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      10-19-2011, 05:29 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
I doubt you're hurting anyones feelings. I just just fail to see how it leads to anything constructive.
Its about as constructive as a bunch of NON-car people, talking about cars before doing any research, make assertions and comments that are just plain naive. I think the reason is that people are just padding threads, not adding facts, numbers, or constructive ideas. It's a lot of fluff, not a lot of relevance.

See below...

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Originally Posted by erio View Post
I'm not stupid, but if saying that makes you feel better so be it. Thanks for the immature comment. Typical M3 forum member you are indeed. It's hard to post something on this forum without someone making an ignorant childish response. So typical. This is one of the downfalls of the M3 forum. I rarely see comments like this on other forums I follow.

Did I mention anything about the last generations? What does that have to do with my comments? You didn't even properly respond to my post. Well your assumptions are false as I'm well aware of the GTRs history dating back to 1969, including it's racing history. In fact some of those cars were imported here.

Anyway, I was responding to your statement that there are many other cars to choose from that will allow similar performance. Maybe you should read your own thread to see that. See above. It's not all about 0-60 or 1/4 mile times. The civic was obviously an exaggerated example that can be applied to an EVO, Mustang, etc.

Erio, here it is in a nutshell; the Skyline GT-R from about 10 years ago was capable of similar performance. If you are well versed you'd know that about 10 years ago some special edition R34- GTRs were running sub 4 seconds 0-60, without all the technology, tires that the current GT-R has.

Don't bring up a civic, bring up an EVO or a GTR, cars with production level highly tuned cars like the Evo FQ400 or the Z-Tuned Skyline GTR, don't sit here and bullshit me with a honda civic. You want to have an educated debate, bring the facts...

On every other forum, threads like this would get crushed with people who actually race, actually tune their own cars, or get their hands dirty (not via the keyboard). I don't get the feeling that you have any real hands on experience or history with modified cars...
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      10-19-2011, 06:00 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Nine View Post
Its about as constructive as a bunch of NON-car people, talking about cars before doing any research, make assertions and comments that are just plain naive. I think the reason is that people are just padding threads, not adding facts, numbers, or constructive ideas. It's a lot of fluff, not a lot of relevance.

See below...




Erio, here it is in a nutshell; the Skyline GT-R from about 10 years ago was capable of similar performance. If you are well versed you'd know that about 10 years ago some special edition R34- GTRs were running sub 4 seconds 0-60, without all the technology, tires that the current GT-R has.

Don't bring up a civic, bring up an EVO or a GTR, cars with production level highly tuned cars like the Evo FQ400 or the Z-Tuned Skyline GTR, don't sit here and bullshit me with a honda civic. You want to have an educated debate, bring the facts...

On every other forum, threads like this would get crushed with people who actually race, actually tune their own cars, or get their hands dirty (not via the keyboard). I don't get the feeling that you have any real hands on experience or history with modified cars...
You are sadly misinformed and have no clue what kind of cars I have had or currently have other than those listed in my profile. I'm not getting "crushed" by anyone, esp. you and your snide comments. Why in do you keep bringing up the r34? Are you serious? As I said before my comment was in relation to your statement about a tuned Mustang and Evo, using a civic as an exaggerated example to get my point across. My response to your thread had nothing to do with previous skyline cars. However, you also have erroneous information about the R34. It may not have had the same degree of technology as the R35, it still had an ATTESA AWD system, multifunction display, etc. Even the v-spec did not have sub 4 sec. 0-60 stock. I don't know where you get your numbers from, but I will post some facts for you below. The Z tune r34 you are referring to was part of a limited run of 20 cars that cost about 180k and of course was also not available in the states. Anybody can look that up.

http://www.jbskyline.net/r34/gtr/specs/

http://www.insideline.com/nissan/gt-...-r-z-tune.html

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      10-19-2011, 06:36 PM   #113
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Its about as constructive as a bunch of NON-car people, talking about cars before doing any research, make assertions and comments that are just plain naive. I think the reason is that people are just padding threads, not adding facts, numbers, or constructive ideas. It's a lot of fluff, not a lot of relevance.

