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      11-17-2010, 01:06 PM   #1
ssabripo
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M157 based C63 AMG... scary! how would the current e9X do?

man, this thing seriously has me thinking!

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...est/index.html


Quote:
First Test: 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG



I recently had the pleasure of batting and booting the 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG with the uncorked Performance Package option around the Hudson River Valley in Upstate New York. The twin-turbo, direct-injected 5.5-liter V-8 brawler of a motor serves up a spine-compressing 563 horsepower and an astonishing 664 pound-feet of torque. The car is so powerful it's silly. Remember, the Cadillac CTS-V makes just 556 horsepower and more than 100 pound-feet less torque (551 lb-ft).


But there's something...missing from the new AMG twin-turbo engine. Something...lacking. Something...something that's really hard to place your finger upon. And I think I know what it is, or at least what it might be.
What it is, is what it isn't. Namely, the new hand-built M157 is not the (also) hand-built M156. To refresh your synapses, M156 is the internal code for AMG's 6.2-liter V-8. It's a naturally aspirated natural wonder of an internal combustion engine that's about to ride off into the sunset. The reasons are many, but essentially, the horror-scare of $5-per-gallon gasoline combined with rising federal mileage standards and a corporate mandate to increase efficiency (remember when Mercedes-Benz said it'd be off petroleum by 2015?) all point to one certainty: Large-displacement, race-derived V-8s are not long for this world.

This sort of thing happens--once-cutting-edge technology that gets your blood pumping is crated up and put out to pasture. The world changes, time marches on, and sadly, some of the best stuff gets shunted out of the way. The Concord? Grounded. The moon? We don't go there any more. SR71 Blackbird? Decommissioned, because satellites do a better job/the Soviets called it quits. Speaking of our old enemy, remember the truly awe-inspiring Lun-class Ekranoplan, aka the Caspian Sea Monster? Same basic fate as the Blackbird, though instead of spending retirement in the Smithsonian, "the Duck" now rots in dry dock at an abandoned naval station near Kaspiysk.



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      11-17-2010, 01:11 PM   #2
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Ekranoplan ftw.

Wow, welcome to the future...I feel this is a good preview for the next gen M3 engine, but this article is confusing. They talk about the M157, but the review is of the last hurrah of the M156 C63 with the P31 AMG performance package...

Last edited by mdosu; 11-17-2010 at 01:16 PM.
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      11-17-2010, 03:32 PM   #3
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This C63 does not have the 5.5 TT V8. It's the 6.3(6.2) V8 with the performance package.

The writer said he drove the new CL63 with the new 5.5tt V8 that has 563 hp.

He's comparing it to the 6.3 v8, and says its not the same.
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      11-17-2010, 03:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HREM3 View Post
This C63 does not have the 5.5 TT V8. It's the 6.3(6.2) V8 with the performance package.

The writer said he drove the new CL63 with the new 5.5tt V8 that has 563 hp.

He's comparing it to the 6.3 v8, and says its not the same.
no, that was a typo (CL)... he drove a C63 with the new M157 engine, according to the article and the pictures. Autocar also had a first look last week with the same engine (without the power pack upgrade, so only 536hp).
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      11-17-2010, 04:26 PM   #5
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I'm Seeing it as it is the CL he was referring to in the beginning and the review is based on the C63 with the new performance package. Read the article and look at the pictures. The car still retains the 6.3 on it's fenders and he goes on saying how hp is bumped up to 480 something, but torque is the same. Read people.
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      11-17-2010, 04:48 PM   #6
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yeah i know the article was about the P31 AMG package, but he starts the article saying he drove a 2011 C63 with a M157...that's confusing.
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      11-18-2010, 09:11 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdosu View Post
yeah i know the article was about the P31 AMG package, but he starts the article saying he drove a 2011 C63 with a M157...that's confusing.
exactly!

and reading the merc forums, it's obvious that the C63 will have the m157 based engine available.
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      11-18-2010, 10:42 AM   #8
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This thing should be beast. Going to need so good tires though.
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      11-18-2010, 11:12 AM   #9
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should just make it easier to pass in the corners, straights could get tricky though
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      11-18-2010, 12:48 PM   #10
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We lose :/
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      11-18-2010, 01:18 PM   #11
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The last thing the C63 needed IMO was more power, aka the Perf Pack. So naturally, because at the ultimate level AMG doesn't *get* it, they went ahead and added *massively* more power with that twin turbo engine.

