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      12-22-2006, 04:20 PM   #1
swamp2
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Detroit Auto Show 500hp rumors...

Quoted from: http://www.autospies.com/news/DETROI...scalate-10940/

DETROIT AUTO SHOW EXCLUSIVE-The plot thickens as rumors of new Lexus IS-F and 2008 BMW M3 escalate

The problem with rumors is that they’re rumors.

Until the curtain drops, the final hand is never revealed.

But that won’t stop us because it’s all about the excitement and anticipation of finding out what COULD happen BEFORE it DOES happen.

Case in point, Lexus IS-F vs. 2008 BMW M3.

Just when everyone thinks they have it figured out there is a twist just like in a great movie.

Well, in the case of these two cars, it looks like there are TWO twists this time.

The first twist comes right after we posted yesterday’s article ‘DETROIT AUTO SHOW: New Lexus F-Car to topple next BMW M3's supremacy? New details..’.

At an un-named location inside 001’s new Lexus GS450 hybrid review car, a call comes in through the Bluetooth interface about the new IS-F.

The dialogue goes something like this…

001…this is Thornbird.

I just read your top story about the IS-F and although it’s pretty accurate, I just heard from an internal Lexus mole that the IS-F will not come out of the gate with only 380HP. Hold on to your hats because my contact says they are ready to rock the auto world in one fell swoop with an IS carrying, check this…500HP!!!

When I hear this I go silent because the rumors about the 2008 BMW M3 are that it will have just under 400HP.

I think to myself could Lexus absolutely blow BMW out of the water with this upcoming announcement by over 100HP?

It would SEEM so on the surface, but then I remember a little info tidbit we reported on a few months ago when we met personally with THE man who is in charge of ALL BMW engine decisions in Munich on our X3 trip.

Even though the wonderful German beer was flowing hard that night, 001 remembered that he said the new turbo technology allows them to get AT LEAST 100HP per liter.

So I put two and two together like any good spy would and I think to myself…If Lexus is really getting ready to announce a 500HP IS, then that means they have reliable intelligence that the next M3 has to be just under or right at 500HP!!!

WOW!!! To good to be true?

It would make sense because they both need to respond to the Audi RS4 and upcoming Mercedes CL63.

One last food for thought item…If these babies get 500HP, where does that leave the M5? Could a 600-700+HP refreshed M5 be just around the corner as well?

2007 should be an interesting year in the car wars…remember where you heard it first…AutoSpies.com!
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      12-22-2006, 04:30 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Quoted from: http://www.autospies.com/news/DETROI...scalate-10940/

DETROIT AUTO SHOW EXCLUSIVE-The plot thickens as rumors of new Lexus IS-F and 2008 BMW M3 escalate

The problem with rumors is that they’re rumors.

Until the curtain drops, the final hand is never revealed.

But that won’t stop us because it’s all about the excitement and anticipation of finding out what COULD happen BEFORE it DOES happen.

Case in point, Lexus IS-F vs. 2008 BMW M3.

Just when everyone thinks they have it figured out there is a twist just like in a great movie.

Well, in the case of these two cars, it looks like there are TWO twists this time.

The first twist comes right after we posted yesterday’s article ‘DETROIT AUTO SHOW: New Lexus F-Car to topple next BMW M3's supremacy? New details..’.

At an un-named location inside 001’s new Lexus GS450 hybrid review car, a call comes in through the Bluetooth interface about the new IS-F.

The dialogue goes something like this…

001…this is Thornbird.

I just read your top story about the IS-F and although it’s pretty accurate, I just heard from an internal Lexus mole that the IS-F will not come out of the gate with only 380HP. Hold on to your hats because my contact says they are ready to rock the auto world in one fell swoop with an IS carrying, check this…500HP!!!

When I hear this I go silent because the rumors about the 2008 BMW M3 are that it will have just under 400HP.

I think to myself could Lexus absolutely blow BMW out of the water with this upcoming announcement by over 100HP?

It would SEEM so on the surface, but then I remember a little info tidbit we reported on a few months ago when we met personally with THE man who is in charge of ALL BMW engine decisions in Munich on our X3 trip.

Even though the wonderful German beer was flowing hard that night, 001 remembered that he said the new turbo technology allows them to get AT LEAST 100HP per liter.

So I put two and two together like any good spy would and I think to myself…If Lexus is really getting ready to announce a 500HP IS, then that means they have reliable intelligence that the next M3 has to be just under or right at 500HP!!!

WOW!!! To good to be true?

It would make sense because they both need to respond to the Audi RS4 and upcoming Mercedes CL63.

One last food for thought item…If these babies get 500HP, where does that leave the M5? Could a 600-700+HP refreshed M5 be just around the corner as well?

