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      12-06-2010, 07:56 PM   #1
advans
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Nitrogen Fill

So guys,

A buddy of mine did me this huge favor of putting on my Blizzak WS60s on my Winter wheels, and decided to nitro fill the Blizzaks as well as my Current PS2s/ZCP wheels.

My gosh, it's a definite noticeable difference! I feel that the car is a bit more stuck to the ground and the car has less bounce! even driving with EDC on Sport in NYC!

Just wondering if any other fanatics have nitro-fill!
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      12-06-2010, 08:31 PM   #2
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ideal gas law - assuming air is dry, there should be no difference between N2 and Air
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      12-06-2010, 08:31 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by advans View Post
So guys,

A buddy of mine did me this huge favor of putting on my Blizzak WS60s on my Winter wheels, and decided to nitro fill the Blizzaks as well as my Current PS2s/ZCP wheels.

My gosh, it's a definite noticeable difference! I feel that the car is a bit more stuck to the ground and the car has less bounce! even driving with EDC on Sport in NYC!

Just wondering if any other fanatics have nitro-fill!


Yeaaaaaaaah. Considering that air is ~78% nitrogen anyway. My immediate suspicion is that any difference you detect is due to a difference in tire pressure before and after the nitrogen fill.
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      12-06-2010, 08:33 PM   #4
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ideal gas law - assuming air is dry, there should be no difference between N2 and Air
Ah , yes the old pV=nRT.
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      12-07-2010, 09:31 AM   #5
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Okay, I had it in my summer tires on my 2008 550i. I took them off around Thanksgiving and put them back on the car in late March. Three of them were down close to 3 PSI when one of the touted benefits of nitrogen is that the tires don't lose air. I think it's total BS.
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      12-07-2010, 12:38 PM   #6
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Nitrogen tire pressures must be different. I assume rule of thumb extra 3 PSI... but I do not know. BMW assumes you put air, and prints pressures for air, not Nitrogen.
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      12-07-2010, 12:48 PM   #7
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Nitrogen tire pressures must be different. I assume rule of thumb extra 3 PSI... but I do not know. BMW assumes you put air, and prints pressures for air, not Nitrogen.
the machine they have was a swap, you fill your tires up to the PSI you want with Air, then you plug in the nitro machine and it does a air swap, its awesome, process takes abt 15 mins total for all 4 tires.
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      12-07-2010, 05:21 PM   #8
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the whole point is that given the fact that there is no water in a tire completely filled with nitrogen (as opposed to regular air) the tire will be much less prone to wide pressure variations with different temperatures (read pressure will not go up as much on the track)

as for if it works well or not...well...in theory...........
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      12-07-2010, 06:16 PM   #9
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like totally, OMG, i got about 80% N2 fill the other day and it's superb, waayy better than before!!!
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      12-07-2010, 06:21 PM   #10
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the whole point is that given the fact that there is no water in a tire completely filled with nitrogen (as opposed to regular air) the tire will be much less prone to wide pressure variations with different temperatures (read pressure will not go up as much on the track)

as for if it works well or not...well...in theory...........
I don't think so. The ideal gas law still applies to both air and nitrogen equally. If the temp goes up the pressure will go up proportionally regardless of the gas inside the tire. PV=nRT does not have a term for the element.

P=pressure
V=volume
n=moles of gas
T=temperature
R = gas constant = 0.0821 L atm K-1 mol-1.

Furthermore, tire temps will not get hot enough to cause any moisture in the tire to effect the pressure (it would need to approach boiling point) and that the amount of moisture in the air in the tire is insignificant.

If there is still some concern it would be money better spent to buy a dryer for your compressor rather than fill up with nitrogen.
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      12-07-2010, 08:43 PM   #11
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•Tires stay inflated. Nitrogen molecules are three times bigger than oxygen, so gas escapes more slowly from the tire. This keeps the tire inflated longer at the correct level.

•Fuel economy improved. Nitrogen expands less than oxygen, so tire pressure doesn't go up and down as tires heat and cool. Underinflated tires reduce gas mileage.

•Tires and wheels last longer. Underinflated tires get hot and wear more quickly. And since there's less moisture inside the tire, rubber rots and steel rims rust more slowly.

