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      12-26-2010, 11:07 AM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
The car will not have the most torque nor power, it will not have the best interior nor luxury. Finally it will not be the fastest and it will not handle the best. However, as an all around package it will be very nicely placed for the price and will eclipse the current car in nearly every metric that matters. So unless cylinder count is the only thing that matters, have just a touch of faith.
I don't disagree it will be a great car, but a special one? We shall see. Btw, you looking forward to mom parking next to you at the mall in an X3 that has the same engine, trans, and major suspension parts as your supposed flagship ///m? THAT still has me shaking my head.....

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e46e92
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      12-26-2010, 11:58 AM   #222
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The answer to my question:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
The car will be called i8 , NO M version .
Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
I don't disagree it will be a great car, but a special one? We shall see. Btw, you looking forward to mom parking next to you at the mall in an X3 that has the same engine, trans, and major suspension parts as your supposed flagship ///m? THAT still has me shaking my head.....

Cheers,
e46e92
That is the reason why I still think, aside the TT I6 for X3 M and Z4 M, BMW M might still develop a new "special" V8 for the M3. Next C AMG keeps a V8, and the last rumour is that the new RS4 may aswell still yet come with V8.
If M3 F32 is TT I6...
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      12-26-2010, 12:08 PM   #223
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The last true M
I'd be worried if there weren't some comments as to how the current M is the 'last true M', not the other way round. Like Swamp said, it's history repeating itself with every new generation of M cars, yet this round came quite a bit earlier than I thought.


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      12-26-2010, 12:15 PM   #224
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Thank you BMW M for having spoilt my Christmas with the 1SMC WITHOUT (worthy M) engine and and the coming M3 WITHOUT (worthy M) engine.

South, when I got the new that the M3 E92 was coming with a 400 HP V8 engine, derived from the M5, I did not doubt it would be a true M. I think before X5 M and X6 M there was never any question of true, not true M car. This is something new in history of M.
Why can't the M3 then follow the concept of the 911 GT3 Hybrid? This would be a win/win.
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      12-26-2010, 02:16 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by GoGeo View Post
All this time I thought that a sports car was about balance and performance. I need to remember that it is about sound and cylinder count.
It is about balance, performance, engine and looks... Yes engine is part of the performance, but I think the engine is so important, that it has to be considered seperatly. It doesn't matter how much torque or horse power you have. High revving proper NA is always better.
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      12-26-2010, 07:20 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
I don't disagree it will be a great car, but a special one? We shall see. Btw, you looking forward to mom parking next to you at the mall in an X3 that has the same engine, trans, and major suspension parts as your supposed flagship ///m? THAT still has me shaking my head.....

Cheers,
e46e92
I like your differentiation between great and special. It is a useful way to look at cars. Although BMW moving toward more commonality among its engines is certainly disappointing (what we have liked to criticize MB/AMG for...) you must realize that a car, much like an engine is a package or a system. The turbos, intake, exhaust, cooling, software, etc. will all be custom and M3 specific. OK, I agree, having the same block and/or internals is still a bit disappointing, nonetheless the engine as system will be very different across the various vehicles. Also the major suspension components will almost for sure be for the M3 and only the M3, just as they are today (well less the parts bin 1M...). As far as transmissions go DCTs are all about the software - I've posted on that topic long ago and somewhat extensively. Again here you will get something unique for the M3.

It is neither wise nor accurate to extrapolate from common block to common everything. That is simply false.
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      12-26-2010, 07:23 PM   #227
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Nice signature image Levi... I know that is going to piss off the BMW folks reading here...

That being said I am definitely more positive about the 1M than you are.
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      12-26-2010, 07:42 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by southlight View Post
I'd be worried if there weren't some comments as to how the current M is the 'last true M', not the other way round. Like Swamp said, it's history repeating itself with every new generation of M cars, yet this round came quite a bit earlier than I thought.


Best regards,
south
South, and swamp, this is completely different from previous "the next ///M3 won't be as good". This time around they are dumping two MAJOR mantras: you can't make a one engine fits all and FI will never be found in an ///M car........and don't even get me started on the low revving issue and SAV's get an ///M badge.

How do you guys not see this?

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e46e92
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      12-26-2010, 07:48 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
I like your differentiation between great and special. It is a useful way to look at cars. Although BMW moving toward more commonality among its engines is certainly disappointing (what we have liked to criticize MB/AMG for...) you must realize that a car, much like an engine is a package or a system. The turbos, intake, exhaust, cooling, software, etc. will all be custom and M3 specific. OK, I agree, having the same block and/or internals is still a bit disappointing, nonetheless the engine as system will be very different across the various vehicles. Also the major suspension components will almost for sure be for the M3 and only the M3, just as they are today (well less the parts bin 1M...). As far as transmissions go DCTs are all about the software - I've posted on that topic long ago and somewhat extensively. Again here you will get something unique for the M3.

It is neither wise nor accurate to extrapolate from common block to common everything. That is simply false.
Let me ask you this, when in the past did you have to carefully argue that an ///M3 was different from the other cars in the BMW lineup. Step back and think about what you are having to do: argue about the "system" and "complete package" while stating "exceptions" for the 1///M.