2007 should be an interesting year in the car wars…remember where you heard it first…AutoSpies.com!
I thought I had too much time on my hands! In response to the E90 M getting 500 hp rumor: NEVER HAPPEN.
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      12-22-2006, 04:55 PM   #3
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Just a quote...

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Originally Posted by devo View Post
I thought I had too much time on my hands! In response to the E90 M getting 500 hp rumor: NEVER HAPPEN.
Don't shoot the messenger. If you could not tell my entire post was just a quote of RUMORS from Autospies.com. Because all we have right now, officially, is NOTHING but RUMORS I don't feel bad about posting more of them. Personally I also think there is no chance for the new M3 to get 500 hp. I do think the most common figure we have heard 400 hp even will be significantly exceeded and BMW may very well underrate the car (335i is, and M5 likely is as well).
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      12-22-2006, 06:04 PM   #4
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I usually love autospies, but that is just garbage.

E92 M3 > IS-F, PERIOD. Me thinks the M3 will be rated at 425HP but that number will be very underrated like the 335i (BMW says it has 300HP but it dynos 275 to the rear wheels on average, which means its closer to 325crankHP) The crank HP on the new M3 will hopefully be around 450HP.

That coupled with the weight difference that that POS toyota will have, will be enough to neutralize all car threats in its category.
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      12-22-2006, 08:10 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by replicat View Post
That coupled with the weight difference that that POS toyota will have, will be enough to neutralize all car threats in its category.
Comments like this make you very hard to take seriously. Just because a car is not a BMW doesn't make it something to be dismissed.

The Lexus is300 was a good car. If Lexus wants to compete with the M3 I would have to go test drive one. It may or may not be better but your comments of "its a toyota, therefore inferrior" are just silly. Odds are it would feel like a 335 on steroids.
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      12-22-2006, 11:00 PM   #6
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Any Lexus car (even if its "better" then the E46/E92 M3) will have a hard time taking that market away from BMW. Regular BMWs are at least one level above Lexus in the "cache" category. Ford, Dodge, american cars, etc sit at the bottom (well, technically Kia sits at the bottom), then its the Japanese cars above them, then its the Japanese luxury cars and then european cars (audi, etc), then BMW / Mercedes, then the various super cars. A BMW M is at least 2 levels above the regular BMWs, if not more. M just has such a rich history, people want the name. Sort of like Shelby Cobras (although Mustangs have always been crap).
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      12-22-2006, 11:07 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Don't shoot the messenger. If you could not tell my entire post was just a quote of RUMORS from Autospies.com. Because all we have right now, officially, is NOTHING but RUMORS I don't feel bad about posting more of them. Personally I also think there is no chance for the new M3 to get 500 hp. I do think the most common figure we have heard 400 hp even will be significantly exceeded and BMW may very well underrate the car (335i is, and M5 likely is as well).
No disrespect intended but I' so tired of hearing/seeing all of the blah, blah, blah, nonsense regarding the M3. Just because it's on the web doesn't mean it has to be posted. A little common sense should prevail. If someone said it would have 600 hp, would you post it?

It's not rocket science, 400-430 hp, 320 something tq., 3450-3550 weight, 19inch wheels, 8500 redline, SMG III and optional manual. That pretty much sums it up with some modest room for error. It will look like an aggressive 335 What's so shocking and newsworthy. It'll be great, but come on.

And who says torque is for old men. It's for street cars. Who wants a high hp low torque engine for the street. HP wins races, WTF. Go to a race track. A high hp no torque motor for the street is basically useless.
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      12-22-2006, 11:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SledgeHammer View Post
Any Lexus car (even if its "better" then the E46/E92 M3) will have a hard time taking that market away from BMW. Regular BMWs are at least one level above Lexus in the "cache" category.
Here I thought it was about buying a car you wanted to own and drive. I forgot I was susposed to consult the "Cache" list to see what I am susposed to want.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Devo
And who says torque is for old men. It's for street cars. Who wants a high hp low torque engine for the street. HP wins races, WTF. Go to a race track. A high hp no torque motor for the street is basically useless.
I have spent a good amount of time at the track, ~3000 track miles just this year. For a street car you a wide enough power band you are not stressing the car in normal use. Pretty much any car in the 10lbs/hp range will do just fine getting you to work. When its go time I don't want some silly, heavy, high TQ drive train just because people don't know which gear the car belongs in when the driver want to accelerate.
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      12-23-2006, 01:30 AM   #9
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Criticism accepted

Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
No disrespect intended but I' so tired of hearing/seeing all of the blah, blah, blah, nonsense regarding the M3. Just because it's on the web doesn't mean it has to be posted. A little common sense should prevail. If someone said it would have 600 hp, would you post it?
Agreed. I guess I (and I know most others here) feel so darn information starved that any little "morsel" is kind of a treat right now. Discretion is important and I have criticized others on this forum myself for posting nonsense marketing type of material. Although, like I said, I would bet against 500 hp, yet there is a new hp war and cars like the CL63 AMG are going to push the limit. BMW is behind the RS4 (in terms of the release date) but may be ahead of many of its eventual competitors. They need significant foresight to stay ahead of the pack. Therefore I believe actual dyno bhp, at the crank, is likely to be significantly more than the 400 even number floating around. Last but not least Autospies.com is generally a good source of information. If they posted "600 hp" I would post it here with a double dose of +
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      12-23-2006, 10:04 AM   #10
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I would very surprised if any of the following does not happen:

(1) ISF marginally faster than M3 in a straight line
(2) M3 faster than ISF on the track
(3) ISF cheaper than M3
(4) ISF offering more interior luxury than M3

To take any of the BMW-M market Lexus has to offer a car at a price that might even be losing them money in the first year. They did this back in the very early 1990's in a different category with the introduction of the Lexus LS400. As soon as the car became a "hit" they raised prices.

They won't take the "enthusiasts" and "fanboys" from the BMW brand but that part of the market is probably low single digits. I sure plan on checking out both cars when they come out. The more choices the better.

:rocks:
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      12-23-2006, 10:09 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Here I thought it was about buying a car you wanted to own and drive. I forgot I was susposed to consult the "Cache" list to see what I am susposed to want.




I have spent a good amount of time at the track, ~3000 track miles just this year. For a street car you a wide enough power band you are not stressing the car in normal use. Pretty much any car in the 10lbs/hp range will do just fine getting you to work. When its go time I don't want some silly, heavy, high TQ drive train just because people don't know which gear the car belongs in when the driver want to accelerate.
Agreed.

I don't drive on the track but I still want a high revving, high hp motor, with a wide torque band for the street. Contempory sports/GT cars achieve that quite well.

What I don't want is a powerband like the one in your Lotus for street use. You track your cars and obviously track them a lot. So the Elise serves it's intended purpose very well and is a great track car with limited street use; imo.

For me, what I grossly dislike is a street performance car that can't get out of it's own way until the revs hit 5k or higher. As much as that's a blast in the right conditions, it's quite boring in most street situations. I don't know about others but I love knowing that while trolling along on whatever road that I have the torque spread to nail the throttle and propel myself with that pinned to the seat feeling. I equally want to know that my pricey whatever car has the stuff to take on and whoop my takers when the time comes. With that said, the car has to be accomplished in the other areas as well; i.e. good top end rush, handling, somewhat lightweight etc..

I would think that we feel the same way with your focus being a track oriented car. For example I love the 997 GT3, but not for the street. It's the bomb on full boogie but below 6k it's basically a dog.

I do agree that there are too many ignorant drivers out there that have the funds to buy the heavy torquey cars that are speed missiles but require no talent to drive them. What's even worse is that then they believe that because the cars are fast that they are SPORTS cars and they are TALENTED drivers.

You do a LOT of track time. It must be a blast. Congrates. The Elise must be fantastic on a closed course.
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      12-23-2006, 01:15 PM   #12
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Cool...
I guess it's time for me to go on Lexus forum because it has more HP!!!
Sorry but I am nowhere near interested haha
Thanks for sharing.
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      12-23-2006, 02:31 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coaster View Post
I would very surprised if any of the following does not happen:

(1) ISF marginally faster than M3 in a straight line
(2) M3 faster than ISF on the track
(3) ISF cheaper than M3
(4) ISF offering more interior luxury than M3
Agree on 2 & 4. Not enough info for 1 & 3. Remember there are the same guys that built the old Supra, an awesome car for its day.

The other thing I think puts me in the minority is I don't care about minor diffrences in acceleration. Face it, the 335 and E46 M3 both already are near the limit of what you can legaly use in terms of power on the street.
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      12-23-2006, 02:55 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by devo View Post
Agreed.

I don't drive on the track but I still want a high revving, high hp motor, with a wide torque band for the street. Contempory sports/GT cars achieve that quite well.

What I don't want is a powerband like the one in your Lotus for street use. You track your cars and obviously track them a lot. So the Elise serves it's intended purpose very well and is a great track car with limited street use; imo.
Its intersting how the BMW and Lotus/Toyota motors differ. Both cars have pretty much the same power to weight. Around town you don't notice either car hurting for torque. For those 20-50% efforts you need both work fine.

Where the BMW excells and the lotus does't is in merging on the highway. The M3 has plenty of power in the 3-6 range. No real stress on the engine but all the acceleration you really need fo anything sane getting on the highway. The Lotus has a crator in its powerband right there so it feels a bit anemic until you hit 6200 at which point all hell breaks lose.

