Israel exists in the same area as the ancient Kingdom of Israel?

Do you deny that this is the land the Bible says God gave to the Jews?

Do you deny that there have been Jews living in this land for thousands of years?

Clearly there were Jews in this land before there were Muslims.
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      02-19-2007, 10:11 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Do you deny that the current State of Israel exists in the same area as the ancient Kingdom of Israel?

Do you deny that this is the land the Bible says God gave to the Jews?

Do you deny that there have been Jews living in this land for thousands of years?

Clearly there were Jews in this land before there were Muslims.
Nice logic! But a bit too simplistic since it can be used against us on the American Continent.



Do you deny that the current USA exists in the same area as the ancient territory of the native American people?

Do you deny that this is the land nature gave to the native American people?

Do you deny that there have been native Americans living in this land for thousands of years?

Clearly there were native Americans in this land before there were non-native Americans.



Be careful with your arguments. I do not deny Israel's right to exist as I do not deny Palestine's right to exist. We live in the 21st century, can't we find a way to all get allong?
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      02-19-2007, 10:18 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Do you deny that the current State of Israel exists in the same area as the ancient Kingdom of Israel?

Do you deny that this is the land the Bible says God gave to the Jews?

Do you deny that there have been Jews living in this land for thousands of years?

Clearly there were Jews in this land before there were Muslims.
Respectly sir, I agree with all the points you raised. In particular I agree that God gave the land to the Jews, however, God made it clear to the Jews that they would be exiled from the land if they did not follow his way, and so it came to pass.

You are also right that Jews were there before Muslims, but most of the Jews have reverted to Islam and become muslims (except the estimated 14 million or so Jews that are left at this moment in time).
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      02-19-2007, 10:38 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by ElCapitan View Post
Nice logic! But a bit too simplistic since it can be used against us on the American Continent.



Do you deny that the current USA exists in the same area as the ancient territory of the native American people?

Do you deny that this is the land nature gave to the native American people?

Do you deny that there have been native Americans living in this land for thousands of years?

Clearly there were native Americans in this land before there were non-native Americans.



Be careful with your arguments. I do not deny Israel's right to exist as I do not deny Palestine's right to exist. We live in the 21st century, can't we find a way to all get allong?
I was not making an argument, I was asking questions in relation to snawaz's implication that Zionism is illegitimate because it attempted to establish a Jewish state in the region.

The answer to your can't we all get along question is clearly "No" The Palestinians have rejected offers that do not include the destruction of Israel.
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      02-19-2007, 10:39 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by snawaz View Post
Respectly sir, I agree with all the points you raised. In particular I agree that God gave the land to the Jews, however, God made it clear to the Jews that they would be exiled from the land if they did not follow his way, and so it came to pass.

You are also right that Jews were there before Muslims, but most of the Jews have reverted to Islam and become muslims (except the estimated 14 million or so Jews that are left at this moment in time).
Yes, God did exile them from the land a few times but they came back. They are back now, why deny to them that which God gave them.
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      02-19-2007, 11:03 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
I was not making an argument, I was asking questions in relation to snawaz's implication that Zionism is illegitimate because it attempted to establish a Jewish state in the region.

The answer to your can't we all get along question is clearly "No" The Palestinians have rejected offers that do not include the destruction of Israel.
I would like to see how would react if someone attempted to establish a home for themselves in your backyard, literally speaking! Because that is what the zionists have essentially done. Would you think this was legitimate, I think not!
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      02-19-2007, 11:35 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by snawaz View Post
I would like to see how would react if someone attempted to establish a home for themselves in your backyard, literally speaking! Because that is what the zionists have essentially done. Would you think this was legitimate, I think not!
If you accept that there have been Jews in the area for thousands of years, why do you not accept the idea that they are entitled to govern themselves as well?

