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      12-03-2012, 10:10 PM   #133
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Maybe you can take that evidence (i.e. pictures) and get a second opinion from an independent specialist that is trustworthy while also finding out if can be done cheaper.

Having said that, I had my differential nearly fall out of the rear and luckily was covered by warranty. I had been complaining about it for over a month, and they gave the all clear the first time around, so probably was more an "open and shut case" because they gave a clean bill of health after I brought up the potential issue. Also, I had no impact, aggressive driving/tracking/launches/mods and someone from BMW NA did have to look at it and approve it (that's standard operating procedure for this type of expensive issue). Despite it being covered by warranty (where one could argue they could have done the minimum to fix the problem), they replaced the differential, rear subframe, fuel tank and part of the exhaust, claiming there was damage to each of these components because of the differential nearly falling out. The "list" price on all this stuff ( I saw the work order) was over $13k.

You may also want to bring it up with BMW NA, or try to negotiate with the dealer if feel you can further argue the evidence is 100% conclusive that the bolt snap was impact related (2nd opinion also), given the prevalence of this issue. The mere threat of having the car towed to someone else may help your negotiating position (the dealer does include some margin on this type of stuff). Don't think anotherBMW dealer would yield better results, since the BMW NA reps that approve these typical service other dealers in the area. Perhaps a conversation with BMW NA and/or the BMW NA rep that looked at your car may yield more cooperation/better results. Best of luck.


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Originally Posted by bvanderbilt View Post
I am affected by this and joined this forum as a result of reading this thread.

I have a 2011 (100% stock, never modified) with 25k miles on it. I currently own three M3s -- two E46s and this E92. The E92 is my 'happy' car, I love the near-telepathic throttle response and drive it after particularly long days to unwind. The car (unlike my E46s) has never seen the track, has never been abused, and has never even had a bent 19" rim.

I took the car to the dealer (where I purchased the car) after hearing a faint clunking noise from the rear. A week later I am handed a "quote" for $6000. The differential bolt is broken off at the bushing. The dealer claims the sub-frame must be replaced. The dealer had an "FSE" come look at the car, who claims the car has had bottom impact damage.

I asked to see the damage myself and the damage is an inch long maybe 1/8" deep scratch to the passenger side fuel tank and some wear on a few of the differential fins, maybe from kissing a speed bump or road debris?

The dealer wants to replace the subframe, differential bushing & bolts, and fuel tank. They claim due to the "impact" it is not a warranty issue and I have to go through insurance.

I have a perfect driving record; going through insurance will be an at-fault accident which is unacceptable to me. I did not hit anything with the car and I have a hard time believing the fuel tank damage (a scratch, basically) is correlated to the differential, especially since the fuel tank sits higher than the exhaust and there is no exhaust damage whatsoever.

Dealership technician confirmed they found no hints of abuse whatsoever and could tell I took really good care of the car, saying it was "perfect" -- but claim they have never seen a broken differential bolt before and it must have been caused by impact. They also claim that it is BMW's decision and not theirs since the FSE wrote it up as accident damage.

Not sure how to proceed, advice appreciated. I think I could have the car towed to a reputable independent and have a new bushing and bolt installed at minimal cost, since this appears from this thread to be a relatively common issue, but I feel cheated by the dealer and their response.
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      12-03-2012, 11:36 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bvanderbilt View Post
I am affected by this and joined this forum as a result of reading this thread.

I have a 2011 (100% stock, never modified) with 25k miles on it. I currently own three M3s -- two E46s and this E92. The E92 is my 'happy' car, I love the near-telepathic throttle response and drive it after particularly long days to unwind. The car (unlike my E46s) has never seen the track, has never been abused, and has never even had a bent 19" rim.

I took the car to the dealer (where I purchased the car) after hearing a faint clunking noise from the rear. A week later I am handed a "quote" for $6000. The differential bolt is broken off at the bushing. The dealer claims the sub-frame must be replaced. The dealer had an "FSE" come look at the car, who claims the car has had bottom impact damage.

I asked to see the damage myself and the damage is an inch long maybe 1/8" deep scratch to the passenger side fuel tank and some wear on a few of the differential fins, maybe from kissing a speed bump or road debris?