No your arrogant comments and non sequiturs are less than non-constructive, they're just hostile.
The GTRs performance is amazing and to demean someone for be astounded by it is flat out bizarre.
For a stock car it is an incredible achievement.
And throwing in tuned cars is apples and oranges. Warranties, reliability, depreciation and resale are pretty much flushed when doing serious modifying. So from a cost standpoint a GTR is still a bargain.
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      10-19-2011, 07:00 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by erio View Post
. Even the v-spec did not have sub 4 sec. 0-60 stock. I don't know where you get your numbers from, but I will post some facts for you below. The Z tune r34 you are referring to was part of a limited run of 20 cars that cost about 180k and of course was also not available in the states. Anybody can look that up.
It seems hard to get you to even acknowledge the potential of past Skyline GT-Rs, and with this I am done. The point is, for it's lineage, the GT-R is not breaking into 'amazing' territory.


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Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
No your arrogant comments and non sequiturs are less than non-constructive, they're just hostile.
The GTRs performance is amazing and to demean someone for be astounded by it is flat out bizarre.
For a stock car it is an incredible achievement.
And throwing in tuned cars is apples and oranges. Warranties, reliability, depreciation and resale are pretty much flushed when doing serious modifying. So from a cost standpoint a GTR is still a bargain.
Arrogant, no no no; arrogance is the GTR owners trolling the M3 forums with little or no understanding of the history of the Skylines. I get it, you guys own GT-Rs, but the way you wear it around these forums like it's some badge of honor is arrogance.

What I would have expected in response to this thread is, something like at the launch of the GT-R companies like Cobb tuning went to work to extract this type power, and were capable of attaining these gains...these 2011-2012 numbers should not be shocking to owners in the 'know' or even people who know and followed the Skylines of the past.

Yet kudos and praise are thrown around like the Nissan engineers cracked some secret code.
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      10-19-2011, 07:16 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Nine View Post
It seems hard to get you to even acknowledge the potential of past Skyline GT-Rs, and with this I am done. The point is, for it's lineage, the GT-R is not breaking into 'amazing' territory.




Arrogant, no no no; arrogance is the GTR owners trolling the M3 forums with little or no understanding of the history of the Skylines. I get it, you guys own GT-Rs, but the way you wear it around these forums like it's some badge of honor is arrogance.

What I would have expected in response to this thread is, something like at the launch of the GT-R companies like Cobb tuning went to work to extract this type power, and were capable of attaining these gains...these 2011-2012 numbers should not be shocking to owners in the 'know' or even people who know and followed the Skylines of the past.

Yet kudos and praise are thrown around like the Nissan engineers cracked some secret code.
We were not acting arrogant. I have been on this forum longer than you and have a ton of respect for all types of cars, esp. the M3. There is a lot of hate toward the gtr on this forum. Just search and you will find plenty of threads. Neither of us said the previous gtr wasn't a major accomplishment. That never came up. You have taken this debate way off course. However, to say that the newer version is not a major improvement is simply false as were the figures you quoted about the r34, esp. if you claim to be in the know.

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      10-19-2011, 07:26 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Nine View Post
Arrogant, no no no; arrogance is the GTR owners trolling the M3 forums with little or no understanding of the history of the Skylines. I get it, you guys own GT-Rs, but the way you wear it around these forums like it's some badge of honor is arrogance.

What I would have expected in response to this thread is, something like at the launch of the GT-R companies like Cobb tuning went to work to extract this type power, and were capable of attaining these gains...these 2011-2012 numbers should not be shocking to owners in the 'know' or even people who know and followed the Skylines of the past.

Yet kudos and praise are thrown around like the Nissan engineers cracked some secret code.


Another non sequitur. Since when was this thread about the unobtainable Skylines of the past? And how is it trolling when the thread is about GTRs, started by someone that doesn't own an R35? The performance numbers are amazing and for you to shrug them off as a complete yawner strikes me as weird. Show me a stock car with those numbers for that price and I'm impressed.
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      10-19-2011, 09:45 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
Another non sequitur. Since when was this thread about the unobtainable Skylines of the past? And how is it trolling when the thread is about GTRs, started by someone that doesn't own an R35? The performance numbers are amazing and for you to shrug them off as a complete yawner strikes me as weird. Show me a stock car with those numbers for that price and I'm impressed.
Most other competitors in the price range do not have AWD, and a dual clutch which give the GT-R a large advantage in 0-60 and 1/4 measurements., This leads me back to my original point, it's not a unique formula, shouldn't come as a shocker...


I'd say the 2011 Z06 is a great competitor for the GT-R, both in price and potenential. In this comparison, they have even track times, vette has a higher trap...but obviously without a dual gear clutch or awd, 1/4 times obviously are hurt.