Faster than the outgoing car, but less entertaining. Great.

Epic fail, AMG...
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      11-19-2010, 07:19 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudiS5 View Post
I'm Seeing it as it is the CL he was referring to in the beginning and the review is based on the C63 with the new performance package. Read the article and look at the pictures. The car still retains the 6.3 on it's fenders and he goes on saying how hp is bumped up to 480 something, but torque is the same. Read people.

English here for many is the second language
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      11-19-2010, 09:55 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stylinexpat View Post
English here for many is the second language
Me included
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      11-19-2010, 01:33 PM   #14
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4 doors, leather seats, Slaughtering a Viper.
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      11-19-2010, 01:42 PM   #15
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When the C63 eventually does get the M157 engine, it will be a fire breathing monster.
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      11-19-2010, 02:04 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine View Post
4 doors, leather seats, Slaughtering a Viper.
Not a chance.

Less power, less grip, a lot more weight, taller CG.
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      11-19-2010, 02:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
When the C63 eventually does get the M157 engine, it will be a fire breathing monster.

+1
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      11-19-2010, 03:21 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
The last thing the C63 needed IMO was more power, aka the Perf Pack. So naturally, because at the ultimate level AMG doesn't *get* it, they went ahead and added *massively* more power with that twin turbo engine.

Faster than the outgoing car, but less entertaining. Great.

Epic fail, AMG...

How is this an "Epic Fail" ? We both know 99.9% of owners drive these cars on public roads. I can make a clear argument then a N54 car can be easily modified to shame a E9X M3 in these conditions for much less. It's very obvious, however most the E9X owners wont admit, that the weakness with your car is the motor. That is why you see many people paying BIG BUCKS for SC kits, because the simple bolt-on mods don't deliver the numbers a lot of realistic (non circuit track M3 owners) are looking to get.

Again the reality is 99.9% of owners use these cars as daily drivers on public roads. Whether the car is a second or two faster on a road course or the "Ring" is meaningless to the main stream buyer. Come on do you think the Sale Associate at a BMW dealer is showing track times to perspective buyers of M3? Hey I don't recall my SA showing me anything like that when I bought my E46 M3.

I know this means a lot to the hardcore enthusiast, but from a business perspective the mainstream buyer is the one BMW is looking to appease. It all about sales.
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      11-19-2010, 03:43 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
How is this an "Epic Fail" ?
Because nobody every complained about the lack of power in the C63. The latest batches of modifications by the AMG engineers don't address any of the areas of complaint or weaknesses.

So, a fail.

Quote:
I can make a clear argument then a N54 car can be easily modified to shame a E9X M3 in these conditions for much less.
What don't you understand? I wasn't talking about the money. I'm coming from a modified 335i, so I'd dare say I have more direct experience with those than you. There's no case to be made for that car...

Quote:
It's very obvious, however most the E9X owners wont admit, that the weakness with your car is the motor. That is why you see many people paying BIG BUCKS for SC kits, because the simple bolt-on mods don't deliver the numbers a lot of realistic (non circuit track M3 owners) are looking to get.
I cannot emphasize how wrong you can be. A lot of the E9x M3 owners bought the car *because of the engine*, not despite it. There are a few dozens supercharged cars in the US for thousands of stock M3's - a typical M3 production run over 4-5 years can run into 10,000 units or more.

The percentage of heavily modified cars is minuscule - less than 1% I'd be willing to bet. They just like to congregate on 1 or 2 forums, which is why you're aware of them. The vast array of modifications done (easily seen on this forum) is for the sake of coolness - looks & sound.

Quote:
Again the reality is 99.9% of owners use these cars as daily drivers on public roads. Whether the car is a second or two faster on a road course or the "Ring" is meaningless to the main stream buyer.
So what exactly are you saying? That in normal driving conditions you can safely deploy all 450, 480 or better yet 550 horses??? What possible good could another 100BHP do to your car? Make it roast its tires in even greater style? Accelerate even faster from 50 to 70 mph on a freeway???

Engineering wise, usability wise, it just doesn't make any sense.

