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      02-20-2007, 01:11 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
WOW!
All I can say is WOW
With that attitude there would be Israel, USA and GB in the world...
No thanks...
Yup.
Perfect.... Just Perfect!!!
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      02-20-2007, 08:20 AM   #134
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How do we know all that??? NK had the nuke for a few months, but did not touch the south. When US had the nule (in 1945) for a few months, it used it...

Your second statement is without ANY real support. Pure media line. Yes, Israel does order its police/military to do the colleteral damage. Yes, Serbian Govt did the same. They are the same.

Why wouldn't CNN be legitimate target -- it is the same as any other media house -- censored by the Govt.
Since you were in the Serbian military, I can accept that you have first hand knowledge of such orders. So that Serbia did so is known. You were not in the IDF so you cannot speak definitively on that. I served with many Israeli officers and they took pains to avoid civilian casualties, often risking their own soldiers to do so.

CNN would not be a legitimate target because they are not a state owned and operated entity. State run media is considered part of a nation's command and control structure.
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      02-20-2007, 10:57 AM   #135
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I served with many Israeli officers and they took pains to avoid civilian casualties, often risking their own soldiers to do so.
Dont make me laugh!
Who are you anyway, sounds like you work for the Israeli propaganda machine!
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      02-20-2007, 11:17 AM   #136
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Dont make me laugh!
Who are you anyway, sounds like you work for the Israeli propaganda machine!
It does not speak well of you or your arguments when you cannot respond with anything more than a laugh. Do you have examples of the Israelis intentionally targeting civilians? If you do, bring them forward. If you do not...

Israel is a nation that has been fighting for its very survival since the day it was established. Despite this, it has refrained from the type of ethnic cleansing and mass murder we have seen in other parts of the world. In fact, Israeli Arabs have more political freedom than those in any neighboring nation.
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      02-20-2007, 03:01 PM   #137
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Looks like the war already started...............................on this forum that is
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      02-20-2007, 05:53 PM   #138
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Dont make me laugh!
Who are you anyway, sounds like you work for the Israeli propaganda machine!
Sounds like you should join Hezbollah.
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      02-20-2007, 05:59 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
It does not speak well of you or your arguments when you cannot respond with anything more than a laugh. Do you have examples of the Israelis intentionally targeting civilians? If you do, bring them forward. If you do not...

Israel is a nation that has been fighting for its very survival since the day it was established. Despite this, it has refrained from the type of ethnic cleansing and mass murder we have seen in other parts of the world. In fact, Israeli Arabs have more political freedom than those in any neighboring nation.
Ganeil,

When are you going to realize that you do not have examples of the opposite either. Or the examples of any other war events. All of the "examples" are pure media censored crap that will fit one side. Do you really believe that CNN will show Israel killing civilians??? Or do you really believe they would show Milosevic pushing Albanians out of Kosovo for their good weeks before the NATO campaign.

Get real man, untill you get the first hand info, those links you provide are useless...
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      02-20-2007, 06:04 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
Ganeil,

When are you going to realize that you do not have examples of the opposite either. Or the examples of any other war events. All of the "examples" are pure media censored crap that will fit one side. Do you really believe that CNN will show Israel killing civilians??? Or do you really believe they would show Milosevic pushing Albanians out of Kosovo for their good weeks before the NATO campaign.

Get real man, untill you get the first hand info, those links you provide are useless...
You have absolutely no idea of what first hand experience I may have.

What examples of the opposite are you referring to?

Are you denying the Serbs engaged in ethnic cleansing?
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      02-20-2007, 06:09 PM   #141
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You have absolutely no idea of what first hand experience I may have.

What examples of the opposite are you referring to?

Are you denying the Serbs engaged in ethnic cleansing?
This is not about the Serbs...
Anyway -- serbian military and police -- absolutely not.
Paramilitary -- absolutely yes.
Did Milosevic or any Govt people have the control of paramilitary -- absolutely not.
Did they know about it -- yes.
SHould Mladic & Karadzic be brought to justice -- absolutely yes.