I think a rational person would see the vette has very close if not equal in some respects to the GT-R's numbers.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

does this impress you? Note* I don't have 2012 z06 numbers in here...
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      10-19-2011, 10:00 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by Nine View Post
Most other competitors in the price range do not have AWD, and a dual clutch which give the GT-R a large advantage in 0-60 and 1/4 measurements., This leads me back to my original point, it's not a unique formula, shouldn't come as a shocker...


I'd say the 2011 Z06 is a great competitor for the GT-R, both in price and potenential. In this comparison, they have even track times, vette has a higher trap...but obviously without a dual gear clutch or awd, 1/4 times obviously are hurt.

I think a rational person would see the vette has very close if not equal in some respects to the GT-R's numbers.

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...n/viewall.html

does this impress you? Note* I don't have 2012 z06 numbers in here...


Yes a Z06 is impressive as is a ZR1. I still don't get the contempt for the GTR and its fans. It's a beast and given its weight its a lot more nimble and faster than one would assume just looking at its specs.
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      10-19-2011, 10:16 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by 997GT3 View Post
Tell me how well the Subie warranty stands up when you tune it to run roughly the same performance numbers a stock GTR hits? And please tell me how well tuned cars hold their value when you try and sell them?
Frankly tuned cars are expensive and risky propositions.
And you may have a bias towards Porsche but price is very much a factor for a great number of people. I have been chomping at the bit to buy a 911 but every time I get close I can't rationalize the price gap.
I'm agreeing with you. That's 100% my point. For example, Porsche backs their cars at the track.. that's confidence in engineering. Not to mention prestige and so forth. Tuning gets out of hand. I was part of the Subaru community. I saw $60,000 invested STis that were unreliable but performed well despite being borderline undriveable.

But I mean yeah.. GTR wise.. you're right about the price, but what would you rather own? Personally the GTR isn't my style. I'd just either go M3, or wait, save, hope to make more money and pick up a Porsche.
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      10-19-2011, 10:18 PM   #120
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I just disagree. Originally they were but in the lest 5 years or so the performance of the Sti and Evo in many ways has gone down if we are talking strictly about numbers.
Not to mention if you option out an Evo and Sti with the most basic features offered in luxury cars they run 38-48k. The price really went up when they tried to target an older market.

Today's bargains - 5.0 Mustang and V6 Mustang (even a V6 will kill an Sti on a track), Hyundai Genesis, Cobalt SS, Camaro SS and V6 to name a few in the 20-35k range.

Just my .02
I see your point. Though at altitude you can probably see where I'm coming from with the turbo argument. Good point about the GT and Genesis though. If we want to keep the argument strictly about numbers; I am in agreement.. though this thread seems to constantly reference prices... my argument here is that, if we are to argue the price, then things get pretty complex.
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      10-20-2011, 12:42 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Nine View Post
Most other competitors in the price range do not have AWD, and a dual clutch which give the GT-R a large advantage in 0-60 and 1/4 measurements., This leads me back to my original point, it's not a unique formula, shouldn't come as a shocker...
If not unique... why haven't others been able to duplicate it for the same money? Look at the R8 (V8 & V10)... both considerably slower at everything... yet arguably would be considered to be the more advanced, when considering cost?

I just got back from doing the Mojave Mile... and I got to say... after beating the new Ferrari 458, every 'bolt on' Z-06, every stock ZR1, stock R8... a Twin Turbo R8 GT V10... beat me by .1 in the mile...

The GTR is an amazing car... how 3800lbs... handles, stops, and accelerates like that... is a cool feat Nissan pulled off.

I don't own a car long enough to be considered a brand whore... but this one is nice for now.

Here's my video... have to look closely to see the MPH... but best I could get from the angle and glare.

http://youtu.be/9rEMne1tyIE?hd=1

Thanks,
Dave
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      10-20-2011, 07:29 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
If not unique... why haven't others been able to duplicate it for the same money? Look at the R8 (V8 & V10)... both considerably slower at everything... yet arguably would be considered to be the more advanced, when considering cost?

I just got back from doing the Mojave Mile... and I got to say... after beating the new Ferrari 458, every 'bolt on' Z-06, every stock ZR1, stock R8... a Twin Turbo R8 GT V10... beat me by .1 in the mile...

The GTR is an amazing car... how 3800lbs... handles, stops, and accelerates like that... is a cool feat Nissan pulled off.

I don't own a car long enough to be considered a brand whore... but this one is nice for now.