Quote:
I know this means a lot to the hardcore enthusiast, but from a business perspective the mainstream buyer is the one BMW is looking to appease. It all about sales.
Well guess what - if AMG had dropped a good transmission in that car, or better yet a manual transmission, they'd definitely see more sales. Without needing to add even 1 more HP.


Edit: Listen, you need to understand something - you are on an M3 forum. Maybe you do like the character of the C63 AMG and enjoy it for what it is. There's nothing wrong with that at all. But if you spend your time on an M3 forum, you cannot fail to understand that perhaps the enthusiastic M3 owners are looking for something else in a car. I mean if they were looking for an AMG, they'd buy one right? So if we do love our M3's for what they are, why are you surprised about the lack of enthusiasm about another iteration of a car that we've skipped right past in the first place?
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Last edited by adc; 11-19-2010 at 03:50 PM.
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      11-19-2010, 05:48 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
The last thing the C63 needed IMO was more power, aka the Perf Pack. So naturally, because at the ultimate level AMG doesn't *get* it, they went ahead and added *massively* more power with that twin turbo engine.

Faster than the outgoing car, but less entertaining. Great.

Epic fail, AMG...
Coupla things...somewhat on the anal side...

I was a little confused as well by that article, but ultimately the test was of the C63 with the 6.2 liter normally aspirated V8 with the power bump. On that precise point, the only thing AMG did was to raise the power, and left the torque peak as is, which implies that the low-end torque curve is not affected.

The implication is that the steroidal C63 is no more traction-limited than the standard model, although it clearly pulls harder up top. Car & Driver ran 12.3s at 117 mph on Continentals. 12.3s are pretty impressive, but that 117 mph trap speed is stupendous. The implication is that on something grippier than Contis it would be even a bit quicker.

In regard to power, I fully agree with and have to quote David E. Davis (he of "Car & Driver" and "Automobile" magazine) when he wrote "Any car on the planet would be a better car if it just had 50 more horsepower".

I inferred from your note that you think the C63 needs a number of other things addressed, but I respectfully disagree. I think that the car would clearly benefit from a set of adjustable shocks, but don't think the car needs anything else. It's an immensely entertaining ride as is, and IMO is generally a more entertaining and better ride than the M3 is while just driving around. I think the M3 only gets into its groove when you are pretty much flailing it. Of course, that's a really terrific groove.

In regard to the AMG folks not getting it, I again respectfully disagree. They address their market in a Mercedes way - that's all. Including the automatic.

At a guess, pairing those two cars up on one of those early-Sunday-morning back-road drives at seven to eight tenths, both drivers would have face-splitting grins when they stopped for breakfast. It's only when you start pushing the envelope in that venue to nine-tenths or better where the M3 starts to shine brighter in actual speed if not fun. Of course, IMO only nutballs do nine-tenths or better on the street.

Bruce

PS - Re the recent comparison in "Car" magazine, the M3 came out on top overall, but they also loved the C63 because of the fun factor, and apparently a couple of their editors preferred it for that very reason.

I'm not putting down the M3, as both it and the C63 are just excellent, and manual shift aside (as a preference), they're pretty damned close to even based on my own experience. Different, but even.

PPS - Don't have a clue as to when they may install that twin-turbo V8 in the C63, but I think they'll simply have to go to AWD.
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      11-19-2010, 05:53 PM   #21
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      11-19-2010, 06:08 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce.augenstein@comcast. View Post
In regard to power, I fully agree with and have to quote David E. Davis (he of "Car & Driver" and "Automobile" magazine) when he wrote "Any car on the planet would be a better car if it just had 50 more horsepower".
And I respectfully disagree. I've been reading his recent articles in Car & Driver and I think he's slipping. (But that's not why I disagree).

Quote:
I inferred from your note that you think the C63 needs a number of other things addressed, but I respectfully disagree. I think that the car would clearly benefit from a set of adjustable shocks, but don't think the car needs anything else.
You're headed in the right direction with the adjustable shocks. IMO it also needs more/better tire, a better auto transmission, a standard limited slip and the choice of a manual transmission. And hopefully they would retune the suspension to make it change direction better in hard driving, like the M3 manages (not sure what's involved here - roll centers maybe? is it a track issue?).

It would steal quite a number of M3 sales that way. There is absolutely zero rationale for Mercedes not providing these, other than being smugly pig-headed and conservative about certain things.
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