So, to make it simple for you -- Serbs were not involved in ethnic cleansing; the paramilitary forces were, and they were of Serbian origin. Same on the other side -- Muslim and Croatian.

First hand -- yes. I was in Vukovar (uscroat can elaborate on that more) in 1991 as the member of JNA and I know what the Army did and what the paramilitary did.
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      02-20-2007, 06:31 PM   #142
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This is not about the Serbs...
Then what opposite examples were you referring to? Palestinian? Hezbollah?
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      02-21-2007, 05:24 AM   #143
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Then what opposite examples were you referring to? Palestinian? Hezbollah?
Palestinian, not Hazbolah. Hazbolah is a terrorist organization. By doing the same on the other side and saying if they can, we can too, Israelis are equating themselves with Hazbolah...
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      02-21-2007, 08:55 AM   #144
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Palestinian, not Hazbolah. Hazbolah is a terrorist organization. By doing the same on the other side and saying if they can, we can too, Israelis are equating themselves with Hazbolah...
Are you saying the Palestinians have never intentionally targeted civilians?

Are you serious?

When a suicide bomber from Hamas or the al-Asqa Brigade walks into a coffee shop or onto a bus and blows himself up, who is he targeting except civilians?

Israel never said, "if they can, we can." They said if Hezbollah was going to operate among civilians, Hezbollah would be responsible for casualties among those civilians. If you have an issue with that, you have an issue with the Geneva Conventions.
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      02-21-2007, 05:47 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Are you saying the Palestinians have never intentionally targeted civilians?

Are you serious?

When a suicide bomber from Hamas or the al-Asqa Brigade walks into a coffee shop or onto a bus and blows himself up, who is he targeting except civilians?

Israel never said, "if they can, we can." They said if Hezbollah was going to operate among civilians, Hezbollah would be responsible for casualties among those civilians. If you have an issue with that, you have an issue with the Geneva Conventions.
HAMAS -- terrorists!
Palestinians -- people with ruined lives.
Hazbollah -- terrorists!
Lebanese -- people with ruined lives.
Al Qaeda-- terrorists
Taliban -- corrupted Govt
Afghanis -- people with ruined lives
and so on...

Do you distinguish between those????
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      02-22-2007, 08:47 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by dr325i View Post
HAMAS -- terrorists!
Palestinians -- people with ruined lives.
Hazbollah -- terrorists!
Lebanese -- people with ruined lives.
Al Qaeda-- terrorists
Taliban -- corrupted Govt
Afghanis -- people with ruined lives
and so on...

Do you distinguish between those????
Hamas - elected by Palestinians to further ruin their lives

Hezbollah - elected by Lebanese to further ruin their lives

Afghanis - people with an opportunity for a better life after US-led coalition removed Taliban and their al-Qaeda partners from power.
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      02-22-2007, 05:29 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by ganeil View Post
Hamas - elected by Palestinians to further ruin their lives

Hezbollah - elected by Lebanese to further ruin their lives

Afghanis - people with an opportunity for a better life after US-led coalition removed Taliban and their al-Qaeda partners from power.
Not true at ll...
Hamas has forced regular Palestinian into that. The Govt was corrupted. Do you really think the ordinary people have a say under the dictatorship-like rule?
Hame for Hazbollah.

As for Afghanistan...removed? Maybe you meant to say TEMPORARY removed, but got interested into something else, so Taliban is slowly but surely coming back...
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      02-22-2007, 05:49 PM   #148
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Not true at ll...
Hamas has forced regular Palestinian into that. The Govt was corrupted. Do you really think the ordinary people have a say under the dictatorship-like rule?
Hame for Hazbollah.

As for Afghanistan...removed? Maybe you meant to say TEMPORARY removed, but got interested into something else, so Taliban is slowly but surely coming back...
I think the PA elections were certified by a number of international organizations and the Palestinian people have a government (Hamas-led) they imposed on themselves. The ruling party prior to the elections and the organization most capable of rigging the elections (Fatah) lost.