The reason I don't like TQ as a car stat is you cannot tell which behavior you are getting from it.
The M3 3450lbs / 273tq = 12.6
The Elise 1900lbs / 138 = 13.7

A minor but not big diffrence. The big diffrence is most of the M3s TQ is usable over a much wider range. The peak is at 4900 vs 7000. The powerband in the M3 is really about 3000-8000 vs 6200-8000. Getting the car over 3000 rpm is no problem. Winding the elise up to 6200 to go gets everyones attention, including the cops.

A much, much better way at looking at how good a car will be around town is powerband (peak hp rpm - peak tq rpm) / peak hp rpm.

Compare
(7900-4900)/7900 = 38%
(8000-7000)/8000 = 12.5%
This is the real reason BMW is known for there great engines. Plenty of power when you need it while still having more than enough the rest of the time.

The BMW powerband is superior at the track also. There are turns where the lotus falls off the 3rd gear cam but not by enough to justify the shift. In the BMW you would never even notice as you would still be well in the engines powerband.
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      12-23-2006, 06:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devo View Post
I love the 997 GT3, but not for the street. It's the bomb on full boogie but below 6k it's basically a dog.
a "dog"? Really? When did you drive a 997 GT3 and what did you do to get the impression it was a "dog" below 6000rpm?

I love torque. Call me a torque dork. :rocks: I hope the new M3 has "enuff."

10 track weekends per year, 300 miles per track weekend... not too hard to get to 3000 track miles a year....
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      12-24-2006, 08:32 AM   #16
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a "dog"? Really? When did you drive a 997 GT3 and what did you do to get the impression it was a "dog" below 6000rpm?

I love torque. Call me a torque dork. :rocks: I hope the new M3 has "enuff."

10 track weekends per year, 300 miles per track weekend... not too hard to get to 3000 track miles a year....

I owned a 2005 997 S and a 2007 997 turbo, two E46 M3's (one slightly modified the other stock). Although, I never owned or even drove a 997 GT3, I believe that I am quailfied to offer my opinion, having been fortunate enough to own these cars. From everything I've read, the GT3 actually fails to even match the torque of the 997 S below 5000rpm and on;y matches it at peak. Albiet, the hp comes on hard at 6k, but that's not a street car. Most road tests reveal that the GT3 will lose a roll on race against the 997 S. I didn't think that the 997 S had that much power, so I would think that the GT3 would feel the same (below 6K)>

Don't take me too literally, "dog" may be extreme but I'm confident that it's not a lot of fun on the street in the low to mid range rev range.
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      12-24-2006, 02:27 PM   #17
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Too many flaws with this article.

For one, hasn't been confirmed that the E92 M3 will have more than 400hp?

Two, We've all read that the World debut will be in Frankfurt in Sept, where it should be.

Lastly, 500HP in the IS?!?!?!? I'd be very surprised
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      12-26-2006, 02:59 AM   #18
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Comments like this make you very hard to take seriously. Just because a car is not a BMW doesn't make it something to be dismissed.

The Lexus is300 was a good car. If Lexus wants to compete with the M3 I would have to go test drive one. It may or may not be better but your comments of "its a toyota, therefore inferrior" are just silly. Odds are it would feel like a 335 on steroids.
Never said that toyota is inferior, I said that the car is a POS as compared to the M3.

Free speech, so you know what to do.
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      12-29-2006, 12:29 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by SpencerM3 View Post
Too many flaws with this article.

For one, hasn't been confirmed that the E92 M3 will have more than 400hp?

Two, We've all read that the World debut will be in Frankfurt in Sept, where it should be.

Lastly, 500HP in the IS?!?!?!? I'd be very surprised
Don't be. It's coming, probably sometime next spring/early summer. Even so, I still think the new M3 will be more fun to drive primarily because of it's steering feel and handling.
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      12-29-2006, 12:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpencerM3 View Post
Too many flaws with this article.

For one, hasn't been confirmed that the E92 M3 will have more than 400hp?

Two, We've all read that the World debut will be in Frankfurt in Sept, where it should be.

Lastly, 500HP in the IS?!?!?!? I'd be very surprised
Like I already said the article is probably mostly crap. However, AFAIK, NOTHING has been confirmed about the car yet, hp, above or below 400, nor a debut show. If those have been confirmed please share the source.
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      01-04-2007, 11:55 AM   #21
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Agree on 2 & 4. Not enough info for 1 & 3. Remember there are the same guys that built the old Supra, an awesome car for its day.

The other thing I think puts me in the minority is I don't care about minor diffrences in acceleration. Face it, the 335 and E46 M3 both already are near the limit of what you can legaly use in terms of power on the street.
I am most sure about #3. Mark my words, the ISF will definitely be CHEAPER than the M, the only question is how much cheaper. To do otherwise will be suicide for Toyota's new car.
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      01-04-2007, 02:51 PM   #22
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A much, much better way at looking at how good a car will be around town is powerband (peak hp rpm - peak tq rpm) / peak hp rpm.
I like area under the curve myself:

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/ed..._technobabble/
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