Here's my video... have to look closely to see the MPH... but best I could get from the angle and glare.

http://youtu.be/9rEMne1tyIE?hd=1

Thanks,
Dave
Nice. What mods do you have? I couldn't agree with you more. People just don't want to accept the GTR for whatever reason. Some remain fixated on a brand. I had a 997.1tt a couple years ago and by far I prefer the GTR...at least for now. It's faster and I'm personally bored with the same old Porsche styling.

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      10-20-2011, 08:36 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
If not unique... why haven't others been able to duplicate it for the same money? Look at the R8 (V8 & V10)... both considerably slower at everything... yet arguably would be considered to be the more advanced, when considering cost?

Thanks,
Dave
That is a deep and complex question, I think it's imbred in the customer bases,the bread and butter of corvette owners love the high reving v8 engines, just talk to them about a z06 at it's limit and you'll hear their enthusiam. I think it is clear that Nissan is designing the GT-R for a different type of car person than a Chevy is. American car companies can go toe to toe on AWD Turbo cars, if they really wanted. Take a car like the focus RS. But again, a lot of this is driven by the formula, for the z06 it's high reving v8, RWD and lightweight.

For Chevy, Ford, Cadillac it would be too much of a customer sacrifice to change the formula, by moving to AWD and a Twin Turbo setup. But past cars like the Buick GNX or the Supra T or TT, show us that these Turbo type setups are capable of amazing performance numbers.

Pricing is another complex aspect of the car market, I think we can all agree that the Nissan GT-R is under priced, a performance bargain that Nissan might break-even on, considering the technology and parts. This is partially driving the dissonance that the GT-R causes.

My whole point is, 0-60 in 3-3.5 seconds, not shocking...when somebody get's a new generation GT-R under 7 seconds in the 1/4, then I will be in shock and awe.
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      10-20-2011, 09:02 AM   #124
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Four GTR's showed up at a track day I was participating in and after that day I gained full respect for that car. The cars were barely modified but just blew by everything on the track. One of my friends who is an instructor got to drive one and he said "Even if I do track days for the next 20 years at the rate I am doing them now I will still not be even close to reaching the limit of that car. It's amazing!"

It was funny that the corvette guys at the beginning of the day were talking about how many times they were going to pass the GTRs. By the end of the day they were discussing how many times they were passed. Just incredible.
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      10-20-2011, 09:57 AM   #125
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Nice. What mods do you have? I couldn't agree with you more. People just don't want to accept the GTR for whatever reason. Some remain fixated on a brand. I had a 997.1tt a couple years ago and by far I prefer the GTR...at least for now. It's faster and I'm personally bored with the same old Porsche styling.
Thanks, yeah agree... I had been looking/considering a TT Porsche before purchasing the GTR... and I am extremely impressed with the choice. I have a Cobb Accessport & a MidPipe.

Peace,
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      10-20-2011, 05:44 PM   #126
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Is that not what selling cars like the GT-R is all about, a wallet comparison? Let's be honest here, most people can't afford a 100k car. Not to mention the dick contest, I drive Porsche, well my Nissan is faster, etc etc...

I wouldn't say it's moot, it's what Nissan is doing, they are acting in place of what most JDM tuners would be doing. Increase boost, install high flow exhaust, adjust engine management system, this shouldn't be something that shocks people.

What is annoying is that the Skyline GT-R fans, or people who followed the previous models are the minority of the GT-R owners and fan boys. The new school people are some how shocked that this new platform can produce such power or numbers, to me it's shocking, They've never heard of an R-33 or R-34??? really??
No one is shocked.
It's factory trim, with a warranty. As it comes.
At some point you have to choose a baseline for any comparison.
"Stock" is a good starting point - since it's just that, the "starting" point.

On the other hand, if you just want to compare budgets, then I suspect these would be the winners every time :
- Base vette + blower = stupid power per dollar
- evo/sti + whatever mods = stupid power per dollar
(I'm avoiding the 'multi million dollar' scenario here...)

-scheherazade
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      10-20-2011, 08:06 PM   #127
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The point is, for it's lineage, the GT-R is not breaking into 'amazing' territory.
LMFAO OMG this is golden. This has to be the all time lowest IQ poster I have ever read.

Porsche's must be a piece of shit since the inception of the 959. God who would want a 911 GT3 or Turbo??? Theyre not even amazing or fast compared to their lineage.

And your R34 comments. Thats like saying Justin Bieber and Rap artists shouldnt be allowed to buy $300K Ferrari's without knowing the history of the 250 GTO and atleast 10 lemans winners last names. Grow up. But thank you for the Epic laugh

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      10-21-2011, 09:18 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by scheherazade View Post
No one is shocked.
It's factory trim, with a warranty. As it comes.
At some point you have to choose a baseline for any comparison.
"Stock" is a good starting point - since it's just that, the "starting" point.