Tell me again how BMW hasn't completely destroyed ///M and completely lost their way? I PRAY EVERY DAY that the decisions BMW has made regarding ///M starts killing sales....but it won't, cause there are plenty of soccer moms getting railed by some rich husband who just needs to reassurance in his garage of how cool and successful he is.

Cheers,
e46e92
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      12-26-2010, 08:17 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
South, and swamp, this is completely different from previous "the next ///M3 won't be as good". This time around they are dumping two MAJOR mantras: you can't make a one engine fits all and FI will never be found in an ///M car........and don't even get me started on the low revving issue and SAV's get an ///M badge.

How do you guys not see this?

Cheers,
e46e92
We're far from 'one engine fits all'. Actually, we're talking about three different engines for the future lineup of M cars: S63 V8 for 5/6, S55 for 3/4, and S4x for 1/2.

As to the FI engine, there are two reasons to not like them (IMO), throttle response and redline. BMW will take care of the first one but not the second one. Guess everybody will have to decide for themselves if that alone is a deal breaker.

BTW: It appears that Porsche has lost it too. Rumor has it that they'll show a concept car sporting a bi-turbo V8 in Detroit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
Let me ask you this, when in the past did you have to carefully argue that an ///M3 was different from the other cars in the BMW lineup. Step back and think about what you are having to do: argue about the "system" and "complete package" while stating "exceptions" for the 1///M.
E36 M3 with the S50B30US for example? Even the S54 was an -- heavily modified -- evolution of the M50 engine.


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      12-26-2010, 08:21 PM   #231
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Kay Segler needs to go away. He's destroying the brand.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      12-26-2010, 08:38 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by southlight View Post

BTW: It appears that Porsche has lost it too. Rumor has it that they'll show a concept car sporting a bi-turbo V8 in Detroit.



Best regards,
south
How does this mean they lost it? they have an FI 911 for years, difference between Porsche and BMW is Porsche is smart enough to give its buyers an option. Something BMW appears to have chosen no to do.

This from someone who has never owned a Porsche, but who can't see how he will avoid it in the future.

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e46e92
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      12-26-2010, 09:25 PM   #233
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HMMM maybe P car is my next car
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      12-26-2010, 11:29 PM   #234
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HMMM maybe P car is my next car
I'll join you.
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      12-27-2010, 02:53 AM   #235
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Quote:
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Let me ask you this, when in the past did you have to carefully argue that an ///M3 was different from the other cars in the BMW lineup. Step back and think about what you are having to do: argue about the "system" and "complete package" while stating "exceptions" for the 1///M.
I don't see your point at all. The Ms are always HEAVILY modified versions of the regular production series car, period. That will continue.

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Tell me again how BMW hasn't completely destroyed ///M and completely lost their way? I PRAY EVERY DAY that the decisions BMW has made regarding ///M starts killing sales....but it won't, cause there are plenty of soccer moms getting railed by some rich husband who just needs to reassurance in his garage of how cool and successful he is.
The X6M is a bitchin SUV. If I ever buy an SUV I'd buy it. BMW had to compete here they can do SUVs that drive more like cars and offer a more well rounded vehicle than all of the other manufacturers (when you considre sportiness as a key part of well rounded). No I have pride as well and see the negative "image" side of M branded SUVs, but in the end it's really not a big deal to me. BMW did a good job walking the line on their SUVs and the 1M putting the M last, it's M inspired, M branded but not a full on M car.

Do note above you are describing plenty of P and F car owners as well.

If you are waiting for M sales to drop and M to become a less viable division of BMW I think you better be prepared to wait for a long time...
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      12-27-2010, 02:56 AM   #236
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We're far from 'one engine fits all'. Actually, we're talking about three different engines for the future lineup of M cars: S63 V8 for 5/6, S55 for 3/4, and S4x for 1/2.
That is a good point although I think the engine as a system is a much better way to realize the large number of differences that will exist. After all I think e46e92love's point was that non M cars and their corresponding numbered M car will get "essentially" the same engine.
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      12-27-2010, 09:05 AM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e46e92love View Post
How does this mean they lost it?
Sorry mate if the sarcasm of that post hasn't been clear enough.

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Originally Posted by shift@red View Post
Lost it? They have always made NA and FI cars in their lineup. They allow customers to choose their poision, whether it be a GT3, Carrera S, or a turbo.

I assume youve seen the 918 Spyder, which is going to have a 3.4 liter single plane v8 that is going to have 500 hp, which will not only be the best and highest specific output (~147 hp/ltr) v8 on the market (by far)is go, ing to have a stratospheric redline and going to incorporate all the new cutting edge engineering out there.
See above, no need to get defensive.

Porsche announced a "spectacular" new concept car for Detroit in two weeks. Some suggested that it might be a supercar based on or related to the 918 Spyder, yet fitted with a TT V8. If true BMW M can't be that wrong.


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      12-27-2010, 09:22 AM   #238
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Porsche announced a "spectacular" new concept car for Detroit in two weeks. Some suggested that it might be a supercar based on or related to the 918 Spyder, yet fitted with a TT V8. If true BMW M can't be that wrong.


