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      11-09-2010, 03:52 PM   #1
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M3 vs. C63 AMG Black Series



http://www.autoblog.com/2010/11/09/s...-black-series/

This set of spy photos landed in our inbox showing what appears to be a modified version of the giant-slaying Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG prepping for testing. Our spies indicate that this could be a high-powered Black Series version of the M3-killing C-Class, rumored to have around 510 horsepower. You know, because the standard 451-hp C63 just isn't sweet enough.

We know that the next-generation C-Class is due to arrive within the next couple of years (before the facelifted version arrives in 2011), so perhaps this is a sort of last hurrah for the top-dog C63. We can clearly see the tacked-on wider fender flares and front wheels similar to those that debuted on the CLK Black Series a few years back, and our spies suggest that a larger front spoiler and new rear diffuser will be added, as well. Power will still come from the same 6.2-liter V8 currently found in the C63, mated to a seven-speed AMG Speedshift transmission.

We're still a bit skeptical as to whether or not this is actually a full-on Black Series treatment. All we know is, we certainly wouldn't kick a 510-hp C63 AMG out of bed.
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      11-09-2010, 04:04 PM   #2
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Good Lord...didn't click the link are the full specs out yet including price?
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      11-09-2010, 04:37 PM   #3
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cool, but I wouldn't pay over $90k it.
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      11-09-2010, 07:22 PM   #4
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If it has AMG's new turbo V8 it will be a monster.
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      11-09-2010, 09:27 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by FStop7 View Post
If it has AMG's new turbo V8 it will be a monster.
+1

However this car needs a DCT trans like the SLS AMG to really make it a winner. If that happens coupled with the 5.5 TT motor it will be an interesting match up versus the highly modded GTRs.
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      11-09-2010, 10:32 PM   #6
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i'd be happy with the regular c63, loll
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      11-10-2010, 01:05 AM   #7
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If they offered this car with a 6-speed manual I'd be very interested. Not gona happen though, so BMW is where its at by default
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      11-10-2010, 11:40 AM   #8
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not sure yet, will wait for the final look and spec.
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      11-10-2010, 01:04 PM   #9
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Giant slaying? M3-killing? Oh, they meant comparison-loosing...

I think the last thing the C63 needs is more power. It's like they didn't get the memo...
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      11-10-2010, 03:32 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Giant slaying? M3-killing? Oh, they meant comparison-loosing...

I think the last thing the C63 needs is more power. It's like they didn't get the memo...
The reality is the C63 does slay the M3 99.9% of the time which is on the roads across the country and in Europe. Frankly it seems many people on this forum hold magazine comparison tests in a very high authority even though they don't make the payment on your car. I simply laugh at all the Top Gear, Car and Driver posts because people seem to forget these are produced for entertainment value.

You obviously fall in the VERY SMALL minority of people who get to enjoy your car in it's natural element. While in some ways I am jealous and wish I could spend some time on a road course in my car, unfortunately my schedule doesn't allow that. Again you are lucky.
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      11-10-2010, 04:58 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
The reality is the C63 does slay the M3 99.9% of the time which is on the roads across the country and in Europe.
Actually I disagree.

I personally don't doubt that the C63 is faster in a straight line, at least compared to my 6sp manual. But to my mind the performance is close enough that road conditions, traffic and ultimately confidence will have a bigger impact.

And in Europe on the derestricted Autobahn usually the win comes to the car with the highest top speed limiter.

Quote:
You obviously fall in the VERY SMALL minority of people who get to enjoy your car in it's natural element. While in some ways I am jealous and wish I could spend some time on a road course in my car, unfortunately my schedule doesn't allow that. Again you are lucky.
Thanks! The M3 is a blast on track, as I'm dead sure the C63 is as well.

But again, to me it doesn't ultimately matter if one car is faster around a track by 1 second than another. The reasons I choose the M3 over the C63 are: availability of 6sp manual, adjustable suspension and overall balance. Seeing as those things most likely won't be addressed by a C63 black series, I'd still choose my M3 over one (even if other factors such as cost were the same).
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      11-10-2010, 06:09 PM   #12
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i would take the c63 amg black over the m3 every time though. 4 doors, killer look, killer sound, exclusivity.

it's a no brainer IMO unless you are tracking, then I can understand the argument about balance and lightness. i don't think the black would be any lighter nor balance than the m3 even in stock form.

but for the price, it's gonna be hard not to think about the gt3 rs.

but i hope they put the sls amg engine into the c63 amg black. don't like turbo vacuum sound for a car like the black. it needs to sound like thunder to wear that name.
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      11-10-2010, 07:16 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
Actually I disagree.

I personally don't doubt that the C63 is faster in a straight line, at least compared to my 6sp manual. But to my mind the performance is close enough that road conditions, traffic and ultimately confidence will have a bigger impact.

And in Europe on the derestricted Autobahn usually the win comes to the car with the highest top speed limiter.



Thanks! The M3 is a blast on track, as I'm dead sure the C63 is as well.

But again, to me it doesn't ultimately matter if one car is faster around a track by 1 second than another. The reasons I choose the M3 over the C63 are: availability of 6sp manual, adjustable suspension and overall balance. Seeing as those things most likely won't be addressed by a C63 black series, I'd still choose my M3 over one (even if other factors such as cost were the same).
Well hey disagreement is completely normal.

