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      12-10-2010, 12:42 AM   #45
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100k greedy dealer
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      12-10-2010, 02:16 AM   #46
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100k greedy dealer
Fuc* him for $100K, not in this economy.
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      12-10-2010, 10:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
They only made 250 in '95, mine was #175. They made 300 of the 2000 Cobra R's.

I had the Boss 302R on order... but I think more is coming from Ford still.

Dave
Been so long but I think you're right. Mine didn't survive a serious impact but the cage I put in saved my life. I still have the straightened momo race wheel though. Do you still have yours? The only other one I saw/drove was the Steeda car.
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      12-11-2010, 04:40 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by stylinexpat View Post
Fuc* him for $100K, not in this economy.
lol 100k really is ridicules, they want 42k for the regular Boss.
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      12-11-2010, 08:50 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
I had the Boss 302R on order... but I think more is coming from Ford still.

Dave
Wow, so were you planning to race it competitively? There's always the 302R1 too, if you can get your hands on one of the five they made.
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      12-11-2010, 02:06 PM   #50
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Been so long but I think you're right. Mine didn't survive a serious impact but the cage I put in saved my life. I still have the straightened momo race wheel though. Do you still have yours? The only other one I saw/drove was the Steeda car.
After I won the '03 ESP National Championship in mine... it went to a car collector in Northern California... along with Jason Priestly's Cobra R... both in his museum.

I still miss it!

Dave
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      12-11-2010, 02:08 PM   #51
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Wow, so were you planning to race it competitively? There's always the 302R1 too, if you can get your hands on one of the five they made.
I was just going to use for track days... be a fun car, that is 'turn-key' ready. But I have one too many as it is... so realized that probably isn't the best decision at this time.

Peace,
Dave
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      12-13-2010, 12:08 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by SCCAForums.com View Post
After I won the '03 ESP National Championship in mine... it went to a car collector in Northern California... along with Jason Priestly's Cobra R... both in his museum.

I still miss it!

Dave
Nice! Mine was initially setup for American Sedan then the mods got out of control and it was no longer competitive as classed.
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      12-14-2010, 12:56 PM   #53
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I don't understand why people complain about markups. If the market bears out the $100k price for these cars and someone is willing to pay it..then why not. Last I checked this was still the US with a free enterprise system. I think everyone knew this would happen. Whats funny is when dealers are selling cars at or even below invoice no one is complaining The fact of the matter is, the only people who are going to be getting these cars are people with large amounts of disposable income, with most of these cars are going to be sitting in a garage somewhere still wrapped in plastic.

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      12-14-2010, 05:41 PM   #54
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Here is a 302R for sale.


http://www.tcmotorsports.net/index.p...ing-boss-302r/
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      12-14-2010, 05:49 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by stingray23 View Post
But thats the problem Dave. the manufacture sets a price. Just because some people have the money to over pay for something doesnt make it right. The dealers then think that that is the going rate. Just like the Yankees over paying for players and the rest of the free agents holding out expecting to get yankee money from some other team. Its the "gotta have it first" crowd that ruins it for everyone.
You're implying that the manufacturer price is fair. On the contrary - premiums exist because the MSRP is set too low. Dealers have two ways to deal with this: either they ration (first come first serve, or give the car to 'premium customers' first), or they jack up the price. The former gives them no benefit, so its logical that they will do the latter. Either method of rationing that you choose, though, will be unfair, and will leave to displeased people. I personally prefer the auction/increase the price method - at least this way, the car isn't only for people in good standing with dealer/manufacturer.

There's also the marketing aspect of all of this - people tend to think that because something is selling 'at premium' or is hard to find, it must be a better product. Which is perfectly logical.

My (unsolicited opinion) - what Ford is doing is fine. It's annoying and irritating, but it's perfectly fair and in line with other car manufacturers.
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      12-14-2010, 07:09 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
You're implying that the manufacturer price is fair. On the contrary - premiums exist because the MSRP is set too low. Dealers have two ways to deal with this: either they ration (first come first serve, or give the car to 'premium customers' first), or they jack up the price. The former gives them no benefit, so its logical that they will do the latter. Either method of rationing that you choose, though, will be unfair, and will leave to displeased people. I personally prefer the auction/increase the price method - at least this way, the car isn't only for people in good standing with dealer/manufacturer.

There's also the marketing aspect of all of this - people tend to think that because something is selling 'at premium' or is hard to find, it must be a better product. Which is perfectly logical.