On the other hand, if you just want to compare budgets, then I suspect these would be the winners every time :
- Base vette + blower = stupid power per dollar
- evo/sti + whatever mods = stupid power per dollar
(I'm avoiding the 'multi million dollar' scenario here...)

-scheherazade
Yes but....just kidding, ok I get it.




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Originally Posted by Optherion View Post
LMFAO OMG this is golden. This has to be the all time lowest IQ poster I have ever read.

Porsche's must be a piece of shit since the inception of the 959. God who would want a 911 GT3 or Turbo??? Theyre not even amazing or fast compared to their lineage.

And your R34 comments. Thats like saying Justin Bieber and Rap artists shouldnt be allowed to buy $300K Ferrari's without knowing the history of the 250 GTO and atleast 10 lemans winners last names. Grow up. But thank you for the Epic laugh


A lot of people did feel that the early (996) were junk (not quite sure about the 996GT3), even the 996 Turbo. You wouldn't get that sentiment when comparing it to say, a 993. Actually if you look at some of the performance feats of a 993, well..I don't want to open that can of worms, Shirley my IQ is too small to have such discourse.

To your second point, Did you just liken GT-R owners to Justin Bieber, I'll take that (joke), I'm not not talking about owners, or non-owners, people are allowed to own whatever they want with their money.

If I was on a gun forum and somebody started posting about how amazing a barrett 107 50 Cal was, I'd agree, it is amazing...but there have been other very successuful iteration, this passion and obsession with the storyline of these cars makes it more than just a possession (for me at least), I don't own a car just to own it and tell people I have one. And, if you followed th lineage, you may understand where I'm coming from.

If cars are like hookers to you, then you probably won't.
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      10-21-2011, 10:36 AM   #129
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Every now and then I venture into the M3 vs.... forum for a good show.

Seems I've found one.

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      10-21-2011, 11:22 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Nine View Post
It seems hard to get you to even acknowledge the potential of past Skyline GT-Rs, and with this I am done. The point is, for it's lineage, the GT-R is not breaking into 'amazing' territory.


Arrogant, no no no; arrogance is the GTR owners trolling the M3 forums with little or no understanding of the history of the Skylines. I get it, you guys own GT-Rs, but the way you wear it around these forums like it's some badge of honor is arrogance.

What I would have expected in response to this thread is, something like at the launch of the GT-R companies like Cobb tuning went to work to extract this type power, and were capable of attaining these gains...these 2011-2012 numbers should not be shocking to owners in the 'know' or even people who know and followed the Skylines of the past.

Yet kudos and praise are thrown around like the Nissan engineers cracked some secret code.
The GTR is an epic car and as such the feat of Nissan engineers should never be discounted. As much of a M fan as I am-what GTR is and represents is a sledgehammer to all the blue blooded european aristocracy. It represents what Asia can do when given a challenge. The GTR is Japan's way of saying-Bring It On!!
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      10-21-2011, 12:50 PM   #131
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Another non sequitur. Since when was this thread about the unobtainable Skylines of the past? And how is it trolling when the thread is about GTRs, started by someone that doesn't own an R35? The performance numbers are amazing and for you to shrug them off as a complete yawner strikes me as weird. Show me a stock car with those numbers for that price and I'm impressed.
Wait till 2013. 570HP. I wouldn't be surprised if it came very close with the Veryron in a 2.5s sprint to 60. It can do 2.88 now.
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      10-21-2011, 01:46 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by checkmate View Post
The GTR is an epic car and as such the feat of Nissan engineers should never be discounted. As much of a M fan as I am-what GTR is and represents is a sledgehammer to all the blue blooded european aristocracy. It represents what Asia can do when given a challenge. The GTR is Japan's way of saying-Bring It On!!
The GTR is EPIC, really? I think it's more the price tag that is making it so 'epic'. I not discounting Nissan engineers, I'm saying, for the Skylines, there has always been untapped power. My intentions of pointing to past Skylines was to show how amazing they were, and how an amazing GT-R, is just the next generation of an amazing car, I expect to hear about amazingly fast GT-Rs, like a TT porsche, you just know it's going to be fast.

If say Toyota, would make an amazing 2013 supra tt, and say it came with 550hp, and suddenly the engineers at Toyota extracted 650hp by adding boost/psi sold as stock, my arguement would be the same, guys were adding boost a long time ago.
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