I purchased my car as a DD. Simply I want to go to point A from point B in style and quickly. I just don't understand the many reviews and comments that get repeated on this forum about the M3's record on a road course when, however those owners have never seen a track or rarely will see a track. It's like purchasing a convertible but would rarely put the top down in nice weather. Oh well.
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      11-10-2010, 07:34 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc View Post
The reasons I choose the M3 over the C63 are: availability of 6sp manual, adjustable suspension and overall balance. Seeing as those things most likely won't be addressed by a C63 black series, I'd still choose my M3 over one (even if other factors such as cost were the same).
"For competitive driving, the driver can create his personal suspension setup: not only the level, but also the compression and rebound stages of the shock absorbers, front-axle track and camber, and rear-axle track are adjustable."

The CLK 63 AMG Black Series has a manually adjustable suspension and is considered a very well balanced vehicle. My buddy has one and it is an incredible car from the rides I have taken in it. Not to mention the sound of that engine/exhaust is absolutely to die for.

I couldn't agree more on the lack of 6-speed manual issue. It is the only reason Mercedes is never a consideration for me.
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      11-10-2010, 09:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
"For competitive driving, the driver can create his personal suspension setup: not only the level, but also the compression and rebound stages of the shock absorbers, front-axle track and camber, and rear-axle track are adjustable."

The CLK 63 AMG Black Series has a manually adjustable suspension and is considered a very well balanced vehicle. My buddy has one and it is an incredible car from the rides I have taken in it. Not to mention the sound of that engine/exhaust is absolutely to die for.

I couldn't agree more on the lack of 6-speed manual issue. It is the only reason Mercedes is never a consideration for me.
I looked at the C63 before I bought my M3. I really liked the C63 but what swayed me to the M3 was the high revving V8, EDC, Mdrive, and the DCT. I liked having all the options to set up the car on the fly and I am constantly playing with it. I change the settings on my M button almost every month. It's a bit geeky, but having all of those options to set up the car even in just every day driving conditions is fun as hell. Though since the next M3 is going I6 turbo and reportedly 440hp with some weight shed, I might be looking at the next gen C63 for my next car. That's years away though so who knows by then, the new M3 might win me over again.
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      11-10-2010, 10:12 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HBspeed View Post
"For competitive driving, the driver can create his personal suspension setup: not only the level, but also the compression and rebound stages of the shock absorbers, front-axle track and camber, and rear-axle track are adjustable."

The CLK 63 AMG Black Series has a manually adjustable suspension and is considered a very well balanced vehicle.
Could be, I've never driven one.

Although what I meant by adjustable suspension was "on the fly", aka EDC. I wouldn't know where to begin to adjust all those settings between street and track (an issue that the M3 GTS also shares apparently).

Quote:
Not to mention the sound of that engine/exhaust is absolutely to die for.
Yep, I definitely feel the M3 is lacking in the exhaust department (intake is fine). I can't wait to put an exhaust on mine.
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      11-12-2010, 09:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
+1

However this car needs a DCT trans like the SLS AMG to really make it a winner. If that happens coupled with the 5.5 TT motor it will be an interesting match up versus the highly modded GTRs.
My understanding is that the SLS uses an MCT not a DCT. The AMG Multi Clutch Transmission is essentially their very sophisticated automatic but with a multi plate clutch in place of the torque converter. As such very different to a dual clutch transmission, but a step in the enthusiasts direction for sure.
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      11-12-2010, 09:57 AM   #18
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510hp is exactly what that car needs just in case 15 minutes, which is how long the standard model takes to melt the tires down to the cords, is too long.

The current 451hp C63 handles around a track like a basset hound on wet ice.
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      11-12-2010, 11:52 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ns2000x View Post
My understanding is that the SLS uses an MCT not a DCT. The AMG Multi Clutch Transmission is essentially their very sophisticated automatic but with a multi plate clutch in place of the torque converter. As such very different to a dual clutch transmission, but a step in the enthusiasts direction for sure.
Sorry you are mistaken. Check the following link, as the DCT in the SLS AMG looks more advance then in the current E9X M3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLS_AMG
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      11-13-2010, 06:09 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
Sorry you are mistaken. Check the following link, as the DCT in the SLS AMG looks more advance then in the current E9X M3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLS_AMG
That link doesn't provide any detail. I have since however read the SLS brochure which as you state identifies it as a dual clutch transmission vs. Mercedes AMG Speedshift MCT, which is a more likely candidate to end up in a C63 variant.

I've yet to see a picture or any detail about this elusive SLS transmission and I don't follow why it is more advanced than the BMW unit in the E9X M3. I spent a fair bit of time lurking at MBWorld .org over the years, I'll go back for another educational session.

EDIT: This is the only image I've seen, and it is very difficult for me to identify where two clutch sets would sit to mange the ratios. http://www.mercedes-benz.ca/content/...ssis.0002.html
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      11-13-2010, 09:56 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeG_C63_AMG View Post
Sorry you are mistaken. Check the following link, as the DCT in the SLS AMG looks more advance then in the current E9X M3.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes-Benz_SLS_AMG
It may look more advanced, but every comparison test drive I've seen complains about it - they say it's the only aspect that lets down an otherwise amazing car.


Make no mistake, I'd love to own an SLS if I could. DCT flaws and all.
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      11-14-2010, 01:34 PM   #22
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I can only imaging the C63 is a blast to drive, especially on a daily basis. I just couldn't get over the interior and the pop up nav screen. IMO The interior on the BMW is much nicer. If a Black Series came along I might be able to get over the interior. Hopefully the next gen will have an interior I like.
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