The dealer wants to replace the subframe, differential bushing & bolts, and fuel tank. They claim due to the "impact" it is not a warranty issue and I have to go through insurance.

I have a perfect driving record; going through insurance will be an at-fault accident which is unacceptable to me. I did not hit anything with the car and I have a hard time believing the fuel tank damage (a scratch, basically) is correlated to the differential, especially since the fuel tank sits higher than the exhaust and there is no exhaust damage whatsoever.

Dealership technician confirmed they found no hints of abuse whatsoever and could tell I took really good care of the car, saying it was "perfect" -- but claim they have never seen a broken differential bolt before and it must have been caused by impact. They also claim that it is BMW's decision and not theirs since the FSE wrote it up as accident damage.

Not sure how to proceed, advice appreciated. I think I could have the car towed to a reputable independent and have a new bushing and bolt installed at minimal cost, since this appears from this thread to be a relatively common issue, but I feel cheated by the dealer and their response.
Scares the hell out of me.. 46K almost now on my baby.

I do get that wheel hop now and again when the wheels are spinning... No clunking or anything abnormal yet (*knocks on wood*)

Really tired of hearing stories about BMW's failure to take responsibility for things like this and their propensity to incessantly blame the owner.
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      12-12-2012, 12:35 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by mitch32
Quote:
Originally Posted by e92livin View Post
Weird I have had the same problem with my M3, i was launching it off of a red light and then all of a sudden that popping noise comes and then it doesnt move when i have it in gear anymore (6MT) so i took it to BMW they basically told me to screw off in different words because they did not want to eat the job, so now I have not driven my car in about 2 months and currently waiting on parts from BMW which are back order just my luck. Im surprised to see people having the same problem, I had to replace one axle shaft, diff housing and the rear muffler.
Wow, we should honestly make a class action suite against BMW. These bolts should not fail, I never heard of another car doing this minus e36 m3s. I've heard of many ppl breaking axles on other cars never diff bolts. A $500 axle vs $10,000 diff cause of bolts is just mind boggling.
+1000
I'm out warranty and it is a concern.
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      12-12-2012, 01:07 PM   #136
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Quote:
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Wow, we should honestly make a class action suite against BMW. These bolts should not fail, I never heard of another car doing this minus e36 m3s. I've heard of many ppl breaking axles on other cars never diff bolts. A $500 axle vs $10,000 diff cause of bolts is just mind boggling.
I agree. Im in for a class action suit!
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      02-11-2013, 04:01 PM   #137
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Is there any TSB or anything like that on this problem? This seems to be a worthy TSB even though the evidence may be anecdotal.

I have 2012 model and I was assuming this would be for earlier models, but it seems it is a slate 2011 models according to this thread.

A bit disappointed to think that these cars are meant to be driven hard but at the same time you have to think whether it will cause damages such as this....
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      03-12-2013, 02:17 PM   #138
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wonder if the DEFIV diff brace is our solution: http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=814736
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      04-20-2013, 07:23 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Lute View Post
These bolts snap 99% of the time due to driver abuse and launching. The M3 is not meant for that, regardless of whether its an $80K car
Oh, really? 99%? Care to provide a source for that figure? What kind of driving is an M3 meant for, and how much of that do you think can actually happen within 800 miles?

Please note: the above is not to imply that I believe his particular case warrants a class action lawsuit or even a warranty repair. I simply don't think any of us in this thread can cite any hard numbers about this situation, much less any real facts of any relevancy, except for those few people who have dealt with this specific problem directly or who work for BMW.