The current State of Israel takes up less than 20% of what was the British Mandate of Palestine, quite close to the percentage of Jews in the population of the mandate. It would have been significantly less if the Arabs had accepted the UN partition plan instead of attacking the Jews.
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      02-19-2007, 01:22 PM   #97
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If you believe that George W. Bush wants to wipe Iraq, Iran, or Korea off the face of the Earth, answer me one question - Why are they still here?

There is absolutely NOTHING stopping the President from doing just that.
I have to disagree. We are a democracy, if we destroyed a whole nation we would committ same atrocities that we are trying to prevent. The rest of the world is stopping the President. Look what happened to Hitler, the more Germany expanded the more the rest of the world got involved.
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      02-19-2007, 01:27 PM   #98
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hating your own country is wrong...
Hating your own government is your choice (at least it should be in a true democracy)
Depends on how your country treated you...have you ever been abducted and forced to work against your will?...have you ever been infected with a disease an denied the cure just to see the affects?...People have different perspectives on thier view of their own country
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      02-19-2007, 01:40 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
If you accept that there have been Jews in the area for thousands of years, why do you not accept the idea that they are entitled to govern themselves as well?

The current State of Israel takes up less than 20% of what was the British Mandate of Palestine, quite close to the percentage of Jews in the population of the mandate. It would have been significantly less if the Arabs had accepted the UN partition plan instead of attacking the Jews.
Its easy being generous with other peoples property/land. Why dont you let them govern themselves in one of your 52 states. I'm sure another 8 millions Jews on top of the 6 million you already have in your country wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Why cant you accept that the zionists are a big thorn in the muslims' side, and this will never go away until the islamic state is re-established.

History has taught us that power never lasts with one set of people for too long. The israeli zionists are the strongest force in the world at this moment and that is a fact we have to accept for now. But you will find that the muslims are not gonna lie down like the native americans did when the west came with their invading forces.
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      02-19-2007, 02:10 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by snawaz View Post
Its easy being generous with other peoples property/land. Why dont you let them govern themselves in one of your 52 states. I'm sure another 8 millions Jews on top of the 6 million you already have in your country wouldn't be such a bad thing.

Why cant you accept that the zionists are a big thorn in the muslims' side, and this will never go away until the islamic state is re-established.

History has taught us that power never lasts with one set of people for too long. The israeli zionists are the strongest force in the world at this moment and that is a fact we have to accept for now. But you will find that the muslims are not gonna lie down like the native americans did when the west came with their invading forces.
It was not anyone else's land. No one claimed sovereignty over it since the Ottoman Empire. There were two options as far as I can tell for how to deal with the issue after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, allow a world body to try to mediate the issue and develop a compromise or let the two sides fight it out. The first was tried but rejected by the Arabs and the second was what was left, in that the Arabs lost.

Why is the re-establishment of an Islamic state any more legitimate than the established Jewish state? Is Judaism inferior to Islam?
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      02-19-2007, 03:16 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
It was not anyone else's land. No one claimed sovereignty over it since the Ottoman Empire. There were two options as far as I can tell for how to deal with the issue after the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire, allow a world body to try to mediate the issue and develop a compromise or let the two sides fight it out. The first was tried but rejected by the Arabs and the second was what was left, in that the Arabs lost.

Why is the re-establishment of an Islamic state any more legitimate than the established Jewish state? Is Judaism inferior to Islam?
Because my friend the re-establishment of the Islamic state is God's will, as has been prophesised by our prophet Muhammed(peace be upon him).

As you are fully aware we muslims believe in the prophet Abraham and Moses as do you. You will also be aware that we believe the prophet Muhammed was the last prophet to be sent down by God. As Christians believe with the coming of the Christ Christianity superseded Judaism, so Muslims believe Islam superseded both Judaism and Christianity with the coming of the prophet Muhammed.
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      02-19-2007, 03:39 PM   #102
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Because my friend the re-establishment of the Islamic state is God's will, as has been prophesised by our prophet Muhammed(peace be upon him).