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It would be either "spectacular" Panamera-based new 928 or "spectacular" entry-level below Boxster/Cayenne ...
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      12-27-2010, 09:32 AM   #239
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That is a good point although I think the engine as a system is a much better way to realize the large number of differences that will exist. After all I think e46e92love's point was that non M cars and their corresponding numbered M car will get "essentially" the same engine.
Understood, I just don't see how this would be different from what BMW did with the S50B30 and the S54B32 which both were (loosely) based on the M50.


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      12-27-2010, 09:39 AM   #240
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Didnt mean to sound defensive, I know that probably came off as very matter of fact. Didnt sense the sarcasm in your previous post.
A FI engine isnt a bad thing, IF done right. The 911 turbo is one of the best cars out there bar none in all apsects and is a FI engine car. Fun to drive, luxurious, supercar+ performance on and off the track and DD ability.
I think more what people are up in arms about is the fact that BMW wont have a truly special engine anymore. Porsche will have the GT3, GT3 RS, Cayman R, 918 Spyder, etc which are all special cars that are high revving NA engines. BMW on the other hand seems to be moving toward just mundane FI engines that dont offer anything particularly special, especially if the x5m/x6m and 1m are any indication.
Fair enough. However, let's please not underestimate BMW's effort with the M3 engine yet. Remember it's their most important M model which also relates to quite a big budget.


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As for that new model. I am hoping it is the 928. The renderings have been beyond gorgeous and it would be the best all around car on the market, albeit likely much more uprange than an m3/m6, but likely more Ferrari 599 from what I have been told by a Porsche Exec.
Me too, yet some indicated another supercar, so we'll have to wait and see what exactly they'll show.


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      12-27-2010, 12:09 PM   #241
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Each generation M3 has had its own sound. The E46 and E9X being the most distinct (IMO). The E46 had that nasty metallic race engine sound (and "rasp" as some called it). Many did not like the rasp at all - even many hardcore M guys who owned the car. Hence all of the aftermarket exhausts with "rasp elimination". Of course the E92 at full clip is a true banshee of a V8, albeit with a somewhat conservative exhaust volume. BMW places more thought on the sound of their cars that most of us can imagine. That effort is even heightened for the M series cars. I have every reason to believe that the sound from the new M3 will be unique again, it will have a true Motorsport sound and I can guarantee it WILL be desirable, by M enthusiasts and BMW fans in general.
I think you are spot on for everything above with one exception -- that which I've emboldened -- and from what is already being said/posted, it's probably very safe to say that there will be a significant defection factor where M enthusiasts and owners go elsewhere thanks to BMW's decision to offer an M3 that has much more in common with run-of-the-mill BMWs than was the case with its M3 predecessors (e.g. NA motor, redline increased over previous generation). And then there's been talk of "no manual transmission" in the F32 which, if realized, would simply be akin to rubbing salt into open wounds.


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This pattern of so much doubt for the M3 repeats itself like clockwork across many different criteria and across every generation. Funny thing is that all of the naysayers and critics are ALWAYS silenced. Some call me a fan boy, I simply call it confidence and observation.
You are correct about the recurring pattern of criticism and how the naysayers have been either brought around to embracing the product or silenced. Through every generational introduction I have witnessed that behavior. Three times I've found myself with an opposite view of the naysayers and detractors since I was very much looking forward to the next M3 with great interest, confident that whatever M Division produced was going to be something that was a better product within the parameters that its production philosophy trumpeted as peculiar to its M BRAND. Now, for the first time in my life, I am not on the side that I have customarily been on since what is already known is that the next M3 will not be cut from the same "cloth" as the previous four generations. And I dare say that I am not the only one that will be disillusioned with M Division if it offers an M3 that breaks with the winning design philosophy that has made the M3's so special for decades.


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The car will not have the most torque nor power, it will not have the best interior nor luxury. Finally it will not be the fastest and it will not handle the best. However, as an all around package it will be very nicely placed for the price and will eclipse the current car in nearly every metric that matters. So unless cylinder count is the only thing that matters, have just a touch of faith.
My faith is that M Division could achieve that improved all around package with a NA motor. The fact that turbos are replacing NA M motors is harder for me to stomach than would the inclusion of AWD on the M3.
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      12-27-2010, 12:19 PM   #242
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One (somewhat subjective, yes) point to be made here is that the S54B32 in particular takes the production I6 and provides a segue into the racing I6. IOW, you build the race motor using the motor out of the production sports car as a starting point.

Same thing with the S65 today, and many engines over the long and storied history of BMW M.

We don't know for sure yet, but it seems less likely that this will hold in the future, although I'm the first to admit that turbo racing motors in spec series are on the rise. Still, I just don't necessarily think we are going to see, for example, a 550hp turbo "P55" I6 being used for race spec M3 in LeMans, DTM, FIA, etc. Seems more likely they will either go small displacement (2L - 2.5L) turbo four, or stick with high revving naturally aspirated motors.


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Understood, I just don't see how this would be different from what BMW did with the S50B30 and the S54B32 which both were (loosely) based on the M50.


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south
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