If you work for BMW or have had your diff bolt snap, I apologize, particularly in the latter case.
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      04-20-2013, 07:27 PM   #140
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Lute, that is not an acceptable answer and its not acceptable for the diff bolt to break even WITH abuse. This does not happen on other performance cars even within BMW lineup. Look at M5 or even M3 GTS. They use a different setup. Drivers habits should be taken into account and testing should have uncovered it.
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      04-21-2013, 02:17 AM   #141
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It's highly probable that BMW is covering way more than 1% of bolt snap issues (as they did with mine). If that is true then it isn't only driver launching issues causing bolt failure failure. The differential design was changed in the M5, M3 GTS/CRT, and will be the case for all future M cars, including the new M3/M4. That fact alone in and of itself is an admission of a design flaw and taken together with quite a few M3 owners' getting bolt snap/full differentials replaced under warranty would point to the same conclusion, i.e. design flaw.
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      04-24-2013, 10:41 PM   #142
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Just a update for you guys.
Finally herd back from the dealer with my car being there for almost a full 7days and still have not got it back. So the service advisor says that we want to make our customers happy and blah blah and we will repair your car and all but you have to come in and sign a document stating that this damage was due to drivers error and if it ever happens again they will not cover it. That's complete bullshit and I will not be signing no such forum. If it happened at 800 miles it will most likely happen alot more then once between now and 50,000 miles! Taking the matter to my lawyer so just a heads up to all u fellow e92 m3 owners don't give these people a dime and fight for what's right.
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      09-30-2013, 04:25 PM   #143
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so in the end what happened?
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      09-30-2013, 04:41 PM   #144
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Quote:
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so in the end what happened?
Don't worry you drive too slow to do that damage. I saw you in the cts-v.
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      09-30-2013, 04:55 PM   #145
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Don't worry you drive too slow to do that damage. I saw you in the cts-v.
but i did 180mph on the straight in the V.

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      09-30-2013, 05:30 PM   #146
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but i did 180mph on the straight in the V.

That's pretty fast! I need some of that straight line speed.
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      09-30-2013, 06:08 PM   #147
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That's pretty fast! I need some of that straight line speed.
NOTHING beats the CTSVVVVVVVtec!
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      10-31-2013, 10:48 PM   #148
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I've read this thread because I heard some very light metallic pinging noise today like someone throwing a small pebble at a large empty can 5 times from the back of the car while taking a slow sharp right turn right after being stopped at a red light. This is a completely bone stock new car that was just serviced for the 1200 miles service. This occurred twice today and never before. I am a conservative and careful driver. I have never driven the car hardcore, never floored the throttle, never red lined it, and never done any launch. Do not even try that angle of question because this car was broken in as per the book and I just progressively started to do more sporty drives, nothing radical. What could this be ?? Is this thread relevant to the noise I am hearing ?

I first thought i needed the alternative differential fluid but upon checking the part # they used 2282583 Final-drive gear oil SAF-XJ which is the alternative one already, not the original 83-22-1-467-993 one.

Last edited by sunsweet; 10-31-2013 at 10:54 PM.
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      11-01-2013, 05:46 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by sunsweet View Post
I've read this thread because I heard some very light metallic pinging noise today like someone throwing a small pebble at a large empty can 5 times from the back of the car while taking a slow sharp right turn right after being stopped at a red light. This is a completely bone stock new car that was just serviced for the 1200 miles service. This occurred twice today and never before. I am a conservative and careful driver. I have never driven the car hardcore, never floored the throttle, never red lined it, and never done any launch. Do not even try that angle of question because this car was broken in as per the book and I just progressively started to do more sporty drives, nothing radical. What could this be ?? Is this thread relevant to the noise I am hearing ?

I first thought i needed the alternative differential fluid but upon checking the part # they used 2282583 Final-drive gear oil SAF-XJ which is the alternative one already, not the original 83-22-1-467-993 one.
I think BMW recommends SAF-XJ+FM (friction modifier) instead of just plain XJ diff fluid. The FM helps quiet the LSD on low speed turns like when parking the car.

bmw p/n 83 22 2 282 583 SAE 75W-140 SAF-XJ + FM BOOSTER
I think when you order this you get three 0.5L bottles. ?

CORRECT 1M Fluids List Engine, Transmission, Differential
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=620282



Also since you never heard this sound before your 1,200 mile service... maybe the diff oil is under filled. I think you should first check your dff fluid level. Then maybe switch over to the +FM fluid.