My (unsolicited opinion) - what Ford is doing is fine. It's annoying and irritating, but it's perfectly fair and in line with other car manufacturers.
Well stated!
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      12-14-2010, 08:00 PM   #57
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But thats the problem Dave. the manufacture sets a price. Just because some people have the money to over pay for something doesnt make it right. The dealers then think that that is the going rate. Just like the Yankees over paying for players and the rest of the free agents holding out expecting to get yankee money from some other team. Its the "gotta have it first" crowd that ruins it for everyone.
Listen man I'm with you..I'm not one that can afford this car at $100k. If I did I'll be honest with you I would be back in a 997.2S. However, why do people blame a dealer for selling a car at a huge profit..do you know how many cars they have to sell at or below invoice? The reason why I got a 2007 997.1S instead of the GT500 was due to ADMs. I mean they wanted $75K+ for these cars and I paid a hair over $80K (MSRPd at 90k) for my car. Believe me..sport teams overpay for their athletes all the time...ask the Cleveland Cavaliers..
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      12-14-2010, 09:27 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by pman10 View Post
You're implying that the manufacturer price is fair. On the contrary - premiums exist because the MSRP is set too low. Dealers have two ways to deal with this: either they ration (first come first serve, or give the car to 'premium customers' first), or they jack up the price. The former gives them no benefit, so its logical that they will do the latter. Either method of rationing that you choose, though, will be unfair, and will leave to displeased people. I personally prefer the auction/increase the price method - at least this way, the car isn't only for people in good standing with dealer/manufacturer.

There's also the marketing aspect of all of this - people tend to think that because something is selling 'at premium' or is hard to find, it must be a better product. Which is perfectly logical.

My (unsolicited opinion) - what Ford is doing is fine. It's annoying and irritating, but it's perfectly fair and in line with other car manufacturers.
not quite manufacturers set prices on what they think it fair for both them and the dealer. premiums exist not because the MSRP is set too low, but because we as consumers paid them(movie snacks) if it were true their wouldn't be any money profit from a regular MSRP sale. its perfectly fine to charge what you want, but Ford said it themselves they wanted real enthusiast to own this car. 100k is plain ridicules for a car set in the 40 to 50k price range and takes it away from the guy it was targeted to.
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      12-15-2010, 10:37 AM   #59
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Nice. I wonder how much they want for it?

My personal opinion - and this is based no particular experience, and with no particular technical comparison in mind - is that I would rather have the new 302S for a track car than the 302R. I realize the R has more equipment, but the new S really seems to have everything one could need, short of competing professionally in the actual race series the R is designed for of course.

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      12-15-2010, 11:12 AM   #60
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I don't understand why people complain about markups. If the market bears out the $100k price for these cars and someone is willing to pay it..then why not. Last I checked this was still the US with a free enterprise system. I think everyone knew this would happen. Whats funny is when dealers are selling cars at or even below invoice no one is complaining The fact of the matter is, the only people who are going to be getting these cars are people with large amounts of disposable income, with most of these cars are going to be sitting in a garage somewhere still wrapped in plastic.
In instances like this, there's often a large disparity in asking prices from one sale to the next. While it is true that this is a consequence of the free market, it is esentially a biproduct of misinformation or deception.

Consider the Ford GT, for example. There was a website (gone now, I believe) that essentially tracked all units sold by VIN and recorded the transaction price. It was an extremely valuable tool for the consumer, and due to the tight knit nature of the community, was fairly well known. Naturally the average transaction price fell over time. But more importantly, the low and high transaction prices were seldom far from the average. In other words, while there were markups, everyone was getting more or less the same deal The point here is that an ideal free market will be based purely upon supply and demand, and not upon consumer-perceived supply and consumer-perceived demand which unfortunately can easily be manipulated by vendors or others in the supply chain.

If, hypothetically, the vendors were cut out of the picture, and we just let the manufacture sell the product in a forthright manner with full disclosure - perhaps using an auction system as you suggest - then we would likely see much more consistent transaction prices. Stict franchise laws prevent this scenario with respect to automobile sales. These laws ultimately undermine the free enterprise system. While one should be careful in mincing moral fitness with legal fitness, it does remain hard to respect those who would knowingly take part is such a blatant dismantling of what is otherwise a very successful system.
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      12-15-2010, 01:15 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
In instances like this, there's often a large disparity in asking prices from one sale to the next. While it is true that this is a consequence of the free market, it is esentially a biproduct of misinformation or deception.

Consider the Ford GT, for example. There was a website (gone now, I believe) that essentially tracked all units sold by VIN and recorded the transaction price. It was an extremely valuable tool for the consumer, and due to the tight knit nature of the community, was fairly well known. Naturally the average transaction price fell over time. But more importantly, the low and high transaction prices were seldom far from the average. In other words, while there were markups, everyone was getting more or less the same deal The point here is that an ideal free market will be based purely upon supply and demand, and not upon consumer-perceived supply and consumer-perceived demand which unfortunately can easily be manipulated by vendors or others in the supply chain.

If, hypothetically, the vendors were cut out of the picture, and we just let the manufacture sell the product in a forthright manner with full disclosure - perhaps using an auction system as you suggest - then we would likely see much more consistent transaction prices. Stict franchise laws prevent this scenario with respect to automobile sales. These laws ultimately undermine the free enterprise system. While one should be careful in mincing moral fitness with legal fitness, it does remain hard to respect those who would knowingly take part is such a blatant dismantling of what is otherwise a very successful system.
agreed.....
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      12-15-2010, 03:41 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
In instances like this, there's often a large disparity in asking prices from one sale to the next. While it is true that this is a consequence of the free market, it is esentially a biproduct of misinformation or deception.