As you are fully aware we muslims believe in the prophet Abraham and Moses as do you. You will also be aware that we believe the prophet Muhammed was the last prophet to be sent down by God. As Christians believe with the coming of the Christ Christianity superseded Judaism, so Muslims believe Islam superseded both Judaism and Christianity with the coming of the prophet Muhammed.
So you believe you are entitled to impose your beliefs on others?

Jews and Christians reject the prophecies of Muhammed, should they just lie down and accept it? Or are they entitled to their beliefs as much as you are?
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      02-19-2007, 04:06 PM   #103
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So you believe you are entitled to impose your beliefs on others?

Jews and Christians reject the prophecies of Muhammed, should they just lie down and accept it? Or are they entitled to their beliefs as much as you are?
You are 100% entitled to your belief as are we. When the Jews and Christians lived under the Islamic rule they were allows total religious freedom as you full well know, so dont twist things. I guess you have to twist things to keep up lies like the Zionist state of Israel.

You are correct, I have no right to impose my beliefs on others. Again propaganda tactics on your part, taking things out of context and answering things in a convoluted way. Always looking for easy shots. The zionist israeli way.
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      02-19-2007, 05:33 PM   #104
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You are 100% entitled to your belief as are we. When the Jews and Christians lived under the Islamic rule they were allows total religious freedom as you full well know, so dont twist things. I guess you have to twist things to keep up lies like the Zionist state of Israel.
Is it legal to conduct a Christian or Jewish worship service in Saudi Arabia today?

Can a Jew be a citizen of Saudi Arabia?

Can a Jew be a citizen of Jordan?

Is it legal to conduct a Muslim worship service in Israel?

Can a Muslim be a citizen of Israel?

Quote:
You are correct, I have no right to impose my beliefs on others. Again propaganda tactics on your part, taking things out of context and answering things in a convoluted way. Always looking for easy shots. The zionist israeli way.
Then why do you think the Jews should cede Jerusalem to the Muslims because it was prophesied by Muhammed?
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      02-19-2007, 06:23 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Is it legal to conduct a Christian or Jewish worship service in Saudi Arabia today?

Can a Jew be a citizen of Saudi Arabia?

Can a Jew be a citizen of Jordan?

Is it legal to conduct a Muslim worship service in Israel?

Can a Muslim be a citizen of Israel?



Then why do you think the Jews should cede Jerusalem to the Muslims because it was prophesied by Muhammed?
Thats better, answers with some substance. Unfortunately i have to concede on these points. However, and i'm sure you expected an however, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Jordan are not Islamic States but states with puppets as leaders controlled by their western masters. So sad!
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      02-19-2007, 06:29 PM   #106
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Thats better, answers with some substance. Unfortunately i have to concede on these points. However, and i'm sure you expected an however, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Jordan are not Islamic States but states with puppets as leaders controlled by their western masters. So sad!
Are you saying the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic state?
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      02-19-2007, 06:32 PM   #107
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Are you saying the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is not an Islamic state?
Yes. An islamic state has to have a caliph as its leader. The last caliphate was ended by the British in 1924. So there are no islamic states anywhere in the world. We believe a caliphate will be established at the end times with the coming of The Mahdi, who precedes The Messiah (The Holy Prophet Jesus) by 7 years.
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      02-19-2007, 06:33 PM   #108
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Yes
Then what is?
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      02-19-2007, 06:43 PM   #109
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Then what is?
Sorry I expanded my answer please refer back to post 108
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      02-19-2007, 06:55 PM   #110
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Yes. An islamic state has to have a caliph as its leader. The last caliphate was ended by the British in 1924. So there are no islamic states anywhere in the world. We believe a caliphate will be established at the end times with the coming of The Mahdi, who precedes The Messiah (The Holy Prophet Jesus) by 7 years.
Then you concede the alternative available to the Jews of Israel in 1947 was not an Islamic state where they would have complete religious freedom?

I ask this question without conceding your assertion that Jews and Christians were treated as equals under Islamic rule.
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