•Vehicles handle better. Nitrogen is more common in 18-wheelers than passenger cars. NASCAR and Formula One drivers use nitro for better steering and performance. Aircraft tires are inflated with nitrogen or helium to minimize expansion and contraction from changes in temperature and atmospheric pressure during flight.


Nitrogen is filled even on the ALMS M3 Cars. To those about that say it's BS. I felt the difference in terms of handling. the car has less bounce.
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      12-07-2010, 09:09 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonteCarloM3 View Post
like totally, OMG, i got about 80% N2 fill the other day and it's superb, waayy better than before!!!
Like OMG!, 80 is like way too much, I use like 78%
Brb bff lol
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      12-07-2010, 09:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advans View Post
•Tires stay inflated. Nitrogen molecules are three times bigger than oxygen, so gas escapes more slowly from the tire. This keeps the tire inflated longer at the correct level.

•Fuel economy improved. Nitrogen expands less than oxygen, so tire pressure doesn't go up and down as tires heat and cool. Underinflated tires reduce gas mileage.

•Tires and wheels last longer. Underinflated tires get hot and wear more quickly. And since there's less moisture inside the tire, rubber rots and steel rims rust more slowly.

•Vehicles handle better. Nitrogen is more common in 18-wheelers than passenger cars. NASCAR and Formula One drivers use nitro for better steering and performance. Aircraft tires are inflated with nitrogen or helium to minimize expansion and contraction from changes in temperature and atmospheric pressure during flight.


Nitrogen is filled even on the ALMS M3 Cars. To those about that say it's BS. I felt the difference in terms of handling. the car has less bounce.
Physics doesn't support your claim
* MW of N2 is 28, MW of O2 is 32 - doubtful that N2 molecule is bigger
* PV = nRT defines expansion of N2 AND AIR/O2 - basically they expand in exact same proportion with change in temperature
* Aircraft use N2 because they want bone dry gas, since water in air would freeze during flight. Also, I seem to remember there is some concern with tire rupture with air being a fire concern, but I could be dreaming that one.

discuss...
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      12-07-2010, 09:43 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advans View Post
•Tires stay inflated. Nitrogen molecules are three times bigger than oxygen, so gas escapes more slowly from the tire. This keeps the tire inflated longer at the correct level.

•Fuel economy improved. Nitrogen expands less than oxygen, so tire pressure doesn't go up and down as tires heat and cool. Underinflated tires reduce gas mileage.

•Tires and wheels last longer. Underinflated tires get hot and wear more quickly. And since there's less moisture inside the tire, rubber rots and steel rims rust more slowly.

•Vehicles handle better. Nitrogen is more common in 18-wheelers than passenger cars. NASCAR and Formula One drivers use nitro for better steering and performance. Aircraft tires are inflated with nitrogen or helium to minimize expansion and contraction from changes in temperature and atmospheric pressure during flight.


Nitrogen is filled even on the ALMS M3 Cars. To those about that say it's BS. I felt the difference in terms of handling. the car has less bounce.

1) Nitrogen DOES NOT expand less than oxygen. See Ideal Gas Law...again.
2) I have NEVER seen a tire rot or wheel rust from the minute amount of moisture in air inside a tire. I have to call "Shenanigans" on this one.
3) Aircraft tires are filled with nitrogen because nitrogen is not an oxidizer (like oxygen) and will not support combustion. It is good to avoid the chance of combustion in the event of a tire blowout upon landing.
4) Better steering and performance? You are filling the tires with a gas to keep them inflated. If you can provide some specific science to show the type of gas used to inflate the tires makes a difference I will listen, otherwise I need to call "Shenanigans" again.
5) Car has less bounce? Are you trying to say that nitrogen reacts differently than air, which is 78% nitrogen, to compression and expansion? I hate to repeat myself, but I'm going back to the ideal gas law thing again.

Last edited by Dave2; 12-07-2010 at 09:52 PM.
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      12-07-2010, 09:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
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•Tires stay inflated. Nitrogen molecules are three times bigger than oxygen, so gas escapes more slowly from the tire. This keeps the tire inflated longer at the correct level.
Uh huh. But you're talking about permiation here, not effusion. Most tire pressure loss is do to effusion - leaks between the tire bead and rim, valve stem, stem core, etc.