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      11-01-2013, 07:22 PM   #150
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I think BMW recommends SAF-XJ+FM (friction modifier) instead of just plain XJ diff fluid. The FM helps quiet the LSD on low speed turns like when parking the car.

bmw p/n 83 22 2 282 583 SAE 75W-140 SAF-XJ + FM BOOSTER
I think when you order this you get three 0.5L bottles. ?


Also since you never heard this sound before your 1,200 mile service... maybe the diff oil is under filled. I think you should first check your dff fluid level. Then maybe switch over to the +FM fluid.

Dack
Yes that noise did not exist before the 1200 service.
Can one check the diff fluid level electronically or is there a visual level indicator ?
Yes from the work order I can see they used 3 bottles (3.000 PC) so how could they underfill it ? (This forum DIY sticky on replacing the diff fluid says it is thick and you have to press the bottle to get it out). Thanks for the pictures !
If the level is fine should i request a change to the + FM Booster version ? The sound is not loud but suspicious. I read the bulletin about diff grinding sound but that is not what I am hearing. I hear like a sound similar to a needle that is lightly bent on a another metal piece just when it slides off the edge and springs back straight (but louder than a normal needle). It would make that pinging sound 5 to 6 times during a very slow sharp turn.

Now get this, the 1200 service was done directly by BMWNA at the processing center (ED car). I got the work order and found they had missed the MT oil change so the dealer did it when the car got here. Quite disappointing from the VDC, if they cannot get this right then who can ?! I would probably never had known had i not insisted on getting the detailed work order to check it. Do we have to ship our cars back to Germany each time service is due to get it done right ?

Last edited by sunsweet; 11-01-2013 at 07:49 PM.
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      11-02-2013, 02:23 AM   #151
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...If the level is fine should i request a change to the + FM Booster version ? The sound is not loud but suspicious. I read the bulletin about diff grinding sound but that is not what I am hearing. I hear like a sound similar to a needle that is lightly bent on a another metal piece just when it slides off the edge and springs back straight (but louder than a normal needle). It would make that pinging sound 5 to 6 times during a very slow sharp turn...
I would go back to your dealer and insist on another change to +FM fluid.

The way to check the diff(and manual trans) fluid is to have the car on a lift perfectly level and remove the 14mm hex (upper)plug. When you remove the plug the fluid level should be LEVEL with that fill hole(or sometimes a little bit spills out of it, or your put your finger inside the hole to see how low the oil is). That is the only way to check it.
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      11-02-2013, 09:24 PM   #152
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I would go back to your dealer and insist on another change to +FM fluid.
Dackelone, thanks. I drove the car today and could not hear the sound again when taking hard turns slowly. Just for the sake of it I went back to the intersection where I first heard the sound because the street also goes up a bit. No clicking.
I do not have a lift, I have not checked the level. I will see if the noise comes back in the next few days. I took the same kind of drive today than two days ago.
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      11-03-2013, 08:11 AM   #153
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Dackelone, thanks. I drove the car today and could not hear the sound again when taking hard turns slowly. Just for the sake of it I went back to the intersection where I first heard the sound because the street also goes up a bit. No clicking.
I do not have a lift, I have not checked the level. I will see if the noise comes back in the next few days. I took the same kind of drive today than two days ago.
You could use four jack stands to make the car level up in the air(and safe to go under it) and then check the diff oil level. Or maybe have an indi shop/of your original dealer check it.

When BMW has a diff that makes noise then will change the fluid first to this SAF-XJ+FM and then the tech will take the car to a parking lot and do 20 tight turns(full lock) left and then right. This will heat up the diff clutches and the fluid will get up in there. Then you won't have any more noises. But the noise is a different sort of noise from what you describe. Its more of a wobble or vibration type.

The next time you hear the noise make a video of it so you can show it to your dealer.

Good Luck,
Dackel
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      11-03-2013, 05:43 PM   #154
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Could it be a stone caught up in the rear disk brake rain shield?
Typical diff clutch pack noise is more of a rubbing groaning noise than a metallic pinging.
The oem fill for the diff is castrol SAF-XJ which already contains friction modifiers (not to be confused with the BMW customised version with even more friction modifiers). I sometime wonder if the noisy diffs are caused by dealers replacing the SAF-XJ diff oil with some other less suitable alternative LSD oil.
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