Hezbollah has wide spread popular support among the Shi'ite population in Lebanon and their participation in the government reflects that.

How many Afghan villages or districts would you say are under Taliban control today?
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      02-22-2007, 06:00 PM   #149
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How many Afghan villages or districts would you say are under Taliban control today?
More than 4 years ago, more that it should be...simple as that.
We went there in 2001, with a big broom, and saw tons of cock roaches in the room (Taliban/Al Qaeda in Afghanistan). We slammed them right in the middle -- killed thousand or two and the rest ran away. Then they multiplied, and now they are slowly coming back. Allowing them to exist and even worse, to re-capture a village is shameful for the military planners...
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      02-22-2007, 06:10 PM   #150
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More than 4 years ago, more that it should be...simple as that.
We went there in 2001, with a big broom, and saw tons of cock roaches in the room (Taliban/Al Qaeda in Afghanistan). We slammed them right in the middle -- killed thousand or two and the rest ran away. Then they multiplied, and now they are slowly coming back. Allowing them to exist and even worse, to re-capture a village is shameful for the military planners...
So you are recommending complete extermination?
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      02-22-2007, 06:13 PM   #151
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So you are recommending complete extermination?
Way, way, way too late now...as we already discussed that before. Should have been one thing at the time. No power has ever won on multiple fronts, neither will this one (I hope I am wrong). Hitler was a perfect example...of bad planning.
I have no solution for it now as there is 2x of them now as prior to 2001. THere is definitely not 2x of us in the Coallition...
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      02-23-2007, 08:36 AM   #152
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Way, way, way too late now...as we already discussed that before. Should have been one thing at the time. No power has ever won on multiple fronts, neither will this one (I hope I am wrong). Hitler was a perfect example...of bad planning.
I have no solution for it now as there is 2x of them now as prior to 2001. THere is definitely not 2x of us in the Coallition...
For the record, the Taliban controls the same number of Afghan districts it did four years ago, ZERO.

If no power has ever won on multiple fronts, would you care to explain the Allies' victory again Germany, Japan, and Italy in WWII and the Israeli victories in 1948, 1967, and 1973?
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      02-23-2007, 09:07 AM   #153
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For the record, the Taliban controls the same number of Afghan districts it did four years ago, ZERO.

If no power has ever won on multiple fronts, would you care to explain the Allies' victory again Germany, Japan, and Italy in WWII and the Israeli victories in 1948, 1967, and 1973?
For the Afghanistan thing -- then the media is lying all over the news in the USA, Japan and who knows where else. Terrible. But, why would they lie to us so much???

As for the fronts -- you said alies and I agree -- USSR on one side, USA on the other, Brits on the third...that works. But that was a VERY VERY VERY different coallition from the one today. So, again, show me a single power winning on multiple fronts all over the world. Israel example is a joke, right?
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      02-23-2007, 09:31 AM   #154
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For the Afghanistan thing -- then the media is lying all over the news in the USA, Japan and who knows where else. Terrible. But, why would they lie to us so much???

As for the fronts -- you said alies and I agree -- USSR on one side, USA on the other, Brits on the third...that works. But that was a VERY VERY VERY different coallition from the one today. So, again, show me a single power winning on multiple fronts all over the world. Israel example is a joke, right?
Your knowledge of history is horrendous. The media is not lying about Afghanistan. They are saying that Taliban forces have increased the number of attacks on US, Afghan, and NATO forces, that does not mean they control any ground.

Are you intentionally neglecting the defeat of Japan in WWII? Not a whole lot of Russian help defeating Japan was there? The US/UK were able to simultaneously defeat the Japanese while fighting the Germans in North Africa, Italy and western Europe. That is called fighting and winning a multi-front war.

Why are the Israeli examples a joke? They did not have to fight forces to the north, south, and east simultaneously? Or is this simply another example of how you dismiss evidence that does not comport with your delusions?
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Last edited by ganeil; 02-23-2007 at 10:37 AM.
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