Quote:
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•Fuel economy improved. Nitrogen expands less than oxygen, so tire pressure doesn't go up and down as tires heat and cool. Underinflated tires reduce gas mileage.
Not true. Review your gas laws.

Quote:
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•Tires and wheels last longer. Underinflated tires get hot and wear more quickly. And since there's less moisture inside the tire, rubber rots and steel rims rust more slowly.
Underinflation is not fixed by nitrogen, per point #1. Fill your tires with dry air. Synthetic rubber tires will wear out long before they rot out.

Who's using nitrogen with steel rims?? But either way, that's BS too. Nitrogen is not a magically dry gas. During manufacturing (isolation), there's plenty of moisture in the gas. It's run through a dryer, just like the air in my compressor. Nitrogen is dry because it's run through a dryer. They're cheap, get one.


Quote:
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•Vehicles handle better. Nitrogen is more common in 18-wheelers than passenger cars. NASCAR and Formula One drivers use nitro for better steering and performance. Aircraft tires are inflated with nitrogen or helium to minimize expansion and contraction from changes in temperature and atmospheric pressure during flight.

Nitrogen is filled even on the ALMS M3 Cars. To those about that say it's BS. I felt the difference in terms of handling. the car has less bounce.
Less bounce is due to a properly inflated tire, which is the "better handling". The modulus of elasticity for air vs. nitro is nearly identical, and the differences can not be detected outside of a very sophisticated laboratory. NASCAR and F1 will do all kinds of crazy shit for an edge, whether it's there or not.
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      12-07-2010, 10:01 PM   #16
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lol oh man, why so serious?

http://www.nitrofill.com/nitrogen-fi...ires-faqs.aspx
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      12-07-2010, 11:09 PM   #17
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I'm sure these "facts" are unbiased, being from a vendor. Bottom line is that nitrogen is a marginally better gas for tire inflation. I'm not going to tell anyone not to use it, but the benefit for most people does not support the cost, IMO.
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      12-08-2010, 07:39 AM   #18
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I'm sure these "facts" are unbiased, being from a vendor. Bottom line is that nitrogen is a marginally better gas for tire inflation. I'm not going to tell anyone not to use it, but the benefit for most people does not support the cost, IMO.
lol I wouldn't have paid for it, I got it done for free. in all of my tires.
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      12-08-2010, 10:11 AM   #19
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Nitrogen fill & cold temps

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The reality is there is no tangible benefit to using nitrogen in street vehicle tires. It's just another sales job for the gullible public who are actually foolish enough to pay for it.

In the auto industry these scams are known as a "cash-flow-device" where in they take the cash out of your pocket and flow it into their bank account.
I did just read in the 1/11 R&T (p. 106) this from a Faribanks driver, "...one advantage to nitrogen tire fills: enhanced pressure stability in cold temepratures. With modern tire pressure monitoring systems, annoying warning lights are commonly lit in the morning when the air is cold and thus pressure drops. And in Alaska, it can take a long time for temperatures to rise. 'Swapping nitrogen for moisture-lden aur virtually eliminates this annoying situation for owners of newer vehicles in climates where extreme cold is a way of life,' he advises"
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      12-08-2010, 11:30 AM   #20
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Greg has it right. Benefits of nitrogen do exist, but for passenger car applications are negligible as compared to *well maintained* tires with reasonably dry air.

If it gets cold out, and pressure drops with temperature, just add some air. That'll fix that pesky TPMS light.

If you're getting it free, there's no reason not to use nitrogen.. Keep on rockin. If a shop is trying to sell it to you for $10 per tire, it's not worth it.
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      12-08-2010, 12:09 PM   #21
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Greg has it right. Benefits of nitrogen do exist, but for passenger car applications are negligible as compared to *well maintained* tires with reasonably dry air.

If it gets cold out, and pressure drops with temperature, just add some air. That'll fix that pesky TPMS light.

If you're getting it free, there's no reason not to use nitrogen.. Keep on rockin. If a shop is trying to sell it to you for $10 per tire, it's not worth it.
thankyou
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      12-08-2010, 12:12 PM   #22
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I hope your comments are sarcasm/joke?

I was thinking the exact same thing +1

Next he'll be dyno testing with & w/o Nitrogen
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