Consider the Ford GT, for example. There was a website (gone now, I believe) that essentially tracked all units sold by VIN and recorded the transaction price. It was an extremely valuable tool for the consumer, and due to the tight knit nature of the community, was fairly well known. Naturally the average transaction price fell over time. But more importantly, the low and high transaction prices were seldom far from the average. In other words, while there were markups, everyone was getting more or less the same deal The point here is that an ideal free market will be based purely upon supply and demand, and not upon consumer-perceived supply and consumer-perceived demand which unfortunately can easily be manipulated by vendors or others in the supply chain.

If, hypothetically, the vendors were cut out of the picture, and we just let the manufacture sell the product in a forthright manner with full disclosure - perhaps using an auction system as you suggest - then we would likely see much more consistent transaction prices. Stict franchise laws prevent this scenario with respect to automobile sales. These laws ultimately undermine the free enterprise system. While one should be careful in mincing moral fitness with legal fitness, it does remain hard to respect those who would knowingly take part is such a blatant dismantling of what is otherwise a very successful system.

I do feel we will see consistent transaction prices for these cars. Just like the Shelby GT500s when they first came out, dealers were scanning ebay among other things to where they should be as far as ADMs go. What I found amazing as far as the GT500 goes, even dealers where they would be lucky to even sell a plain jane Mustang were selling GT500s for well over sticker because they knew that people were scouring the earth looking for a good deal. Now Shelby GT500s can be had at or below MSRP, and buyers who paid such ridiculous prices got hosed. My opinion is if the market bears out the price that these dealers are asking then so be it. Otherwise they will adjust accordingly as they are now on Shebly GT500s.

BMW dealers did the same thing with the E46 M3. I remember going to Beverly Hills BMW to see the LSB E46 M3 coupe (the demo) up for sale for $80k. BMW told the dealers they didn't want the demos sold but alot of dealers sold them anyways as they saw an opportunity to make a profit, albeit a huge profit.

Another example was my 2007 997S, dealers here in LA were only going to give me $500 off of MSRP. I shopped all over the country and found a dealer in Ohio (which was burind in 6ft. of snow) that was willing to special order me a car for 10% off of MSRP.


So tell me big guy...you in line for one..
Dave
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      12-15-2010, 04:03 PM   #63
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I do feel we will see consistent transaction prices for these cars.
Maybe. I personally think that many folks will secure them at or near MSRP, while only some of them will fetch the truly insane markups such as the ebay example posted above. The people paying the big bucks will do so because they don't understand the market or because they simply have a lot of cash and not enough brains to match. They won't be paying that money because it will be the only way to get their hands on one. We'll see though - I could be wrong.

Quote:
So tell me big guy...you in line for one..
No. I am keeping the M3 for now but I have one eye on the Mustang, especially if the next generation gets a DCT option.
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      12-15-2010, 04:06 PM   #64
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not quite manufacturers set prices on what they think it fair for both them and the dealer. premiums exist not because the MSRP is set too low, but because we as consumers paid them(movie snacks) if it were true their wouldn't be any money profit from a regular MSRP sale. its perfectly fine to charge what you want, but Ford said it themselves they wanted real enthusiast to own this car. 100k is plain ridicules for a car set in the 40 to 50k price range and takes it away from the guy it was targeted to.
I was trying to illustrate a simple model of how cars are priced. You're correct - prices are ultimately set by the dealer. However, the manufacturer price is reflected in the dealer price, and in a 'perfect world' the difference between the two would be minimal at best. The reason we're seeing this discrepancy (low MRSP/invoice vs. high premiums) is that the car has limited production and availability.

That 'real enthusiast' stuff is just propaganda and marketing, IMO. Unless they make tons of BOSS 302s, it's not going to sell at such a low price. The demand is just too high. You're perfectly right that the price is ridiculous for what it's marketed as, though.
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      12-15-2010, 04:53 PM   #65
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Time is a big factor with premiums. I think it really hurt the GTR as an example though. When they first came out $90k was a common sales number on the original msrp. Consequently Nissan thought they missed the market and raised the msrp just as the hype died down. Then they were selling at a discount and they raised the msrp again. Had they left the original msrp I think they would have sold a lot more units and you wouldn't see 1 year old models still sitting on dealer lots.
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      12-15-2010, 06:40 PM   #66
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Mark ups always happen for someone who wants to be the first to have a hot new car no matter the maker. GT3/GT3 RS' usually sell for big premiums but if you work you may be able to find one for MSRP.
True, but for some models the ADM lasted several years. For the E46 M3, at least for S.Cali's perspective, you paid over MSRP until 04. The GT500 couldn't be had for MSRP until 2009, some 2 years after introduction. While look at the 09 997.2S you could get one as soon as they came out for 10% off of MSRP. A lot of this had to do with the economy of course for the PCar.


What does make me upset, is when you see the same car now on the showroom floor for 6 mos. and they are still asking for an ADM. At that time a lot of people who may have been in the market moved on to something else.

Dave
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